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    Oct 10, 2004 12:14:53 AM

    mrcohanian
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    mrcohanian
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    997S Steering Has Moved Backwards...

    Turned in 03 996 Coupe and picked up 997S last week. I have about 700 miles on the car now. First I would like to say that the car looks good in the flesh exterior wise and the interior is a definite upgrade over the old car. The car feels more planted and the PASM works well with the 19 inch wheels to give a nice ride. However, Nobody posted on this board about the Road Feel that has changed on the new car. Autocars review of the Steering was right on the money..... The Steering is still ok but the car has lost that great porsche like feel that I have gotten so use to.. After driving this car today, I got into my 03 Boxster S, and it was night and day difference in Road Feel........ Does the new 997S handle better than the old 996 or Boxster? Probably YES... The nwe 997S feels more planted and stable than the old car it replaces. BUT THE CAR HAS LOST THAT SPECIAL ROAD FEEL THAT I HAVE COME TO LOVE IN A PORSCHE. I guess I am going to have to get use to it..........

    Oct 10, 2004 12:32:25 AM

    Wild-Speed
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    Wild-Speed
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    Reply to: mrcohanian

    Re: 997S STEERING HAS MOVED BACKWARDS.............

    ..... or get another 996

    Oct 10, 2004 2:07:52 AM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: mrcohanian

    Re: 997S STEERING HAS MOVED BACKWARDS.............

    Yes, I agree with you on that.

    I wouldn't say that the 997's steering is overall less nimble - the huge difference is the feel at mid-position where the 996 was more responsive and communicative. I honestly don't understand why this great feature was dismissed on the current model. Once you get into a turn and experience the different ratio-steering you better be in paradise...

    I do believe that the Boxster has a more nimble steering feel and response over the Carrera due to its more neutral weight distribution anyway.

    Oct 10, 2004 2:48:38 AM

    atlas310
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    atlas310
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    Reply to: mrcohanian

    Re: 997S STEERING HAS MOVED BACKWARDS.............

    Do you enjoy the 997S more than the 996? If you didn't have either, which would you choose?

    Oct 10, 2004 6:53:10 PM

    Moogle
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    Reply to: atlas310

    Re: 997S STEERING HAS MOVED BACKWARDS.............

    "steering has moved backwards"

    that was the general idea with the entire car

    Oct 10, 2004 7:20:51 PM

    fritz
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    fritz
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: 997S STEERING HAS MOVED BACKWARDS.............

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    I wouldn't say that the 997's steering is overall less nimble - the huge difference is the feel at mid-position where the 996 was more responsive and communicative. I honestly don't understand why this great feature was dismissed on the current model.



    I've read similar comments a couple of times, and they surprise me. I didn't notice a real difference in center-point feel between a 997 S I drove and my 996 daily driver. Also the steering ratio at center-point is close to being the same on 996 and 997.

    Could it be that some cars are leaving the factory with toe-settings which are less than optimal? A discrepancy of just a few minutes of angle can make a big difference to straight-line stability and center-point feel in a car with a sporty suspension setup.

    Oct 10, 2004 8:51:31 PM

    Grant
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    Grant
    Loc: Denver, CO , United States
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    Reply to: mrcohanian

    Re: 997S STEERING HAS MOVED BACKWARDS.............

    That's what I was afraid of after reading the first words about the variable ratio rack It's a real shame. The steering feel has continually been diluted for years (the manual rack from before 1989 is miles better than the power steering version also). My 73 has so much more feedback information than my 993...

    Oct 10, 2004 9:48:16 PM

    mrcohanian
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    mrcohanian
    Loc: NJ
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: 997S STEERING HAS MOVED BACKWARDS.............

    Today, I took the 997S out and really pushed her on some country side backroads. The car handled really nice , taction control never intervened. If pushed hard, you can get the front end to slide , steering response is quick and percise.The brakes (Ihave the steel brakes) showed no sign of fade.The cars acceleration seems to also be improving as the car breaks in. The 997S is defintely better than the car it replaces and can't see myself going back. Porsche has moved the 911 to the next level. I still haven't changed my opinion that some LIFE has been taken out of the steering, subjectively at least. Thats my only disappointment with the car. that and the window swiches......

    Oct 10, 2004 11:08:05 PM

    atlas310
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    atlas310
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    Reply to: Moogle

    Re: 997S STEERING HAS MOVED BACKWARDS.............

    Right, I got that. But I was wondering is that enough to negate all the other improvements? In other words, after driving both, if he didn't have either, would he have chosen to purchase the 997S or the 996?

    Oct 10, 2004 11:19:20 PM

    mrcohanian
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    mrcohanian
    Loc: NJ
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    Reply to: atlas310

    Re: 997S STEERING HAS MOVED BACKWARDS.............

    Vote goes to 997S

    Oct 10, 2004 11:40:59 PM

    RCA
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    RC
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    Reply to: mrcohanian

    Re: 997S Steering Has Moved Backwards...

    At first, I didn't like the steering. It felt less direct and too sensitive at higher speeds, especially in curves.
    I just think that the new "variable" steering is completely different than standard steering systems and you have to get used to it. To be honest: after 4400 km in my 997 Carrera S, I don't even think about the steering anymore. But for the first 2000 km or so, it bothered me. Especially since I almost had several accidents in high speed curves because turning the steering wheel only a little bit made the car change direction much more than I was used with other cars, including my former 996 Turbo.
    And the interesting part is: the steering is pretty direct but the fact that it changes steering feel and the fact that it turns pretty easy around the middle point, provides a different, less connected, FEEL. But as soon as you get used to it, everything changes. I just wish Porsche would have issued some sort of warning or "introduction" to this steering in their car manual.

    Are there a few things I don't like on my Carrera S? Yes:

    1. engine is good for at least 380 HP, I always have the feeling that the engine is somehow "castrated", funny.
    2. the 1st gear sometimes doesn't want to pop in when I'm standing at a stop light with the gears in neutral and the only way to get it to pop in is to release the clutch and apply it again or to use extensive force which can't be too healthy.
    3. the windows switches because they are too close one to each other and they should have had different sizes.
    4. the seat memory buttons (next to my knee )
    5. the ignition lock works too "light", the key can be turned accidentally when having a Cayenne key attached to the key chain too, shutting off the engine while driving (it happened once to me when I pushed the Cayenne key away from my knee, providing a pretty scary moment to me at 60 kph in a curve)
    6. fuel consumption higher than expected, around 17-18 litres/100 km now (driving as fast as possible whenever road conditions, speed limits, etc. permit)
    7. a strange short hauling noise is sometimes coming from the clutch when I release it slowly while accelerating from standstill in the first gear

    But you see: NO complaints about performance, drive feel, steering, etc., I just love this car.
    Regarding some of the above mentioned "issues" which might be new to some of you: I'll check on them next week when I might get the chance to discuss them.

    Oct 11, 2004 8:00:49 AM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: 997S STEERING HAS MOVED BACKWARDS.............

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    ...Could it be that some cars are leaving the factory with toe-settings which are less than optimal? A discrepancy of just a few minutes of angle can make a big difference to straight-line stability and center-point feel in a car with a sporty suspension setup.



    That would be an interesting thought - actually I would've expected an at least equal feel compared to the 996.

    Oct 11, 2004 8:03:42 AM

    Ferdie
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    Ferdie
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997S Steering Has Moved Backwards...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    ...
    2. the 1st gear sometimes doesn't want to pop in when I'm standing at a stop light with the gears in neutral and the only way to get it to pop in is to release the clutch and apply it again or to use extensive force which can't be too healthy.
    ...6. fuel consumption higher than expected, around 17-18 litres/100 km now (driving as fast as possible whenever road conditions, speed limits, etc. permit)
    7. a strange short hauling noise is sometimes coming from the clutch when I release it slowly while accelerating from standstill in the first gear
    ...



    Can you select 1st gear when you put it in 2nd first?
    Possible that point 2 and 7 are related to each other? It would make sense...

    Share your opinon on the gas consumption - especially compared to the 996!
    Actually, how much weight do the 19" wheels have? It could be that the low acc. figures (compared to the 996 LK) could be related to the increase in rotating masses also.

    Oct 11, 2004 9:29:57 AM

    zzbobaA
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    zzboba
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    Reply to: Moogle

    Re: 997S STEERING HAS MOVED BACKWARDS.............

    Quote:
    that was the general idea with the entire car



    Oct 11, 2004 9:37:49 AM

    zzbobaA
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    zzboba
    Loc: Germany
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997S Steering Has Moved Backwards...

    Quote:
    At first, I didn't like the steering. It felt less direct and too sensitive at higher speeds, especially in curves.
    I just think that the new "variable" steering is completely different than standard steering systems and you have to get used to it. To be honest: after 4400 km in my 997 Carrera S, I don't even think about the steering anymore. But for the first 2000 km or so, it bothered me. Especially since I almost had several accidents in high speed curves because turning the steering wheel only a little bit made the car change direction much more than I was used with other cars, including my former 996 Turbo.
    And the interesting part is: the steering is pretty direct but the fact that it changes steering feel and the fact that it turns pretty easy around the middle point, provides a different, less connected, FEEL. But as soon as you get used to it, everything changes. I just wish Porsche would have issued some sort of warning or "introduction" to this steering in their car manual.



    but isn't porsche driving about being linked to the street? to feel the surface?

    i remember some PAG developer making fun of ferrari's "skyhook" suspension system stating that porsche cars are "hooked to the ground". are they still?

    but i have to admit that i've not driven the 997 yet. but i heard this complain about the "remote steering feel" quite a lot.

    IMO they could leave assisted steering to BMW.

    Quote:
    engine is good for at least 380 HP, I always have the feeling that the engine is somehow "castrated", funny



    ...hopefully not good for at least 400 HP in the 997 GT3

    Oct 11, 2004 12:02:55 PM

    Lars997M
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    Lars997
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997S Steering Has Moved Backwards...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    1. engine is good for at least 380 HP, I always have the feeling that the engine is somehow "castrated", funny.
    6. fuel consumption higher than expected, around 17-18 litres/100 km now




    See... this are the major points why I'm still not sure if I would buy a 997!

    Point 1 - after tesdriving and sitting back in to my 996, I thought, my 996 felt much more quick than the 997 - Especially on low revs. Second... same driving style than on testdrive, I need around 13 ltr/100km with my 996, but I couldn't get the 997 down under 17.8!

    So... new car is good but not much better! And - in this two big criterias its even weak.

    L@rs

    Oct 11, 2004 12:10:23 PM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: Lars997M

    Re: 997S Steering Has Moved Backwards...

    I would love to hear the reasons by PAG regarding those issues!

    Lars, I sadly believe that you're not the only one with this opinion. It is a good thing by Porsche to prevent dramatic steps from one model range to the other but in this case they were a bit too reluctant, it seems. I'd say people are quite aware of their money and where they can spend it. A 370hp engine in the 997S and people would be more enthusiastic about this car!
    There would still be enough room left to the TT and GT3!

    Oct 11, 2004 2:58:25 PM

    RCA
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    RC
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: 997S Steering Has Moved Backwards...

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    Can you select 1st gear when you put it in 2nd first?
    Possible that point 2 and 7 are related to each other? It would make sense...

    Share your opinon on the gas consumption - especially compared to the 996!
    Actually, how much weight do the 19" wheels have? It could be that the low acc. figures (compared to the 996 LK) could be related to the increase in rotating masses also.



    Very good thoughts. No, even if I put in the 2nd gear, the 1st gear doesn't pop in afterwards. Only releasing the clutch (in neutral of course ) and applying it again helps. To use force helps too and it doesn't make any noises but I won't try that anymore because I'm sure something will brake. Regarding the clutch hauling noise, I'm clueless and so is my mechanic who never heard the noise. A friend had such a noise when he exchanged his clutch disc with one made of a different material but I don't think this is the reason because for the first 3000 km, the hauling sound wasn't there. Most people won't even hear it but I'm used to listening and paying attention to certain things on cars.
    The fuel consumption is a bit too high. My former powerkit 996 C4 with 325 HP had a fuel consumption of around 16 litres at max. Usually I was able to drive around with 12-13 litres/100 km and I won't forget a short trip where I was driving at around 100-120 kph only and I had a fuel consumption of 8-9 litres only. Even when I drive slowly, I can't get a better fuel consumption than 12-13 litres with the 997 Carrera S. Not that I really care (my Cayenne Turbo eats up to 38 litres when he and I are in a good mood for speed...)

    Regarding the 19'' wheel weight and the other issues, I might hopefully get an answer next week.

    Oct 11, 2004 4:56:05 PM

    ADias
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997S Steering Has Moved Backwards...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    1. engine is good for at least 380 HP, I always have the feeling that the engine is somehow "castrated", funny.
    2. the 1st gear sometimes doesn't want to pop in when I'm standing at a stop light with the gears in neutral and the only way to get it to pop in is to release the clutch and apply it again or to use extensive force which can't be too healthy.



    Isn't this a Japanese gearbox? That has been my experience w/ Japanese gearboxes. Often, temperature dependent, the 1st gear does not engage until you engage another gear, switch to neutral, release the clutch, push the clutch engage 1st, in that sequence.

    Quote:

    6. fuel consumption higher than expected, around 17-18 litres/100 km now (driving as fast as possible whenever road conditions, speed limits, etc. permit)



    6. is in conflict w/ 1. above

    Oct 12, 2004 2:43:12 AM

    vtrader
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997S Steering Has Moved Backwards...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Regarding the 19'' wheel weight ...



    Could that explain why the standard 997 feels to be more robust below 4500 RPM? Didn't all the standard 997 you tested RC come with 18" wheels?

    Oct 12, 2004 2:46:46 AM

    lev
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    lev
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997S Steering Has Moved Backwards...

    RC,

    I have 15L/100km average on my 996TT. Your CarreraS consumption figure is really too high in my view.

    Oct 12, 2004 6:58:03 AM

    dhayek Offline
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    dhayek
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    Reply to: lev

    Re: 997S Steering Has Moved Backwards...

    Quote:
    lev said:
    RC,

    I have 15L/100km average on my 996TT. Your CarreraS consumption figure is really too high in my view.


    15 liters average ?wow ..i could never manage to go less than 20liters in my previous tt..but i have to say i live in the city and i spend most of my time there ,that could explain it.you are probably most of the time on highway?

    Oct 12, 2004 8:15:03 AM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: dhayek

    Re: 997S Steering Has Moved Backwards...

    Dimitri,

    what's your gas consumtion on the 997 so far?

    Greetings!

    Oct 12, 2004 9:17:16 AM

    dhayek Offline
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: 997S Steering Has Moved Backwards...

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    Dimitri,

    what's your gas consumtion on the 997 so far?

    Greetings!


    hi ferdie ,my average consumption is around 18/19 liters ,but note that i am always full blast ,and always in the city .whenever i go out from beirut ,the consumption drops to 14 ,15
     
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