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Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
Quote:
MaxErnst said:
I'm not sure, but doesn't the 997 have the recorder which records and archives all the information?
My M3 has it, used for warrenty "protection" they know exactly what you did to the car and engine during it's lifetime.
Diagnosis systems ain't that clever. Or more precisely, their memory capacity is not big enough to store all of "exactly what you did to the car and engine during it's lifetime".
What they can do is to store the number of ignition cycles for which the engine was run over certain preset rev limits, these presets being at engine speeds above the ignition/injection cut-off points.
Due to over-revving only being possible as a result of down-shifting at too high a road speed (i.e., the engine is spun up to excessive speed in a lower gear by the momentum of the car) this diagnosis function is a tell-tale if an engine gets blown as a result of driver error.
The diagnosis system would not show that the driver has dropped the clutch at a high engine speed still below the normal ignition cut-off speed. But if the car is damaged as a result (clutch, drive shafts), the cause of the damage would generally show up in lab tests of the damaged parts. It would normally be possible to distinguish between part failures resulting from pre-existing production or material faults and from driver abuse, just by studying the nature of the damage and the characteristics of the parts.
Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
MaxErnst said:
I'm not sure, but doesn't the 997 have the recorder which records and archives all the information?
My M3 has it, used for warrenty "protection" they know exactly what you did to the car and engine during it's lifetime.
Diagnosis systems ain't that clever. Or more precisely, their memory capacity is not big enough to store all of "exactly what you did to the car and engine during it's lifetime".
edited
At last I understand, thank you Doctor.
Black Boxes -- the data recorder
Quote:
vtrader said:
The next step for these data recorders (black boxes) is to be used in accident investigations and used by lawyers to prove that their client caused/did not cause the accident.
I am considering getting a DL1 data logger. I've been discussing this on various groups. One issue that was brought up was the potential for the police to seize the data in the case of an accident or incident.
So yes, the black box issue is very concern!
Stephen
Oct 11, 2004 6:56:12 PM
- SoCalHoosier
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- Loc: California , United States
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- Registered on: Jun 13, 2003
- Reply to: Texas911
Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
Quote:
Texas911 said:
Nope, it has shorter gearing.
So if I put really short gearing in my ride-on lawn mower it could do 0 to 60 in ..........
I don't think so!
(I think I'm going to like this emoticon! 
).Shorter gearing means running out of revs faster in each gear means shifting up oftener means spending more time between gears means ....... you get the message, right.
Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
Times are impressive (hate to see what that axle tramp did to the diff), but the speed #'s seem to match - 0-100 is in the low 10's, where the Turbo and GT3 are in the low 9's (big difference). The 112 mph trap time is fast, but probably trapped right before a shift (optimal).
Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
Quote:
What they can do is to store the number of ignition cycles for which the engine was run over certain preset rev limits, these presets being at engine speeds above the ignition/injection cut-off points.
I've heard elsewhere that it stores the number of events where (a) the car has hit the rev-limiter on the way up, and (b) number of times it has exceeded the max engine speed during down-changes. Not quite sure what the point is of recording the former, as surely that is what the rev-limiter is there for?
Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
Quote:
TimD said:Quote:
What they can do is to store the number of ignition cycles for which the engine was run over certain preset rev limits, these presets being at engine speeds above the ignition/injection cut-off points.
I've heard elsewhere that it stores the number of events where (a) the car has hit the rev-limiter on the way up, and (b) number of times it has exceeded the max engine speed during down-changes. Not quite sure what the point is of recording the former, as surely that is what the rev-limiter is there for?
I can't confirm that a) is correct. I guess it would give the dealer's techie an opportunity to tell you what a klutz you are not to be able to shift up in time!
I'm looking forward to that. 
Re b): If I remember correctly, it tells how many ignition cycles (proportional to number of engine revolutions, of course) that the engine spent above each of the pre-defined overrevving threshold speeds. For example, if injection cut-out speed is 8000 rpm, first threshold may be at 8200 rpm, and 2nd. threshold at 8400 rpm. (Don't take those figures as gospel, I just used them to explain the concept). Lots of revs spent above threshold 1 would suggest the driver has oversped the engine on several occasions.
The techie can also read out when the overrevving took place, so if engine was overrevved after 251.5 operating hours, and suffered total failure after 251.5 operating hours, the driver will have a hard time convincing anyone that the failure was a result of an assembly error at the factory, and nothing to do with abuse on his part!
Oct 11, 2004 11:21:06 PM
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RC
- Rennteam Administrator
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- Reply to: SoCalHoosier
Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:
So a GT3 with 380HP should be able to be launched in the same time as a heavier 997S with only 350HP?!? Some numbers here seem goofy.
Maybe a very "special" 997S was sent for testing.
The 996 GT3 has been tested in german car magazines running from 0-62 mph in 4.6 seconds.
Three different(!) 997 Carrera S have been tested at the same time, 4.6 seconds. One car has been tested in 4.7 seconds.
From 0-125 mph, the 996 GT3 has been tested at 14.8 seconds.
The best 0-125 mph performance figure tested for the 997 Carrera S was 16.1 seconds, only 1.3 seconds more.
Imagine what 1.3 seconds are, it only needs a driver who can upshift/work the clutch slightly faster and there you go...
I mentioned my "encounter" with that 993 Turbo with 450 HP powerkit and although he came nearer and nearer, he wasn't able to pass me from 80 kph up to 220 kph when he slowed down before a curve, falling back again. So it took him the whole time from 80 kph to 220 kph to be able to get side by side to my car. Even considering the safety distance of around 10 meters he was keeping when I drove at 80 kph, it is still a pretty impressive performance.
The 997 Carrera S has been weighted (not factory claim!) at 1482 kg, a car with PASM and steel brake. A car without PASM and with PCCB weights more than 30 kg less, which would result in something around 1450 kg.
The 996 GT3 has been weighted (not factory claim!) at 1428 kg, a car equipped with PCCB. Without PCCB, the weight would be around 1450 kg, same weight as my 997 Carrera S.
Now take the 26 HP difference and this is all what remains.
Quarter mile results are pretty similar too, 12.9 sec. for the 997 Carrera S in one test and 12.6 sec. for the GT3. You see that the values vary but are pretty close to each other. This is only one test, there are better values available for the 997 Carrera S and for the GT3.
And finally, how about comparing the 0-60 kph performance? This is where the 997 Carrera S even outruns the GT3 with 2.1 seconds vs the 2.3 seconds of the GT3.
To make it short: performance figures are pretty close one to each other, especially in the lower speed range. The GT3 starts to take off at around 100 mph but below it, performance is pretty much the same compared to the 997 Carrera S, below one second difference.
And to make the comparison complete: compared to the "old" 996 GT3 MkI with 360 HP, the first GT3 series which wasn't available in the US, the 997 Carrera S has practically the same performance figures. But from 0-62 mph, the 997 Carrera S does 4.6 seconds, the GT3 Mk1 needs 4.8 seconds.
Quarter mile and 0-125 mph performance are the same too.
Pretty impressive for a "normal" 911 if you ask me.
And finally, a pretty interesting comparison to the famous and much lighter 993 Carrera RS: 5.1 seconds from 0-62 mph for the 993 Carrera RS and 4.6 seconds from 0-62 mph for the 997 Carrera S. Half a second faster, impressive.
From 0-125 mph however, the RS is at the same performance level as the current 996 GT3.
Conclusion: the 911 is no car for drag races, performance figures below 100 mph are pretty much the same with some marginal differences.
If you want pure straight line performance, you need a 911 Turbo or 911 GT2. Case closed.
Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
You forgot to add Car and Drivers 0 to 60 run of 4.1 
If you want pure straight line performance, you need an American Muscle Car. You of all people know that Porsche claims their dominance in the curves, not in a straight line
Quote:
RC said:
If you want pure straight line performance, you need a 911 Turbo or 911 GT2. Case closed.
If you want pure straight line performance, you need an American Muscle Car. You of all people know that Porsche claims their dominance in the curves, not in a straight line
Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
Quote:
RC said:
...for the 993 Carrera RS and 4.6 seconds from 0-62 mph for the 997 Carrera S. Half a second faster, impressive.
From 0-125 mph however, the RS is at the same performance level as the current 996 GT3.
You are saying the 993 RS is similiarly fast to 200 kph as the current GT3? How come?
You might be right on the acc. issue for the 997 but the "at least subjectively" low torque below 5k RPM is very obvious.
Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
Quote:
dhayek said:
rc , i was wondering ,who do they manage to get 0 to 62 in 4.6sec ,when porsche claims 4.8sec?
Car and Driver is infamous for wringing every last drop of performance from the cars they test.
And, ... since the cars do not belong to them, they are completely fearless in what they do to the cars to obtain the numbers you see.
Ordinarily, tires and clutches are on the repair list when they are finished "testing".
Porsche, on the other hand, has to be careful when making performance claims for their products. There are severe legal penalties in some countries for "false advertising" should EVERY car not live up to the claims made.
Manufacturers are, by necessity, more conservative than a magazine test needs to be.
Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
I don't think C&D is the only magazine performing like this - I wouldn't buy a former testcar from any company!
Porsche is rather conservative with their performance figures, so that less experienced drivers and / or despite tarmac with lower friction / hot weather / higher load will still be able to achieve good results.
Much unlike Ferrari and some other manufacturers...
Porsche is rather conservative with their performance figures, so that less experienced drivers and / or despite tarmac with lower friction / hot weather / higher load will still be able to achieve good results.
Much unlike Ferrari and some other manufacturers...
Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
Quote:
Ferdie said:
I don't think C&D is the only magazine performing like this - I wouldn't buy a former testcar from any company!
The issue is to know where you car comes from. I think they are quite creative to find a good story for such cars. So if you can afford it... buy a new one.
Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
Quote:
Ferdie said:
I don't think C&D is the only magazine performing like this - I wouldn't buy a former testcar from any company!
Porsche is rather conservative with their performance figures, so that less experienced drivers and / or despite tarmac with lower friction / hot weather / higher load will still be able to achieve good results.
Much unlike Ferrari and some other manufacturers...
Today I "raced" a motorcycle and got a thumbs up from this guy. It was a stop light to stop light acceleration OUTSIDE the city up to a speed of around 135 kph (I admit that "only" 120 kph were allowed
). The second stop light was at the beginning of a street working area, this is why the distance was so short. I had a good start, I'd even say a perfect one, the motorcycle was right next to me on the right but wasn't able to pass me. It was no 160 HP superduper motorcycle, probably just a 75 HP or so machine.But even these motorcycles have 0-62 mph performances in the 4 seconds range or even below it.
Now please guys, don't blame me for acting like a little kid racing from one stop light to the other. I always drive off pretty fast because I'm in love with traction. My former E55 really made me cry when starting off, my wife's SLK 32 AMG starts to dance and the tires squeak very loud with ESP turned off and my Cayenne Turbo has a 1-2 seconds lag until it takes off from standstill. I'm REALLY in love with the 997 Carrera S traction but to disappoint some of you now: the PASM equipped Carrera S had a very good traction too but although chrono sport was active, the PSM light came on and the rear axle started to rattle pretty loud for the first meters. The LSD of the 20 mm chassis equipped car really makes a difference. A huge one.
Regarding performance figures of car magazines: what some people might not know is the fact that some car magazines publish the BEST numbers only of a test series and some other car magazines (like AMS or SPORT AUTO) publish the "medium" number calculated out of 10(!) tests.
I still think that 4.6 seconds from 0-62 mph are pretty impressive for a car which weights almost 1500 kg.
Re: 997, does it have an event data recorder on steroids?
Regarding street racing, which I don't officially condone, it's the balls and technique of the driver that often makes the biggest difference. For example, my 2001 Boxster 2.7 is hardly the fastest car in a drag race, yet I've left many a car behind because I know how to "get on it" and how to shift properly. There are people who think that they have a fast car and that mashing on the gas pedal is all that it takes, but they don't know how to launch the car, their reaction time sucks, and so on. It helps if they have an automatic where they don't have to think much, but even then many of them just don't seem to be able to go as quickly as they should.
The "balls" or "nerve" factor is also important. In a Porsche you know that you have good brakes, that you can take almost any corner, and the car simply "feels" right when at speed. Many other cars are not so confidence-inspiring, and the drivers will give up at a given speed or under certain road conditions.
For example, many people like to whine about Porsches not having the highest horsepower, the best 0-60 MPH times, and so on. They often say that the 350Z/WRX/Evo/M3/blah blah blah are quicker, faster, etc., yet they don't take into account how those cars actually feel. I owned a WRX wagon with a Stage II kit (~260-270 HP), ProDrive lowering springs, 18" BBS wheels with Pirelli tires, etc., and quite frankly it would spank the Boxster and give many Porsches a good run up to 60 MPH or so. However, any speeds over 80 MPH weren't much fun in the WRX, whereas most any Porsche can easily handle 120+ MPH with no problem. And that's on an open road in a straight line. Throw in some curves or other interesting conditions and even the "lowliest" Boxster will quickly demonstrate what a Porsche is really all about.
BTW, my 996 Cup car has the World Challenge mods and is pushing 450+ HP, and will quite readily spank a 996 TT, 996 GT3, and most other Porsches except for the 600 HP turbo race cars. I don't know what the 0-60, 1/4 mile, etc. times are, but it accelerates like the proverbial "bat out of hell", and could probably outrun most any road car excepting a few true supercars. That being the case, the 997 S can still scare me with how quickly it can accelerate, and how fast I can be going at a high rate of speed without trying. Anyone who thinks that the 997 S is in any way slow must have a very different perspective on things or is simply ignorant.
The "balls" or "nerve" factor is also important. In a Porsche you know that you have good brakes, that you can take almost any corner, and the car simply "feels" right when at speed. Many other cars are not so confidence-inspiring, and the drivers will give up at a given speed or under certain road conditions.
For example, many people like to whine about Porsches not having the highest horsepower, the best 0-60 MPH times, and so on. They often say that the 350Z/WRX/Evo/M3/blah blah blah are quicker, faster, etc., yet they don't take into account how those cars actually feel. I owned a WRX wagon with a Stage II kit (~260-270 HP), ProDrive lowering springs, 18" BBS wheels with Pirelli tires, etc., and quite frankly it would spank the Boxster and give many Porsches a good run up to 60 MPH or so. However, any speeds over 80 MPH weren't much fun in the WRX, whereas most any Porsche can easily handle 120+ MPH with no problem. And that's on an open road in a straight line. Throw in some curves or other interesting conditions and even the "lowliest" Boxster will quickly demonstrate what a Porsche is really all about.
BTW, my 996 Cup car has the World Challenge mods and is pushing 450+ HP, and will quite readily spank a 996 TT, 996 GT3, and most other Porsches except for the 600 HP turbo race cars. I don't know what the 0-60, 1/4 mile, etc. times are, but it accelerates like the proverbial "bat out of hell", and could probably outrun most any road car excepting a few true supercars. That being the case, the 997 S can still scare me with how quickly it can accelerate, and how fast I can be going at a high rate of speed without trying. Anyone who thinks that the 997 S is in any way slow must have a very different perspective on things or is simply ignorant.
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