Crown
Board: Porsche - Panamera
Language: English
Region: Worldwide
Close
CloseForum - Thread
Oct 6, 2008 5:44:58 AM
- Spyderidol
- Rennteam Master
-
- Loc: Mozambique
- Posts: 5807, Gallery
- Registered on: Apr 25, 2007
- Reply to: JP66
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
JP66 said:
.... No way the real door is over a foot thick!
I still believe in the cocoon
I'd suggest that you go and have a look at how "thick" a Cayenne door is
The only camo on this door is a very thin outer panel, the edge of which appears white in this pic. Of greater concern is a point we made at the start of this year about this pic. For such a long car just look at how little rear legroom there is. It looks like the guy in the rear is having to contort his feet to get out.
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
I can't go into too many details but let me say this: I'm a bit disappointed. I'm not particulary a limousine lover, after my former Mercedes E55, I'm kind of "healed" regarding fast limousines. I prefer sportscars or SUVs(family). However: in my opinion, the new Panamera suffers from the first generation Cayenne "syndrome". For me, this was a love/hate relationship and still is. I didn't like the exterior at all(my wife calls the Cayenne ugly but she likes to be seen in it because apparently all her female friends admire the Cayenne, probably because they know it costs a lot of money) and I also dislike the interior to some point. Well, the Panamera interior isn't bad at all(reminds me a bit of mixture between the Cayenne and a VW Phaeton with a few Audi elements) but the exterior...no comment. The second generation may be better looking but to be honest, I think I'm going to pass on this one.
As much as I love Porsche, I realized that their products get more and more expensive but at the same time don't deliver the value I was hoping for. The new 997 Facelift is a very good example, this is how the 997 should have been(especially technology and power-wise) from the start when Porsche introduced it a couple of years ago.
Also look at the Cayenne: Porsche introduces two Diesel engines in the Cayenne but in my opinion, the Cayenne is dead. Porsche is too late doing the wrong things.
Cayenne buyers over here in Germany seem to be the dumbest folk around, including myself. I never saw a value of a car drop that much. Our MY 2007 Cayenne Turbo S(new price around 136000 EUR) has only 26000 km and is in mint condition. A BMW dealer offered me 35000 EUR for this truck.
Ouch. It is impossible to sell it, not that I want it but I tried, almost just for fun. No chance to get more than 50000 EUR for this thing, ridiculous. This is partly Porsche's fault because when the media started to blame the Cayenne for almost everything, incl. the 1st and 2nd World War
, Porsche stood by, watched and didn't do anything. The Cayenne has probably the worst reputation of a car in Germany because of the high fuel consumption and of course because it is expensive and the media(mostly left-oriented or boulevard media) loves to mock "rich" people and their toys.
Anyway: the Panamera isn't what I have hoped for when Porsche introduced the idea of this limousine. It may also have to do with the fact that Mercedes "stole" Porsche the momentum of introducing a sporty limousine(Mercedes CLS).
Yes, the Panamera will be VERY fast, especially the top model, despite it's weight. I still think it doesn't look how I wanted it too look, so Porsche is apparently playing the same old(love/hate relationship first gen model) card here, hoping for people to go for the second generation too because they didn't really like the first one.
Sorry, Porsche but the "value for your money" thing has vanished from your products. This is why my wife decided to go for a BMW M3 Cab instead of a 997 Carrera Cab. Despite the "saved" 30000 EUR, our kids also have much more leg room in the rear seat compartment.
I love Porsche but I started to look at alternatives, not only because they sometimes offer more but also because money is tight right now and I don't want to drive a car at no matter what cost just because I'm a Porschephile.
As much as I love Porsche, I realized that their products get more and more expensive but at the same time don't deliver the value I was hoping for. The new 997 Facelift is a very good example, this is how the 997 should have been(especially technology and power-wise) from the start when Porsche introduced it a couple of years ago.
Also look at the Cayenne: Porsche introduces two Diesel engines in the Cayenne but in my opinion, the Cayenne is dead. Porsche is too late doing the wrong things.
Cayenne buyers over here in Germany seem to be the dumbest folk around, including myself. I never saw a value of a car drop that much. Our MY 2007 Cayenne Turbo S(new price around 136000 EUR) has only 26000 km and is in mint condition. A BMW dealer offered me 35000 EUR for this truck.
Ouch. It is impossible to sell it, not that I want it but I tried, almost just for fun. No chance to get more than 50000 EUR for this thing, ridiculous. This is partly Porsche's fault because when the media started to blame the Cayenne for almost everything, incl. the 1st and 2nd World War
, Porsche stood by, watched and didn't do anything. The Cayenne has probably the worst reputation of a car in Germany because of the high fuel consumption and of course because it is expensive and the media(mostly left-oriented or boulevard media) loves to mock "rich" people and their toys.Anyway: the Panamera isn't what I have hoped for when Porsche introduced the idea of this limousine. It may also have to do with the fact that Mercedes "stole" Porsche the momentum of introducing a sporty limousine(Mercedes CLS).
Yes, the Panamera will be VERY fast, especially the top model, despite it's weight. I still think it doesn't look how I wanted it too look, so Porsche is apparently playing the same old(love/hate relationship first gen model) card here, hoping for people to go for the second generation too because they didn't really like the first one.
Sorry, Porsche but the "value for your money" thing has vanished from your products. This is why my wife decided to go for a BMW M3 Cab instead of a 997 Carrera Cab. Despite the "saved" 30000 EUR, our kids also have much more leg room in the rear seat compartment.
I love Porsche but I started to look at alternatives, not only because they sometimes offer more but also because money is tight right now and I don't want to drive a car at no matter what cost just because I'm a Porschephile.
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Christian,
I totally understand you and my feelings are going in the same directions. Value for money is not fair anymore. Despite, if I sit in my new 535D I have almost more fun and more Luxury in the same time as with my Carrera S Convertible. Its just the Status what is left over.
In case of Panamera, I fear, that Porsche can not pick up with the modern Technology of a Luxury Sedan like the BMW 7. No way that Porsche's first shot will have same technology.
My wife and I are discussing often what we do next. I think we will keep the Carrera S for another Season and after that I hope to find new Sportcars from BMW suiting our wishes.
I only can tell you that you did the right thing with the M3. Great car, amazing engine and in behave of the kids absolutely the right thing.
I totally understand you and my feelings are going in the same directions. Value for money is not fair anymore. Despite, if I sit in my new 535D I have almost more fun and more Luxury in the same time as with my Carrera S Convertible. Its just the Status what is left over.
In case of Panamera, I fear, that Porsche can not pick up with the modern Technology of a Luxury Sedan like the BMW 7. No way that Porsche's first shot will have same technology.
My wife and I are discussing often what we do next. I think we will keep the Carrera S for another Season and after that I hope to find new Sportcars from BMW suiting our wishes.
I only can tell you that you did the right thing with the M3. Great car, amazing engine and in behave of the kids absolutely the right thing.
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
I have spent a lot of time with the current generation Audi S8; while it's an amazing car it doesn't even come close to the fun you can have with a 997 in roundabouts, Autobahn exits or winding mountain roads. It's the thrill of driving in an everyday car that justifies the 911 for me.
If the Panamera will be as much fun to drive while providing room for a family of 3 it's my next car.
If the Panamera will be as much fun to drive while providing room for a family of 3 it's my next car.
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
RC said:
I can't go into too many details but let me say this: I'm a bit disappointed. ..... in my opinion, the new Panamera suffers from the first generation Cayenne "syndrome". ...........
the Panamera isn't what I have hoped for when Porsche introduced the idea of this limousine. ....... I still think it doesn't look how I wanted it too look,
That does not sound good for all those hoping that this frog of a mule will turn into a Prince.
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
Despite, if I sit in my new 535D I have almost more fun and more Luxury in the same time as with my Carrera S Convertible
Hmmm ... i own a x3 3.0sd and a 335d ... and shure those cars have powerful engines with much low-end torque ... but ... a carrera, even a base modell is a lot of fun, when driven with some effort
... the BMW Diesel are pure transportation ... fast and efficient and that's it.I cannot understand the praise for the new M3 ... i personally don't like the chassis in combination with the stock rims and tyres ... lack of grip ... unstable on bumpy surfaces on the break when driven hard ... and ... where are the 420 HP ??? Especially the convertible seems to eat them all with its excessive weight
And it takes a lot of gas for its performance.A base 997/2 will outperform the M3 ... yes, i know ... on the paper the M3 is supposed to be faster ... but real life tells another story ... we tested the cars back to back together with an Alpina B3 using a Performace-Box.
Personally i'd prefer a BoxsterS over any BMW as a fun car.
For mainly Autobahn-bashing i could live with the BMW.
As for the Panamera ... i think it will the benchmark as far as dynamics and handling in the limousine mass market is concerned.
Cheers
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
RC said:
I love Porsche but I started to look at alternatives, not only because they sometimes offer more but also because money is tight right now and I don't want to drive a car at no matter what cost just because I'm a Porschephile.
Christian is buying a GT-R.
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
@Rookie,
you are right, for sure my C2S is more powerful than the 535d. Anyway, in normal daily situation, either I'm driving long or short distance, the power of the BMW is more than enough. Overtaking is as easy as gliding. Further, the car has many more features and in the same time comfort and sportiness as it has enough space for shopping, travel and sport. So its a pretty good all rounder.
On the other hand the 911. A fantastic sporty car. Anyway - the power (feeling) is not that strong at all. I think it should be a Turbo to has the WOW-effect. The 911 is rough and noisy. 250 km/h with the BMW feels like 140 with the Porsche. Of course it is crazy how the Porsche delivers the power in high turns and how it goes from 230 to 270. Anyway, this situations are very very rare.
Yes - if I wouldn't love the Porsche I would have one and of course, I would not come to Rennteam every day. The car was my childhood dream and of course a part of the motivation for my hard work in the job. In other words, even with all the disadvantages I love it so strong to put that much money and (more hard) yearly loss on the table.
I hope that Porsche finds back with the technology innovations. It might be that coming closer to VW will help here. Otherwise I had my motivation and will check other brands in the future. As we see, the Italians becoming better and better form year to year
you are right, for sure my C2S is more powerful than the 535d. Anyway, in normal daily situation, either I'm driving long or short distance, the power of the BMW is more than enough. Overtaking is as easy as gliding. Further, the car has many more features and in the same time comfort and sportiness as it has enough space for shopping, travel and sport. So its a pretty good all rounder.
On the other hand the 911. A fantastic sporty car. Anyway - the power (feeling) is not that strong at all. I think it should be a Turbo to has the WOW-effect. The 911 is rough and noisy. 250 km/h with the BMW feels like 140 with the Porsche. Of course it is crazy how the Porsche delivers the power in high turns and how it goes from 230 to 270. Anyway, this situations are very very rare.
Yes - if I wouldn't love the Porsche I would have one and of course, I would not come to Rennteam every day. The car was my childhood dream and of course a part of the motivation for my hard work in the job. In other words, even with all the disadvantages I love it so strong to put that much money and (more hard) yearly loss on the table.
I hope that Porsche finds back with the technology innovations. It might be that coming closer to VW will help here. Otherwise I had my motivation and will check other brands in the future. As we see, the Italians becoming better and better form year to year
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
neunelf said:
I have spent a lot of time with the current generation Audi S8; while it's an amazing car it doesn't even come close to the fun you can have with a 997 in roundabouts, Autobahn exits or winding mountain roads. It's the thrill of driving in an everyday car that justifies the 911 for me.
If the Panamera will be as much fun to drive while providing room for a family of 3 it's my next car.
Did you notice that the A8 has rear seats
Just kidding, I understand your point: a limousine is always a compromise in terms of sportscar qualities. If you can afford to do without rear seats there is no substitute to a 997
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
I hope that Porsche finds back with the technology innovations. It might be that coming closer to VW will help here. Otherwise I had my motivation and will check other brands in the future. As we see, the Italians becoming better and better form year to year
I know what you mean ... that's when the brain starts to work on your decisions about cars
I have flirted with a new AMV8 ... but the prospects of even higher losses concerning residuals put me off
But it is a fascinating car ... eben better with the new 4.7 engine.So i'll stick to my 993tt porsche-wise ... love that car!!!
Cheers
Tom
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
RC said:
Sorry, Porsche but the "value for your money" thing has vanished from your products.
You have a point here. Porsche prices are indeed quite high.
But then, I just had this experience...
After a weekend in the GT2 (including some 350km of track driving and some 800km of AB driving) I took the 599 for a ride earlier today. I was shocked
The GT2 is such a great car that it simply reduces the 599 to a great looking car with a beautiful V12 and a F1 gear-box.
The way how the GT2 feels and handles is out of another world: steering, suspension, road feed-back, brakes, clutch, gear-box, the turbo power, the marvellous seats, the great new PCM, even the lever of the driection indicator. Everything in this car is just perfection. Certainly, they do ask a lot for this type of car. However, is it worth it? Every cent of it
Then, I did a test drive in the 997 with PDK quite recently. After having driven the M3 (ours is due in December as we wait for the PDK update as you recommended) I have to say: this car and the PDK in particular is absolutely amazing. The steering, the suspension, the sound - just great. PDK is approximately 3 leagues above BMW's DKG: no delayed throttle response, good feel of power in inner-city driving, smooth shifts, very fast reaction to kick-downs (7th to 3rd in just 1/100s), the speed of manual upshifts. Again, is the 997 worth its price if compared to the M3? I think so (I am sure you think so as well).
In essence, the pricing of Porsche is indeed quite aggressive. However, if you ask for the value added delivered you always get it (I have no personal experience with the Cayenne, though)
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Rear seats, usable trunk space, 4WD that's actually useful in real snow,... If the Panamera matches all that and provides the same kind of driving excitement it would make it real game changer.
I'm not even talking about lap times but sheer pleasure, the grin on your face when you get out of your car after a drive over a Swiss mountain pass
I'm not even talking about lap times but sheer pleasure, the grin on your face when you get out of your car after a drive over a Swiss mountain pass
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
reginos said:
What innovations do you have in mind?
Very helpful and used by me every day: Active Steering, Dynamic Drive, Head Up Display, A phone where the other side of the call can understand you (very important)
Further the BMW has many more gadgets which I dont expect in a Porsche but they make life much easier: Active Cruise Control, Lane Assist, Navi with Internet, Night Vision, Online Assist Service (car has a second phone installed where you can call for free an Assist Service. You can ask them for an address (restaurant, company, private name, whatever), they see where you are with your car and can assist to find whatever you are looking for. Once they found it they send the address into your car where you can use the phone number and the adress for Navigation. Second example, if you have parked your car at the airport and you loose your key, they can open the car for you with the remote service (via that 2nd phone)). Other gadtes: Ventilated massage seats, automatic closing doors, keyless go, and and and
I think we are in a Luxury Price Range. And we are talking about innovations we might want to find in a Panamera. All those things I have already in my 5 series. If you go for a 7 there is even more to get. In this Car Type I expect those Luxury and Comfort Features. For an 911 it might be acceptable, but to be honest even here I wished to find more things. I dont do track racing with my car and basicly its my Convertible Cruiser. So I would love to see some Innovations in this car making the ride more comfortable and safer (i.e. Adaptive Cruise Control).
So - now please no discussion about what you think I dont need to have in a Porsche. This is my personal expectations for cars in the 100+k range. Keep in mind, that most Porsches are sold to people who never want to race them!
Oct 6, 2008 4:50:57 PM
-
Ron (Houston)
- Rennteam Moderator
-
- Loc: Houston, TX , United States
- Posts: 8812, Gallery
- Registered on: Apr 10, 2002
-
Reply to:
Lars997
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
Lars997 said:Quote:
reginos said:
What innovations do you have in mind?
Very helpful and used by me every day: Active Steering, Dynamic Drive, Head Up Display, A phone where the other side of the call can understand you (very important)
Further the BMW has many more gadgets which I dont expect in a Porsche but they make life much easier: Active Cruise Control, Lane Assist, Navi with Internet, Night Vision, Online Assist Service (car has a second phone installed where you can call for free an Assist Service. You can ask them for an address (restaurant, company, private name, whatever), they see where you are with your car and can assist to find whatever you are looking for. Once they found it they send the address into your car where you can use the phone number and the adress for Navigation. Second example, if you have parked your car at the airport and you loose your key, they can open the car for you with the remote service (via that 2nd phone)). Other gadtes: Ventilated massage seats, automatic closing doors, keyless go, and and and
I think we are in a Luxury Price Range. And we are talking about innovations we might want to find in a Panamera. All those things I have already in my 5 series. If you go for a 7 there is even more to get. In this Car Type I expect those Luxury and Comfort Features. For an 911 it might be acceptable, but to be honest even here I wished to find more things. I dont do track racing with my car and basicly its my Convertible Cruiser. So I would love to see some Innovations in this car making the ride more comfortable and safer (i.e. Adaptive Cruise Control).
So - now please no discussion about what you think I dont need to have in a Porsche. This is my personal expectations for cars in the 100+k range. Keep in mind, that most Porsches are sold to people who never want to race them!
I agree with you that these features are part of motoring already. Sure the Panamera must have all or at least most of these features to be on par with competition, and I expect it will have them.
Not sure whether I would demand all those on a Carrera, although with the FL things have been added. The other side of the coin, many members here complain that even simple convenience features like ventilated seats and dymanic lights are superfluous and unnecessary on sports cars and Porsche shouldn't bother about them.
Oct 7, 2008 4:59:45 AM
- ADias
- Rennteam Pro
-
- Loc: Southwest USA , United States
- Posts: 2495, Gallery
- Registered on: Apr 9, 2004
- Reply to: Spyderidol
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
I agree with Christian. PAG has milked the 996.2, 997.1 and now 997.2 (and other lines) too much, offering just small increments for each new generation. I like the 997.2 but I agree that this same car should have been introduced 4 years ago. The reason i switched to a C6 was because I thought the 997.1 S was not offering enough for the cost. The 997.2 does, barely. The current economic crisis may add an additional monkey wrench in the works for PAG. We shall see.
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
Lars997 said:Quote:
reginos said:
What innovations do you have in mind?
Very helpful and used by me every day: Active Steering, Dynamic Drive, Head Up Display, A phone where the other side of the call can understand you (very important)
Further the BMW has many more gadgets which I dont expect in a Porsche but they make life much easier: Active Cruise Control, Lane Assist, Navi with Internet, Night Vision, Online Assist Service (car has a second phone installed where you can call for free an Assist Service. You can ask them for an address (restaurant, company, private name, whatever), they see where you are with your car and can assist to find whatever you are looking for. Once they found it they send the address into your car where you can use the phone number and the adress for Navigation. Second example, if you have parked your car at the airport and you loose your key, they can open the car for you with the remote service (via that 2nd phone)). Other gadtes: Ventilated massage seats, automatic closing doors, keyless go, and and and
I think we are in a Luxury Price Range. And we are talking about innovations we might want to find in a Panamera. All those things I have already in my 5 series. If you go for a 7 there is even more to get. In this Car Type I expect those Luxury and Comfort Features. For an 911 it might be acceptable, but to be honest even here I wished to find more things. I dont do track racing with my car and basicly its my Convertible Cruiser. So I would love to see some Innovations in this car making the ride more comfortable and safer (i.e. Adaptive Cruise Control).
So - now please no discussion about what you think I dont need to have in a Porsche. This is my personal expectations for cars in the 100+k range. Keep in mind, that most Porsches are sold to people who never want to race them!
I thought we were discussing sports cars and their value for what they are, not doodads one usually finds in executive express type sedans.
Besides the 997.2 already has plenty - PCM/NAV/BT/iPod.The 911 already has too much weight in useless stuff like Bose subs and stuff. No thanks!
For me the 911 should have the best engine/tranny available (the 997.2 is close) and a top notch chassis/suspension/steering which it has.
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
ADias said:
I thought we were discussing sports cars and their value for what they are, not doodads one usually finds in executive express type sedans.
As I said - a sports car doesnt need all of those features but a Panamera is a Luxury-Sport-Sedan where I expect many of those things.
And yes - the 997 has a Navigation with BT/iPod, but just now after the facelift and the Phone still doesnt work the way it should, the other side still complains about the awful quality!
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
If you could really get the feeling of driving a 911 with room for 4, would the lack of Active Cruise Control, Lane Assist, Navi with Internet, Night Vision, Online Assist Service, etc. really be a deal breaker?
If the lack of those gadgets would save weight and make the car perform noticeably better I am sure Porsche will sell this at a premium by calling it Porsche RS :P
If the lack of those gadgets would save weight and make the car perform noticeably better I am sure Porsche will sell this at a premium by calling it Porsche RS :P
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
neunelf said:
If you could really get the feeling of driving a 911 with room for 4, would the lack of Active Cruise Control, Lane Assist, Navi with Internet, Night Vision, Online Assist Service, etc. really be a deal breaker?
If the lack of those gadgets would save weight and make the car perform noticeably better I am sure Porsche will sell this at a premium by calling it Porsche RS :P
It seems these days, more and more unreasonable people want to have their cake and eat it too. Especially the Porsche fanboys out there.
A sedan without the expected gadgets is not worthy of the segment. Just because it secretly wants to be a 911 does not excuse it from lacking competency for what it actually is, a competitor for S600+s/760is/quattroporte/flying spurs.
Historically, cars that have tried to be two polar things simultaneously have failed miserably. Merc SLR/etc.
At this point in time, a high percentage of Porsche's products are oxymoronic compromises between luxury and sport. Bloated and and underachieving. No soul, no clearly defined purpose besides being a cleverly graduated series of Poseur products.
That is not to say you can't have a good balance... but clearly the cynical marketing department is much more involved in product development than it used to.
The point is, in regard to the quoted post...
How will you feel when it neither feels like a 911 to drive (regardless of how many seats it has) - nor is an adequate technological competitor for other luxury sedans?
At the end of the day the owner will have a bitter taste in their mouth, but will likely defend their purchase because they don't want to admit they were wrong- nothing to cling on to but the badge.
I fear that is what Porsche will soon become - luckily for them - their core customers don't seem to care.
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
ADias said:
I agree with Christian. PAG has milked the 996.2, 997.1 and now 997.2 (and other lines) too much, offering just small increments for each new generation. I like the 997.2 but I agree that this same car should have been introduced 4 years ago. The reason i switched to a C6 was because I thought the 997.1 S was not offering enough for the cost. The 997.2 does, barely. The current economic crisis may add an additional monkey wrench in the works for PAG. We shall see.
+1 - Adias, the only reason they do it is because they get away with it, time after time...
I get physically ill seeing how excited people get when they read that Porsche has improved some asinine part that no one will notice by 2.5% over the last generation...
I feel ashamed that I was once one of those sheepish fanboys, lapping up everything from the taskmasters at Weissach.
Re: (Photo Update) Panamera
Quote:
neunelf said:
[...]If the Panamera matches all that and provides the same kind of driving excitement it would make it real game changer.[...]
Rest assured, it won't be. Porsche is no longer in the business of "advancing the game" but rather of making money.
But as I said - Porsche will always have its fanboys to keep it warm.
If a new Porsche does not drive well, people will say, but it brings a grin to your face, even if it isn't the fastest/etc/etc car. What kind of weak excuse is that? That is not what the Porsche badge is supposed to stand for...
Forum
About Rennteam | Help | Terms of use | Privacy Policy | Support | Contact | Imprint | Archive
Powered by
Community
and
