Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag. - Page1

Oct 1, 2005 2:00:30 AM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002

Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Click on attachment above to download the PDF file.

/uploads/144061-CaymanS.pdf

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2005 7:31:54 AM

Gauss: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Luxembourg , Luxembourg; Posts: 5822, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 3, 2003; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Thanks for sharing Ron

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2005 1:32:29 PM

mcdelaug: Expert; Loc: Fort Worth, Texas , United States; Posts: 1919, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 3, 2004; Reply to: Gauss

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Quote:
Gauss said:
Thanks for sharing Ron

Thanks Ron, enjoyed it.

When Porsche fully commits to building the best mid-engine car they can, I'll buy one. As long as the Cayman is intentionally crippled to protect the 911, I'm not interested.

mcdelaug

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2005 1:57:03 PM

DaveC: Veteran; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 1068, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 16, 2005; Reply to: mcdelaug

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Hmmm..... I thought they already built the best mid-engine car they can, the Carrera GT.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2005 3:03:59 PM

Dr. Phil: Rennteam Master; Loc: Denmark , Denmark; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 30, 2004; Reply to: DaveC

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Quote:
DaveC said:
Hmmm..... I thought they already built the best mid-engine car they can, the Carrera GT.

My thought exactly.
But McDelaug is right about the Cayman being crippled, too.
A 100% perfect (meaning more BHP and probably a few tweaks here and tghere) would most likely make the Cayman a 911-basher - and that would be bad business for Porsche in the long run.
The 911 is the icon of sportscars, and you don't trash an icon.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2005 3:11:03 PM

mark34: Junior; Loc: Austin, TX; Posts: 62, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2004; Reply to: Dr. Phil

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

crippled...c'mon! 0 to 60 in the high 4's, reviews suggesting strong torque and pulling power through the rev band? More HP would be nice, but this is a fast car, hardly crippled.

Next
Threads

Oct 1, 2005 10:44:01 PM

mcdelaug: Expert; Loc: Fort Worth, Texas , United States; Posts: 1919, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 3, 2004; Reply to: mark34

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

I stand by my words. The Cayman is bound to be a good car, but Porsche could easily build a better car. Dr. Phil is exactly right-Porsche intentionally limits the performance of their mid engine cars (except for the CGT of course) to protect the icon "cash cow" 911.

My Boxster is a fun sportscar...when the weather's good I can put the top down and cruise around for fun. It's a relatively fuel efficient daily driver and it's sporty enough to be entertaining on the weekends or for a day at the track. I see (and Porsche markets) the Cayman as a different beast-it's supposed to be a pure "driver's car". For me, the blatant crippling of such a superb design by offering only a recycled engine design from last generation's 911 is a slap in the face. I am oversimplifying a bit for sake of emphasis, but I think you get the idea.

When Porsche builds a mid-engine car with the same level of aggression as the Carrera S or the 911 turbo, I'll be interested, even if its profit margin is similar to those products. But as long as the Cayman is treated as the Porsche "step child," I'll just stick to my 987S.

This should in no way lessen anyone's enjoyment of their Cayman. I'm sure it will be a great car. But for me, a "driver's car" shouldn't be such an obvious compromise for the sake of product positioning and profits.

mcdelaug

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2005 1:36:08 PM

OCEAN: Expert; Loc: US; Posts: 1334, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: mcdelaug

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

mcdelaug good post

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2005 1:57:41 PM

DaveC: Veteran; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 1068, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 16, 2005; Reply to: OCEAN

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

The fully "developed" Cayman, if produced, will be at least $85-90K USD, perhaps more. Then the grousing will be about the pricing along with the tired refrain, "could've had a 911". It would be more honest to simply admit that the real problem with this car is that it is overpriced based on perceptions of cost/performance ratio. If the current CaymanS listed for $48,900 rather than $58,900 I doubt the level of performance would be considered "crippling". Yes, the car is overpriced, but I think all Porsche's are overpriced and always have been. The irony is that when Porsche actually offers a "value" car it is inevitably derided as an imposter (914 (aka VW) and 924 (aka Audi).

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2005 2:52:20 PM

mcdelaug: Expert; Loc: Fort Worth, Texas , United States; Posts: 1919, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 3, 2004; Reply to: DaveC

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

I hear what you're saying Dave, but not everyone wants a rear-engine car. I appreciate the 911 for what it is, but I prefer mid-engine vehicles. And I'm willing to accept the profit margin that Porsche demands for their vehicles too, so I won't be complaining about the price, even if it is 90K or so. I simply want Porsche to offer me a mid-engine car that has the same level of ability as their best rear engine products. From the magazine reviews and my amateur understanding of physics I am certain a mid-engine platform could be developed to have at least an equal level of performance as the 911, probably more.

Porsche already builds the best rear-engine car on earth. One could argue that the Cayenne is the best SUV too. They should see the Cayman as an opportunity to offer their customers the best mid-engine car money can buy. If Porsche prices it so that they make the same profit with either the 911 or the Cayman, they shouldn't care TOO much which one I'm buying.

I suppose Porsche's strategy is
1) expend a minimum amount of development $ to make a sportier version of the Boxster series that infringes on the lower limit of 911 performance
2) watch to see if it is a commercial success
3) (this is the part I hope for) if there is adequate demand, roll out higher priced versions that offer perfromance equal to the 911 at its pricepoints

In the absence of a more "developed" Cayman, I'll be looking at some other manufacturer for my next sports car, one that is fully committed to the mid-engine concept.

mcdelaug

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2005 3:16:35 PM

DaveC: Veteran; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 1068, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 16, 2005; Reply to: mcdelaug

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Yes, I think you are absolutely correct in your analysis of Porsche's strategy. However, I believe It is going to be very difficult for Porsche to successfuly sell a high performance $90K Cayman without a commitment to race the car in some venue. In the "old days" Porsche would have been willing to financially support an additional factory effort for the Cayman platform. I'm not so sure now. Porsche has learned that except for hardcore enthusiasts, it's not necessary to win on Sunday to sell on Monday.

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2005 4:37:06 PM

MikeN: Senior; Loc: Arizona; Posts: 595, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2004; Reply to: mcdelaug

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Quote:
mcdelaug said:
I stand by my words. The Cayman is bound to be a good car, but Porsche could easily build a better car. Dr. Phil is exactly right-Porsche intentionally limits the performance of their mid engine cars (except for the CGT of course) to protect the icon "cash cow" 911.

My Boxster is a fun sportscar...when the weather's good I can put the top down and cruise around for fun. It's a relatively fuel efficient daily driver and it's sporty enough to be entertaining on the weekends or for a day at the track. I see (and Porsche markets) the Cayman as a different beast-it's supposed to be a pure "driver's car". For me, the blatant crippling of such a superb design by offering only a recycled engine design from last generation's 911 is a slap in the face. I am oversimplifying a bit for sake of emphasis, but I think you get the idea.

When Porsche builds a mid-engine car with the same level of aggression as the Carrera S or the 911 turbo, I'll be interested, even if its profit margin is similar to those products. But as long as the Cayman is treated as the Porsche "step child," I'll just stick to my 987S.

This should in no way lessen anyone's enjoyment of their Cayman. I'm sure it will be a great car. But for me, a "driver's car" shouldn't be such an obvious compromise for the sake of product positioning and profits.

mcdelaug

mcdelaug -

You make some good points, but my question to you would be.....why even mess with a 987S then? If Porsche's mid-engine offerings (sans the CGT) are so "crippled" then why even give them money in the first place for the Boxster?....In reality it is more crippled than the Cayman will be....lower power, softer suspension, etc.

There are many different definitions of a drivers car with power not being the only factor.....for some its handling, for others it may be braking, for most its a combination of many things. Before I selected the Cayman I had a few other cars on my short list....most of which were faster than a Cayman, but after driving most of them and then several Boxsters and 911s.....the Porsches were truly the "drivers cars" of the bunch hands down.

The fact is the Cayman will be fantastic drivers car with few equals.....if at all in the US. There will always be faster Vettes & Vipers if you like that sort of drive....I don't.....and I think the Cayman will be the best drivers car out of all of them. Most likely it will be one of the most enjoyable Porsches ever to be produced....

Porsche, like all other car manufactures could make a "better" car if they wanted to. So far they have a very winning combination and seem to be selling just about everything they offer.....including a 987S to you. In their mind they already got what they wanted from you.....another sale of a car they offer.....not a future sale of a car they really don't want to sell at this time.

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2005 8:39:10 PM

mcdelaug: Expert; Loc: Fort Worth, Texas , United States; Posts: 1919, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 3, 2004; Reply to: MikeN

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Hi Mike,

I tried to make my case for why I have a 987S in that paragraph of mine you quoted. For me, the 987S is more versatile than the Cayman. With the softop you can enjoy it in ways that aren't available to a hardtop car. As such it is a good match for me-I drive it to work everyday, play around with it on the weekends, my wife likes driving around in it with the top down. A Cayman would fill a different role for me-billed as a "driver's car" it needs to be held to a higher performance standard than the Boxster. I realize that everyone has different objectives when car shopping, and that's perfectly fine. The point I've been trying to make all along is that I won't be shopping for a Cayman until Porsche offers a version that is closer to the level of performance they offer in their best rear engine vehicles. I'm not interested in a car that's "10% more car" than my 987S. I would be interested in a mid-engine Porsche that's on equal footing with the C2s or TT.

mcdelaug

Next
Threads

Oct 2, 2005 8:52:07 PM

Gauss: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Luxembourg , Luxembourg; Posts: 5822, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 3, 2003; Reply to: mcdelaug

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

That all makes perfect sense if you already own a Boxster. But I think the Cayman is for those, who don't own a Boxster, and don't want to (or can't) buy a 911 and want to drive an agile sportier mid-engined car.
I believe the Cayman is a bit too expensive yes, but I also believe the car makes sense!
We shouldn't forget that Porsche might be testing new grounds with this car, in order to improve their legendary 911.

Next
Threads

Oct 3, 2005 12:44:11 AM

DamienL: Veteran; Loc: Ontario, Canada; Posts: 890, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 14, 2005; Reply to: Gauss

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Thanks Ron!

That article was very good, and this is a great thread. There have been so many intelligent points brought up so far.

Next
Threads

Oct 3, 2005 2:59:22 AM

Steve L.: Newbie; Loc: WA; Posts: 6, Gallery; Registered on: May 23, 2005; Reply to: DamienL

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Why doesn't Porsche offer multiple engine choices for the Cayman? (similar to Mercedes where you can almost get any engine for any model) If the Cayman had the engine choices of the 911 (and comparable price), I would still choose the Cayman.

Next
Threads

Oct 3, 2005 6:16:56 AM

Gauss: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Luxembourg , Luxembourg; Posts: 5822, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 3, 2003; Reply to: Steve L.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Quote:
If the Cayman had the engine choices of the 911 (and comparable price), I would still choose the Cayman.

Who wouldnt? It would perform better than the current 911...

Next
Threads

Oct 3, 2005 3:00:03 PM

mcdelaug: Expert; Loc: Fort Worth, Texas , United States; Posts: 1919, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 3, 2004; Reply to: Gauss

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Quote:
Gauss said:

Quote:
If the Cayman had the engine choices of the 911 (and comparable price), I would still choose the Cayman.

Who wouldnt? It would perform better than the current 911...

Steve and Gauss, that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Yeah!

IMO, Porsche needs to expand their thinking. Right now they conceive of the 911 as "the Porsche sportscar." And the Boxster is the "athlete among the roadsters" (from their own advertising). But where does this leave the Cayman? I think they should start marketing the 911 using terms like "classic", "icon", "2+2", "unique rear-engine dynamics" but AVOID describing it as the only true Porsche sportscar. This would then allow them to begin marketing more advanced versions of the Cayman as sportscars in their own right, but with terms like "mid-engine", "supreme handling and balance", etc. If Porsche were to differentiate these vehicles (in their advertising) based on their engine layout, handling differenecs, seating, etc and not maintain the "911 uber alles" hierarchy they would have much more freedom to develop both lines of vehicles to their full potential. As things are, Porsche is conceding the high-end mid-engine market to the Italians.

Think of it this way: With a budget of $200K would you buy a Cayman S or an F430? F430 of course! What if you could buy a TT Cayman with 480hp for $110-130K? Here it becomes less clear-I would probably pick the Cayman over the Ferrari. That car would have 85-90% of the CGT's performance (alhtough clearly not the same level of style). I can only imagine the aggravation it would cause Ferrari and Lamborghini. Anyway, thanks for the good discussion, I've enjoyed it a great deal.

mcdelaug

Top
Threads

Board	Subject	Last post	Views	Replies
Porsche	SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II)	5/3/24 3:40 PM watt	802589	1803
Porsche	Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos)	4/7/24 11:48 AM Boxster Coupe GTS	448368	565
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022	3/12/24 8:28 AM DJM48	265914	323
Porsche	The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche	1/30/24 9:18 AM RC	89914	45
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift	3/15/24 1:23 PM CGX car nut	6389	50
Porsche	The moment I've been waiting for...	2/1/24 7:01 PM Pilot	885318	1364
Porsche	992 GT3	7/23/23 7:01 PM Grant	832032	3868
Porsche	GT4RS	4/21/24 11:50 AM mcdelaug	399075	1454
Porsche	Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!	2/10/24 4:43 PM nberry	395388	1526
Others	Tesla 2 the new thread	12/13/23 2:48 PM CGX car nut	381893	2401
Porsche	Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design	7/3/23 12:30 PM Porker	370646	797
Porsche	Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour	5/12/24 6:23 PM blueflame	293291	669
Porsche	Collected my 997 GTS today	10/19/23 7:06 PM CGX car nut	265067	812
Lambo	Huracán EVO STO	7/30/23 6:59 PM mcdelaug	243775	346
Lotus	Lotus Emira	6/25/23 2:53 PM Enmanuel	238454	101
Others	Corvette C8	10/16/23 3:24 PM Enmanuel	222093	488
Others	Gordon Murray - T.50	11/22/23 10:27 AM mcdelaug	172932	387
Porsche	Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS	6/11/23 5:13 PM CGX car nut	144802	144
BMW M	2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now	12/29/23 9:04 AM RC	120916	303
Motor Sp.	2023 Formula One	12/19/23 5:38 AM Whoopsy	111285	685
Porsche	2022 992 Safari Model	3/7/24 4:22 PM Whoopsy	85450	239
AMG	Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758	2/23/24 10:03 PM blueflame	75665	297
Porsche	992 GT3 RS	3/3/24 7:22 PM Whoopsy	54703	314
Motor Sp.	Porsche 963	5/13/24 3:18 PM Grant	26156	246
Ferrari	Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6)	1/21/24 4:29 PM GT-Boy	21629	103
BMW M	2022 BMW M5 CS	4/8/24 1:43 PM Ferdie	20047	140
AMG	G63 sold out	9/15/23 7:38 PM Nico997	16986	120
AMG	[2022] Mercedes-AMG SL	4/23/24 1:24 PM RC	14208	225
Motor Sp.	24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018	5/25/23 10:42 PM Grant	11432	55
Porsche	Porsche Mission X Hypercar	12/3/23 8:52 AM 996FourEss	11183	63

Crown

Forum - Thread

Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Re: Cayman S in Excellence Mag.

Forum

Boards