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Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
The hesitation issue is even more of a pain in the a.. in winter time. Today in the morning, I had the chance to drive my Cayenne Turbo in deep snow. Due to the non-linear throttle response, it is very difficult to find the right throttle setting to be able to stay on the street or without watching the PSM light coming on all the time.
It is HORRIBLE and I really don't get it. Porsche, DO SOMETHING about it, I'm almost fed up.
It is HORRIBLE and I really don't get it. Porsche, DO SOMETHING about it, I'm almost fed up.
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
I've owned 6 new Porsches in the past 4 years, if Porsche doesn't fix this problem but provides it as a fix to a future version of the Cayenne I will not purchase another Porsche again.
I have no problems buying only Ferrari, Lamborghini and BMW from now on if this is how Porsche treats their loyal customers.
I have no problems buying only Ferrari, Lamborghini and BMW from now on if this is how Porsche treats their loyal customers.
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
Note that my relatively unhappy experience with the Cayenne (not in terms of drivability but in terms of issues like the hesitation problem) is a major reason that I'm not adding a 997S to the stable. I drove one not too long ago and fell in love with the car, but I'm waiting to see what Porsche does with the Cayenne first.
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
Quote:
RC said:
The hesitation issue is even more of a pain in the a.. in winter time. Today in the morning, I had the chance to drive my Cayenne Turbo in deep snow. Due to the non-linear throttle response, it is very difficult to find the right throttle setting to be able to stay on the street or without watching the PSM light coming on all the time.
It is HORRIBLE and I really don't get it. Porsche, DO SOMETHING about it, I'm almost fed up.
Hey RC, I posted this thread over at Rennlist and someone said the manual states you should have the PSM off in the snow?
Dec 21, 2004 12:28:12 AM
- HighDesert
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- Loc: USA
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- Registered on: Apr 8, 2004
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Reply to:
RC
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
Quote:
RC said:
Due to the non-linear throttle response, it is very difficult to find the right throttle setting to be able to stay on the street or without watching the PSM light coming on all the time.
The whole pedal application/depression rate factoring into the equation is very interesting. I think I can say that I'm to the point where the non-linear thing wouldn't bother me that much if it would kick down a gear consistently after a reasonable application of the accelerator pedal.
I honestly don't think I have any more of a problem in the winter be it snow or ice. Maybe you need to meet me here: http://www.winterdrive.com so I can teach you how to drive on ice <G>. I've rented the track for the past couple of years and my wife and I have a blast.
Of course there's always the group too: http://www.ourgangiceracing.com. Some of them didn't seem to like it too much when I showed up with the ML55 and Dunlop M2s. They teched me into the Street Stock Bare Rubber class and then challenged my tires right before the class began. I can't imagine they'd welcome the CT. The funny thing is that guy that challenged me did it didn't even know how ESP/PSM/etc. worked. I told him he needed to be more concerned about that and might want to not worry about winning and open his mind a bit.
How are those 19" winter tires working out for you?
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
Quote:
RC said:
The hesitation issue is even more of a pain in the a.. in winter time. Today in the morning, I had the chance to drive my Cayenne Turbo in deep snow. Due to the non-linear throttle response, it is very difficult to find the right throttle setting to be able to stay on the street or without watching the PSM light coming on all the time.
It is HORRIBLE and I really don't get it. Porsche, DO SOMETHING about it, I'm almost fed up.
Turn off psm in deep snow and all your traction problems will disappear. You will then make use of throttle steering...psm is for slick/icy roads when your taking it easy...with deep snow, when the power goes off on the slipping wheel, it makes it very difficult to maintain your direction...If I need to go up a rather steep grade and there's a considerable amount of snow, off goes psm and the climb is pleasurable and reassuring for a reasonable driver (minimal skills required along with dedicated snows...NOT M&S all seasons... )
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesita
RC, did your dealer perform "throttle adaptation" procedure on your Cay?..Seems like it's ONE important procedure to do to the car for addressing hesitation independent of all related recalls, Control Units swaps and software updates...it reinitializes and remaps throttle to your particular Cay...
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
ben, whoever said that should have his head examined.
Of course you need to turn PSM off if you want to drive through deep snow and the PSM jumps in all the time but you can't do that on a public street when other cars are around and the PSM only jumps in because of the throttle hesitation and the non-linear throttle response.
The snow wasn't THAT deep, I was able to drive my 997 Carrera S without a problem (no PSM jumping in and no throttle hesitation) and when I switched to our "old" ML55 AMG, I was in heaven. The problem is that when you drive in snow, you have to apply a little bit more throttle than usual to overcome the "resistance" of the snow. And everybody who owns a Cayenne knows very well what happens if you press the throttle too much resulting in a "jump" when the turbo boost jumps in. And THIS is the moment when the PSM kicks in, no wonder because of the high torque.
I wish I could describe it a little bit better in English but I guess you guys get my point.
People have to understand: the throttle hesitation doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the PSM kicking in. It is a problem which has been confirmed to me by Porsche to be the "standard" setup of the Cayenne because, and I quote somebody from Porsche, "customers want it this way".
I really suggest to ANYBODY who has doubts about a throttle hesitation to testdrive a ML55 AMG or a BMW X5 4.4/4.6is.
The surprise of their lifetime awaits them.
Of course you need to turn PSM off if you want to drive through deep snow and the PSM jumps in all the time but you can't do that on a public street when other cars are around and the PSM only jumps in because of the throttle hesitation and the non-linear throttle response.
The snow wasn't THAT deep, I was able to drive my 997 Carrera S without a problem (no PSM jumping in and no throttle hesitation) and when I switched to our "old" ML55 AMG, I was in heaven. The problem is that when you drive in snow, you have to apply a little bit more throttle than usual to overcome the "resistance" of the snow. And everybody who owns a Cayenne knows very well what happens if you press the throttle too much resulting in a "jump" when the turbo boost jumps in. And THIS is the moment when the PSM kicks in, no wonder because of the high torque.
I wish I could describe it a little bit better in English but I guess you guys get my point.
People have to understand: the throttle hesitation doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the PSM kicking in. It is a problem which has been confirmed to me by Porsche to be the "standard" setup of the Cayenne because, and I quote somebody from Porsche, "customers want it this way".
I really suggest to ANYBODY who has doubts about a throttle hesitation to testdrive a ML55 AMG or a BMW X5 4.4/4.6is.
The surprise of their lifetime awaits them.
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
Quote:
I really suggest to ANYBODY who has doubts about a throttle hesitation to testdrive a ML55 AMG or a BMW X5 4.4/4.6is.
The surprise of your lifetime awaits them.
Any ML or X5 will do for a comparison that shows what a linear throttle response should be.
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
I belive all the winter tires approved by Porsche is usless in snow and ice conditions especially the ones you choose, RC. They are not optimized for snow conditions, but were designed to be able to go +150 mph on the autobahn. My choise was the Nokian Hakka SUV tire. It is only approved for 120 mph / 190 kmph but is superior to the tires approved by porsche in REAL winter conditions.
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
Quote:This assertion is based upon what Cayenne testing? Please post your results. Porsche documents their test results, each year, for all models, in the October / November issue of Christophorus.
426h said:
I belive all the winter tires approved by Porsche is usless in snow and ice conditions especially the ones you choose, RC. They are not optimized for snow conditions, but were designed to be able to go +150 mph on the autobahn. My choise was the Nokian Hakka SUV tire. It is only approved for 120 mph / 190 kmph but is superior to the tires approved by porsche in REAL winter conditions.
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
Quote:
This assertion is based upon what Cayenne testing? Please post your results. Porsche documents their test results, each year, for all models, in the October / November issue of Christophorus.
I'm curious about that myself...
And maybe somebody could also explain what tire choices have to do with throttle/shifting hesitation, I'm honestly willing to learn.
Regarding the winter tires Porsche recommends: the main problem on the Cayenne is WEIGHT. Therefore, the Cayenne has problems mainly with braking in winter time and with side grip. The winter tires approved by Porsche were DEVELOPPED with that specific criterias in mind. They are easy to drive in winter time and they provide a pretty good feedback about the road conditions, something very important on the Cayenne. I would NEVER choose a non-approved winter tire (not even summer tire) for the Cayenne due to it's weight, PASM system and the massive torque build-up on the Turbo.
I'm very "anal" about tire choices on my cars because I learned in the past that tires MAKE a difference in drive feel, stability and braking performance.
And to try to end this discussion: my 997 Carrera S with winter tires feels more safe on a snowy street than my Cayenne Turbo. This is somehow strange, maybe it has to do with the new winter tire generation from Conti (TS810S N0) which I'm driving right now on the 997. But as soon as it is dry, the Conti winter tires don't convince me. The razor sharp steering/reaction feel (as with the Michelin Pilot Sport 2 summer tires) is completely gone and there is a somehow "numb" drive feel I really don't like. It think this is part of the "safety grid" of the Conti winter tires because the extreme side grip of the Michelin is missing in the dry. Maybe Porsche has chosen a more safe setup from grip to beginning of sliding. This is great for winter driving when it is slippery but not so great in the dry. I'll get used to it but the difference winter tire/summer tire shows me once again how important it is to choose the right tire. The right TESTED tire. The 911 is actually THE car which immediately unveils a good or bad tire setup. Due to it's tiny front tires and massive rear tires and of course due to the special weight distribution.
The same happens with the Cayenne, maybe not THAT dramatic but still...
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
Quote:
RC said:
[And maybe somebody could also explain what tire choices have to do with throttle/shifting hesitation, I'm honestly willing to learn.
Sorry about that confusion, there was a link to this thread from another thread where winter driving and tires were discussed and had my mind set on tires
My point is that winter tires is a compromise. I admit that when there is traction, the tries approved by Porsche is the best there is. However where I live, we have snow and ice on ther roads for 4 months, there is nothing better than a "real" winter tire with studs.
On ice you will in fact have zero feedback form the P-approved tires, since they slide to much.
It all depends on where you live and in what weater conditions you face.
Btw, for summer driving i would never choose a non approved tire either!
Happy Holidays!
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
Quote:
wingless said:This is based upon what Cayenne testing or experience?
Based on tests in scandinavian mags. As I am sure you know, tires with studs are not allowed everywhere. However on ice it is the only way to get any kind of reasonable traction. You may also want to read this:
http://www.pfmmag.com/JulyAugust2004/Julyauguststuddedtires.htm
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
Quote:
426h said:
I belive all the winter tires approved by Porsche is usless in snow and ice conditions especially the ones you choose, RC. They are not optimized for snow conditions, but were designed to be able to go +150 mph on the autobahn. My choise was the Nokian Hakka SUV tire. It is only approved for 120 mph / 190 kmph but is superior to the tires approved by porsche in REAL winter conditions.
Quote:
426h said:
On ice you will in fact have zero feedback form the P-approved tires, since they slide to much.
Quote:
wingless said:
This is based upon what Cayenne testing or experience?
Quote:
426h said:
Based on tests in scandinavian mags. As I am sure you know, tires with studs are not allowed everywhere. However on ice it is the only way to get any kind of reasonable traction. You may also want to read this:
http://www.pfmmag.com/JulyAugust2004/Julyauguststuddedtires.htm
The linked article does NOT support the contention that the tires Porsche has evaluated, tested and documented, for usage on the Cayenne are useless and fail to provide feedback in ice and snow conditions. In fact, the article that 426h attached, on studded tires, explicitly states that using winter-only tires provides the greatest safety and performance in winter conditions.
The article also states that studs provide greater bite and grip on ice, which is obvious. But that is not what 426h continues to contend.
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
Quote:
wingless said:
The article also states that studs provide greater bite and grip on ice, which is obvious. But that is not what 426h continues to contend.
That was in fact was I was trying to say.
I did not know that Porsche approved the use of studs or that any of the tires that are approved by Porsche came with studs, but since you seem to have better knowledge, please share this information.
Re: what happened to multiple page thread on throttle hesitation
Quote:
426h said:
I did not know that Porsche approved the use of studs or that any of the tires that are approved by Porsche came with studs, but since you seem to have better knowledge, please share this information.
Quote:
wingless said:
Driving with the Porsche recommended Dunlop GrandTrek WT tires has not revealed any problems in winter or snow driving.
The Dunlop GrandTrek WT tires do not have provisions for studs. My experience using these for 11/2 years of winter usage has revealed that the Cayenne has outstanding snow and ice performance and acceptable performance on dry roads.
It is reasonable to conclude that your local Porsche dealership also has first-hand knowledge on these tires. Why not discuss this with them?
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