Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Six-point harness - Page1

Feb 1, 2005 10:54:02 AM

mobile: Co-Pilot; Loc: D , Germany; Posts: 289, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 21, 2002

Six-point harness

To increase safety a little bit more I'm planning to put in the original six-point harness and the roll-over bar in my Carrera 4S. (I already have the original GT3 seats in it).

Only to build in the six point harness my Porsche dealer wants to have 300 EUR! I'm just asking myself if this is really so much effort? I already build in the original GT3-seats in it. Not to complicated. Of course I will need a special "TÜV" certification, so it's not the same as changing a audio system.

Regards
Mobile

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Feb 1, 2005 11:05:49 AM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: mobile

Re: Six-point harness

Doesn't sound that unreasonable from an official dealer given current labour rates.

If you are talking about TÜV then are you thinking about using it on the street instead of the 3-point belt? Are you sure you really want to do this?

Yes, it can be safer, but only if used correctly. The 3-point belt has a natural tightening mechanism using your body movement to tighten the lower lap belt. This doesn't happen on the 3-point belt. Instead it is essential that the various belts are kept super-tight so that they can oppose each other in a crash. What this means is that the belts have to be really tightened down hard every time you put them on. By hard I mean so that you cannot even wiggle a shoulder blade. This is really important for the sub-belt. That must be absolutely tight to stop the lap belt from pulling up. If you wear it this way then it can be safer. But are you willing to go through this hassle every single time? If you don't tighten those sub-belts then you will get internal injuries from the lap belts and that sort of defeats the purpose.

I assume you already have a racing seat?

Stephen

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Feb 1, 2005 11:19:05 AM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: mobile

Re: Six-point harness

hi mobile

long time no read! very nice having you back at rennteam!

Quote:

To increase safety a little bit more I'm planning to put in the original six-point harness and the roll-over bar in my Carrera 4S. (I already have the original GT3 seats in it).

Only to build in the six point harness my Porsche dealer wants to have 300 EUR! I'm just asking myself if this is really so much effort? I already build in the original GT3-seats in it. Not to complicated. Of course I will need a special "TÜV" certification, so it's not the same as changing a audio system.

the 6 point harness is not legal for street use, so the "TÜV" wouldn't be too enthusiastic about your plans anyway

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Feb 1, 2005 12:06:28 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: Six-point harness

Quote:
FixedWing said:
Doesn't sound that unreasonable from an official dealer given current labour rates.

If you are talking about TÜV then are you thinking about using it on the street instead of the 3-point belt? Are you sure you really want to do this?

Yes, it can be safer, but only if used correctly. The 3-point belt has a natural tightening mechanism using your body movement to tighten the lower lap belt. This doesn't happen on the 3-point belt. Instead it is essential that the various belts are kept super-tight so that they can oppose each other in a crash. What this means is that the belts have to be really tightened down hard every time you put them on. By hard I mean so that you cannot even wiggle a shoulder blade. This is really important for the sub-belt. That must be absolutely tight to stop the lap belt from pulling up. If you wear it this way then it can be safer. But are you willing to go through this hassle every single time? If you don't tighten those sub-belts then you will get internal injuries from the lap belts and that sort of defeats the purpose.

I assume you already have a racing seat?

Stephen

He says he's got the one-piece GT3 buckets, but I'm wondering if they have enough "flare" on the head area to protect the head from hitting the roll over bar in case of an accident since you don't wear helmets in the streets I suppose. Probably with the 6-point harness well tight as you say its OK since the body won't move around as much in a collision, but I wonder how safe it is to use the typical cage with the three point standard belts that allow for much more body motion

(I'm not even wondering about a cage with standard seats)... anybody have any experience?

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Feb 1, 2005 12:52:53 PM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Six-point harness

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
He says he's got the one-piece GT3 buckets, but I'm wondering if they have enough "flare" on the head area to protect the head from hitting the roll over bar in case of an accident since you don't wear helmets in the streets I suppose. Probably with the 6-point harness well tight as you say its OK since the body won't move around as much in a collision, but I wonder how safe it is to use the typical cage with the three point standard belts that allow for much more body motion (I'm not even wondering about a cage with standard seats)... anybody have any experience?

Carlos, you've hit on a big problem with the front cage. These should only ever be used with helmets. Yet that doesn't fit with the "look" many people are after and so they drive on the street with the front cage installed and no helmets. This is one reason the front cage is not TÜV approved.

One way to reduce the damage it to use padding material on the tubing anywhere that the head could hit. But even here, most people do not use the correct type of padding. They use a soft foam when it needs to be a very hard foam.

I recently read that the standard for ordinary street belts is 40% stretch in material. The average tested stretch was something like 20-30%. So you can see that the body moves a lot! Full 6-point belts are much better but even they stretch. Which is why it is important to keep the belts as short as possible.

I think if it was me with this sort of track car (full cage, race seat), I would use 6-point belts on the street. It would be safer than a 3-point belt. But I would also take the effort to make sure that I and my passengers had the belts on really tight every time.

Stephen

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Feb 1, 2005 2:06:27 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3995, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Six-point harness

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
He says he's got the one-piece GT3 buckets, but I'm wondering if they have enough "flare" on the head area to protect the head from hitting the roll over bar in case of an accident since you don't wear helmets in the streets I suppose. ... anybody have any experience?

Yeah, I hit my head on the roll bar in a street accident with no helmet some years ago.

Fortunately, all that happened was a split in my scalp where it whacked into the bar. I bled so much that my wife threw my dress shirt and necktie in the trash after picking me up from the Emergency Room.

Three stitches and I was fine

Don't try this at home!

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Feb 1, 2005 3:01:07 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Six-point harness

Quote:
W8MM said:
Yeah, I hit my head on the roll bar in a street accident with no helmet some years ago.

Fortunately, all that happened was a split in my scalp where it whacked into the bar. I bled so much that my wife threw my dress shirt and necktie in the trash after picking me up from the Emergency Room.

Three stitches and I was fine

Don't try this at home!

Ouch! glad there was no other injuries Mike...three stitches?... but how many stitches did the roll bar need afterwards?

As to the foam padding, even if they have foam padding it would still be dangerous becuase the brain tissue and intracraneal vasculature could suffer just as well from the impact due to the displacement of the cerebrum within the cranium produced by the sudden deceleration of impact (protective foam or not) and these are the dangerous life threatening injuries such as an acute subdural hematoma which is often fatal (sometimes symptoms only appear hours after the accident when you think you are fine and collapse).
Best is no to have anything near the head to hit at all unless you have a helmet that can abosord significant impact and decrease head movement (specially with a HANS) so I would be hesitant to use a roll cage in a street car

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Feb 1, 2005 7:47:01 PM

mobile: Co-Pilot; Loc: D , Germany; Posts: 289, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 21, 2002; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: Six-point harness

Hi guys!

Thanks for your information. (Even I still don't know if I can build in the harness on my own ...

)

I'm an active member of the German "Pistenclub". This club is offering track days for its members on different tracks all over Germany.

This is now my fourth year of track driving. As you can imagine each year you are getting a little bit faster. I'm still trying not to overdo. But now one can exclude mistakes.(Or someone is crashing in front of you, or behind your car - sometimes that doesn't matter - or there is oil on the street ... or ...)

Normally I would drive a GT3. But this is a different story.

So yes, I knew it's not comfortable. And I guess it will take some time to become accustomed to it. (It takes me some time with the helmet). But I'm also wearing a fire-proof overall - which isn't really suitable either

)

Mabye it sounds a littler bit exaggerated - I'm only 15-20 times on the track per year. (Including the Nordschleife). But I made my decision.

But you guys are right - I don't need TÜV for the six-point harness. I even will not get one. I forgot. It's only for the role-cage.

There is a picture attached showing a Porsche Tequipment role-cage with GT3-seats. I guess it's not so much likely that your head touches the role-cage in case of a crash. But who knows...

Mobile

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Feb 1, 2005 8:02:16 PM

mobile: Co-Pilot; Loc: D , Germany; Posts: 289, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 21, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: Six-point harness

Quote:
zzboba said:
hi mobile

long time no read! very nice having you back at rennteam!

Thanks!

Not one of my best years. I had an engine trouble which Porsche couldn't fix. It takes over 3 months for Porsche to get to the decision to change the engine.

After that I had to "lend out" my driver license for another month.

But everything is going well now and I guess 2005 is getting one of the good years

mobile

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Feb 1, 2005 8:08:52 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: mobile

Re: Six-point harness

Mobile,
I think we are talking about two different types of roll cage here.
The one on the picture is just a rear roll cage and would be fine in terms of safety.
The one Carlos and Fixedwing were mentionning is I think a full roll cage that comes all the way to the A pillar and is indeed close to your head.

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Feb 1, 2005 11:58:24 PM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: Six-point harness

Quote:
Fanch said:
Mobile,
I think we are talking about two different types of roll cage here.
The one on the picture is just a rear roll cage and would be fine in terms of safety.
The one Carlos and Fixedwing were mentionning is I think a full roll cage that comes all the way to the A pillar and is indeed close to your head.

Right. We were both assuming use on the street without proper safety wear. On the track, with helmet, all of this equipment is beneficial.

Stephen

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Feb 2, 2005 12:08:22 AM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Six-point harness

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
As to the foam padding, even if they have foam padding it would still be dangerous becuase the brain tissue and intracraneal vasculature could suffer just as well from the impact due to the displacement of the cerebrum within the cranium produced by the sudden deceleration of impact (protective foam or not) and these are the dangerous life threatening injuries such as an acute subdural hematoma which is often fatal (sometimes symptoms only appear hours after the accident when you think you are fine and collapse).
Best is no to have anything near the head to hit at all unless you have a helmet that can abosord significant impact and decrease head movement (specially with a HANS) so I would be hesitant to use a roll cage in a street car

You are right Carlos. I was really just thinking aloud. I think that the padding might help, but it isn't a substitute for a helmet.

Too bad it isn't acceptable to wear a helmet on the street.

Stephen

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Feb 2, 2005 12:47:23 AM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: Six-point harness

as a safety device, the 6point belt should be OK for street use, however, it may or may not be 'legal' to use as a seat belt on the street (ironic isnt it) in your respective country.

there are two versions of the porsche roll bar

one that is a full bar with cross braces for the 6point harness, the other is a roll HOOP that does not support a 6pt harness

here are some pics of my GT3

GT3 seats, 6 point harness, tequipment rollBAR (ALL porsche OEM parts).

http://gallery.rennlist.com/gallery/moogle

PS,. the rollbar isnt really 'forward' enough to hit your head if you were wearing only 3 point belts.

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Feb 2, 2005 1:25:33 AM

TopherV: Veteran; Loc: Orange County, Southern California; Posts: 1121, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 29, 2003; Reply to: Moogle

Re: Six-point harness

Moogle have you every contemplated on removing
the rear bumper bumpers???

Has anyone ever done it ? I know what it looks
like. Ive seen the european models, but i
was just wondering if anybody in the U.S.
has done so.

just curious

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May 7, 2006 9:57:13 PM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: TopherV

Re: Six-point harness

Quote:
TopherV said:
Moogle have you every contemplated on removing
the rear bumper bumpers???

Has anyone ever done it ? I know what it looks
like. Ive seen the european models, but i
was just wondering if anybody in the U.S.
has done so. just curious

sorry to dig through old posts, i was looking for some rollbar pictures and stumbled upon this.

anyway topher, to answer your question albiet 1 year late (sorry!

) there are supports that go into the little bumpers and they are required by US law for the car to pass a 5 mph collision without damage.

these supports are reiveted to the frame - making it difficult to remove.

ALSO, on some models the COVERS are integral to the bumper cover.

all this makes it a PITA to remove - i dont mind it.

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