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    Feb 25, 2005 10:54:00 AM

    Dilinger
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    Break In Period

    Please share your thoughts with me.

    During break in period i followed this rule

    First 500 km until 2,500 rpm
    Between 500 km -1000 km until 3,000 rpm
    Between 1000km -1500 km until 3,500 rpm
    Between 1500km -2000 km until 4,000 rpm
    Between 2000km -2500 km until 4,000 rpm(sometimes 5,000 rpm)

    Until now i have done 2150 km .

    What do you think about this theory? Good or Bad?

    I intend to continue break in period until 3,000 KM as the manual sais.
    Between 2,500 -3,000 km i intend to drive until 5,000 rpm

    P.S Yesterday with 2100 km on the tacho i made i mistake and did not put the second gear correct thus reaching 7,500 rpm without any gear!!
    Do you think this could make any damage to the engine?

    Feb 25, 2005 11:06:49 AM

    muhri
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    Reply to: Dilinger

    Re: Break In Period

    Dilinger, I don't think so.. I actually drove it like I stole it after around 800km.. from 40km - 800 I was variyng throttle but didn't exceed 5000rpm prior to 800km and now at 1150km.. Its not like I am killing the engine all the time but I do give it full throttle everynow & then.

    Feb 25, 2005 11:10:04 AM

    Dilinger
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    Reply to: muhri

    Re: Break In Period

    mihri you too have 1150? me too r we driving side by side?


    Im just thinking of yesterday incident that i pressed the engine to 7,500 rpm ,just thinking if i damaged it

    Feb 25, 2005 11:36:28 AM

    jjr1
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    Reply to: Dilinger

    Re: Break In Period

    You show amazing restraint compared to me. As soon as the engine is warm I have nailed it from 20miles ;-)

    Feb 25, 2005 11:38:50 AM

    Dilinger
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    Reply to: jjr1

    Re: Break In Period

    but this is not correct and you know it man

    Feb 25, 2005 11:49:12 AM

    jjr1
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    Reply to: Dilinger

    Re: Break In Period

    Yeah but its a hell of a lot more fun ;-)

    Feb 25, 2005 3:38:29 PM

    muhri
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    Reply to: jjr1

    Re: Break In Period

    Dilinger, if I read correctly you are at 2150 - I'm at 1150km right now. its raining today, otherwise, i'd be riding my 997s right now - Trust me it won't hurt your engine - if I were at 2150 - I'd be driving it like I stole it from now on

    Feb 25, 2005 5:02:35 PM

    jnx
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    Reply to: Dilinger

    Re: Break In Period

    I don't think you need to go to all that trouble. The most important thing is to vary the engine speed, and keep it under 4200 rpm.

    Feb 25, 2005 5:42:24 PM

    69bossnine
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    Reply to: jnx

    Re: Break In Period

    Realize that they put in the break-in period just for "insurance", in an effort to hopefully stem the tide a bit so that everybody doesn't go out and hammer the cars right off the dealer's lot, and to hopefully reduce future warranty expenses by some tenth of some percent. It's more a bean-counters exercise, than a mechanical necessity. The guys who actually ASSEMBLE the engines at Porsche would probably tell you to vary RPM for 500KM, and then just LET IT RIP!!! These engines are very strong, very well built, and very precision built. It doesn't hurt to follow the break-in, but it's just a general guideline. You don't have to follow it religiously, and you won't hurt anything with one single "blip" to the redline, under absolutely zero load (out of gear). Just think about how many new Porsche owners just TOTALLY IGNORE the break-in suggestions, and wail on the cars from day one. Can you imagine how packed the service department would be with blown and hurt motors under warranty if the break-in period was absolutely critical??? Porsche would go bankrupt. They over-build, and then over-compensate on the break-in, in an effort to cover all their bets. All car manufacturers do the same, and most American manufacturers don't even BOTHER with suggesting a break-in procedure, as it's a hopeless effort for Ma and Pa Kettle and their Minivan. Most new car owners drive them like they stole them, and nothing bad ever comes of it. It's abuse over THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of miles that finally will add up to failure, not what you did in the 1st couple thousand.

    Feb 25, 2005 5:42:30 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: jnx

    Re: Break In Period

    Quote:
    jnx said:
    I don't think you need to go to all that trouble. The most important thing is to vary the engine speed, and keep it under 4200 rpm.



    I agree. Just keep shifting gears to vary engine speed. Even when you don't have to ( crusing on highway) shift gears anyway.

    Also I glombed onto this one. Do alot of stone cold to operating temp cycles. The casting of the crancase is seasoning itself and parts are breaking in accordingly.

    I learned this on the internet: Seasoning means, the aluminum crankcase and cylinders and heads expanding and contracting differently and establishing a permanent memory; this is a characteristic of newly cast metals. Hey, lots of cold to hot cycles: it can't hurt!

    Feb 26, 2005 8:04:24 AM

    ArthurY
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Break In Period







    Also I glombed onto this one. Do alot of stone cold to operating temp cycles. The casting of the crancase is seasoning itself and parts are breaking in accordingly.

    I learned this on the internet: Seasoning means, the aluminum crankcase and cylinders and heads expanding and contracting differently and establishing a permanent memory; this is a characteristic of newly cast metals. Hey, lots of cold to hot cycles: it can't hurt!



    And your Ph.D in metallurgy is from which University?

    Feb 27, 2005 4:34:02 AM

    tooner
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    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Break In Period

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    It's abuse over THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of miles that finally will add up to failure, not what you did in the 1st couple thousand.



    Very well said...

    My belief is that I'd rather enjoy the car as much as I can while under warranty then ease up when I am not covered anymore.

    Feb 27, 2005 12:23:01 PM

    Dilinger
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Break In Period

    well MMD i must say i agree with you but i contrast to one thing.

    About the operating cycles from coldto operating conditions

    The owners manual states clearly that during the break in period its NOT the best to use your Porsche for small distances i.e (from cold to operating temperatures),and if possible you should avoid small distances.

    Feb 27, 2005 12:29:21 PM

    jjr1
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    Reply to: Dilinger

    Re: Break In Period

    I have never heard of anyone saying run an engine in by doing lots of cold to hot operating temps. In fact like Dilinger I have heard the exact opposite and that this is likely to result in damaging the engine.

    Feb 27, 2005 4:22:05 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: jjr1

    Re: Break In Period

    No, no gents. We're talking 20-50-100 mile trips and then a shut down until cold.

    The 300-500-1000 mile stuff is wasting precious breakin time without enough cold-hot-cold cycles.

    Do the research into metalurgy yourself; it appears to be a fact that the crankcase gets stronger and a better-defined expansion-contraction memory because of repeated cold-hot-cold cycles; they call it "seasoning" of the casting.

    Oh, don't forget that following the owners manual exactly doesn't make you a genius and know-it-all. They totally _simplify_ the breakin reccomendations to get the most people to understand and follow AND fewest messed up engines under warrenty repair obligations.

    They don't care of the engine never develops full HP, they don't care if it starts to fall apart after the warrenty period.

    Feb 27, 2005 8:56:11 PM

    jfraser
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Break In Period

    MMD,
    I think you have misunderstood what you've read. Whilst I can't offer any info regarding break in periods, I can probably explain some of the metallurigical info you've seen.

    During the casting of certain alloys a process known as 'hipping' is utilized...Hot Isostatic Pressing uses heat and pressure to literally squeeze the materials' grain structure together, reduces porosity and enhances creep rupture properties. (is this what you meant by seasoning)
    Alternatively, it is possible to apply Specific heat to metals to induce 'work hardening'....The problem with this is it's hard to control the application of heat which as a result can cause differential rates of expansion & 'embrittlement' (suseptability to cracking).

    Once an alloy has been cast and is in 'operation' Thermal cycling has a profound affect on a components longevity because it can introduce 'creep'. Creep in essence causes the material to have 'memory loss' & leads to the eventual failure of the material.
    Sorry, this is getting to a point.....It's possible to predict the life of a component using a formula of firing temperature, hours of operation AND number of thermal cycles. Basically, there is no way that an increased number of thermal cycles is benefitial to an engine. By its very nature thermal cycling is a fatiguing process

    Feb 27, 2005 10:53:35 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: jfraser

    Re: Break In Period

    Quote:
    jfraser said:
    Basically, there is no way that an increased number of thermal cycles is benefitial to an engine. By its very nature thermal cycling is a fatiguing process



    Check again, with all due respect.

    I read from "reputable" sources that BMW will happily and routinely use reasonably young crankcases from blown engines in their remanufacturing of engines. Because of the "seasoning" they are deemed stronger and apparently more failsafe than newly cast blocks. It is said that they will use these used castings in rebuilding M series engines, whose crank cases need to be strongest.

    Go figure.

    At any rate, it makes sense to me, all things being equal, that an engine is better broken in by dozens of 50-100 mile trips, than just three 1000 mile trips.

    Feb 27, 2005 10:57:37 PM

    Dubliner
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Break In Period

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    I read from "reputable" sources that BMW will happily and routinely use reasonably young crankcases from blown engines in their remanufacturing of engines. Because of the "seasoning" they are deemed stronger and apparently more failsafe than newly cast blocks. It is said that they will use these used castings in rebuilding M series engines, whose crank cases need to be strongest.




    Well, I don't know about the rest of the argument but certainly it is true that BMW used seasoned engine blocks for their early generation turbo Formula 1 engines...

    Feb 28, 2005 12:17:54 AM

    jfraser
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    Reply to: Dubliner

    Re: Break In Period

    There may be any number of reasons why BMW does this, the fact still remains that thermal cycling is a fatiguing process.
    Please read the intro of this article.
    http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-14392004000100026

    The adoption of coatings to reduce the effects of material degradation due to thermal cycling/higher operating temperatures in gas turbines for example is commonplace. The thermal barrier coatings (tbc's) used on gas turbines are now so advanced that on GE's latest 9H GT the inlet firing temperature is actually higher than the melting point of the 1st stage blades.

    Feb 28, 2005 3:32:26 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: jfraser

    Re: Break In Period

    Quote:
    jfraser said:
    There may be any number of reasons why BMW does this, the fact still remains that thermal cycling is a fatiguing process.
    Please read the intro of this article.
    http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-14392004000100026




    Read and understood, very interesting, however it's getting too technical for me. Thanks though.

    An old professor in school once told me, "Nothing is obvious."

    The breakin period has alot going on and new castings behave differently from seasoned castings. Since the crankcase of your engine is eventually going to be seasoned anyway, and this seasoning is accomplished by repeated c-h-cold cycling, it makes sense that much of seasoning should take place during the breakin window. Especially since there are numerous other parts that are also breaking-in during this inverval. Therefore several 100 mile trips would be better than two or three thousand mile trips

    Interesting stuff. The nice thing is there's someone at Porsche or BMW who REALLY knows what's going on in this regard and has THE answer.

    Feb 28, 2005 3:47:33 PM

    69bossnine
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    Reply to: jfraser

    Re: Break In Period

    I'm not properly qualified to get into a technical debate on this, but from my affiliation with several professional race-engine builders I do know for a fact that they prefer old "seasoned" blocks for building professional drag racing motors. I believe that the "creep" referred to by jfraser is absolutely valid and factual, BUT.... that creep is rather irrelevent compared to the negatives attributed to building with a new unseasoned block. In short, the positives outweigh the negatives. In most cases, a block will wear out to the point of uselessness in the bores before it fails due to fatigue. Most blocks that fail under fatigue, that I see, either:

    1. Were so old and used that the bores were "sleeved" in order to keep the block in service, hence the fatigue factor had enough time and use to become the weak link, or...

    2. The block had a casting defect that over however much time, became critical. Or...

    3. The engine had been overheated, which will alter and accellerate the process..

    As with most processes in forging or casting metals into parts, you're always faced with structural defects due to environmental contamination, material temperature and controls, and hundreds of other critical factors. It's not a perfect science, otherwise race cars would never break!! But, as a GENERAL RULE, race engine builders love to see an engine block that is still stock-bore, but has 20-30K miles under its belt. They don't generally talk very scientifically, they simply say that "it's seasoned", and that it's "stable" and won't move around and alter exacting tolerances after several heat soaks. Of course, they still break blocks, but that has more to do with the rpm and horsepower demands they put on the blocks, be it old or new.

    I think that everybody is correct here, it's a matter of getting all the great info into proper context.

    Mar 1, 2005 9:07:44 AM

    Dilinger
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    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Break In Period

    69 is not so difficult to inerprete the manual... it basically and only sais: "avoid short distances where the engine is shut down before it warmed up well"

    i guess this does not leave much to debate...

    Mar 1, 2005 4:08:43 PM

    AJK
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    Reply to: Dilinger

    Re: Break In Period

    I believe a key point concerning "seasoned" blocks is that after the "seasoning" the block is re-machined! For precision structures final machining is always done after the last heat treating.

    Mar 1, 2005 4:12:17 PM

    69bossnine
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    Reply to: AJK

    Re: Break In Period

    I figured that went without saying....

    Mar 1, 2005 6:09:46 PM

    Dilinger
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Break In Period

    i definetely think that above all is the manual. its script ,and its official

    Mar 1, 2005 7:48:22 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: Dilinger

    Re: Break In Period

    Quote:
    Dilinger said:
    i definetely think that above all is the manual. its script ,and its official



    Please understand that the manual is written for the ordinary person who buys the car (any car for that matter).

    Follow the manual and make Porsche happy. Not necessarily the IDEAL way to break in the car though (simplified, conservative, serves Porsche's interests).

    Tough to accept but true.

    Mar 1, 2005 8:13:43 PM

    69bossnine
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Break In Period

    Quote:
    Please understand that the manual is written for the ordinary person who buys the car (any car for that matter).

    Follow the manual and make Porsche happy. Not necessarily the IDEAL way to break in the car though (simplified, conservative, serves Porsche's interests).

    Tough to accept but true.



    Precisely.

    Just because the shampoo bottle tells you to "repeat", doesn't mean you didn't get your hair clean the first time around....

    Mar 3, 2005 10:40:50 AM

    Dilinger
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    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Break In Period

    BUT THAT GET YOU FOR SURE A QUITE SLEEP, AND WHEN WARRANTY CLAIM TIME COMES...THEN YOU ARE COVERED PLUS I DONT BELIEVE YOU GAIn ANYTHING FROM DEVIATING FROM THE MANUAL IN THIS MATTER.
    And especially i m not into this cold-warm thing its just not good from the engine, and its not difficult to perceive it.

    Mar 3, 2005 1:44:19 PM

    69bossnine
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    Reply to: Dilinger

    Re: Break In Period

    Dilinger,

    You must worry about alot of things....BTW, the warranty is NOT voided if you don't follow the break-in routine. That alone should tell you something. The only point we're making here is that there's not much point in spending the first several months of ownership "Driving Miss Daisy". The break-in advice is mostly scare-tactic, and it appears they've scared you stiff.

    Mar 3, 2005 1:51:14 PM

    Dubliner
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    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Break In Period

    It's very simple. We can all make our points once. Some folks don't agree with the stated procedure in the manual. Others, including Dilinger, seem to want to follow it very closely.
    I doubt anyone will change anyone else's strongly held belief. So why are we wasting electrons ?
     
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