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Re: 5th gear: boxster RS60 vs 996 c2 from 1997
For such a short track, I expected the RS60 to trump the 911, especially considering the difference in development.
Have asked me this particular question for so long, glad that they covered it. Could've imagined a slightly more extensive video though...
Have asked me this particular question for so long, glad that they covered it. Could've imagined a slightly more extensive video though...
Re: 5th gear: boxster RS60 vs 996 c2 from 1997
Well we are all surprised, to say the least, in the UK.
It may have something to do with the fact that Fifth Gear gave the Carrera away at the end of the program (and they were hardly going to give away a Pounds50000 RS60. for the cost of a premium rate phone call).
If it was a "serious" comparison, it seems to raise questions about PASM,ceramic Brakes, sport functions and their worth. The "old" technology of the 996 shouldn't really have been a match for the new 987 when thinking about where both engines are located, with same power and same weight.
However, Vickie didn't seem to be trying too hard to find either cars limits and as the other (male)presenters have posted faster times for both the S2000 and the RX8, I think it should be taken with a pinch of salt.
http://www.fastestlaps.com/track60.html
It may have something to do with the fact that Fifth Gear gave the Carrera away at the end of the program (and they were hardly going to give away a Pounds50000 RS60. for the cost of a premium rate phone call).
If it was a "serious" comparison, it seems to raise questions about PASM,ceramic Brakes, sport functions and their worth. The "old" technology of the 996 shouldn't really have been a match for the new 987 when thinking about where both engines are located, with same power and same weight.
However, Vickie didn't seem to be trying too hard to find either cars limits and as the other (male)presenters have posted faster times for both the S2000 and the RX8, I think it should be taken with a pinch of salt.
http://www.fastestlaps.com/track60.html
Sep 17, 2008 3:28:16 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
- Rennteam Master
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Re: 5th gear: boxster RS60 vs 996 c2 from 1997
Quote:
Ferdie said:
For such a short track, I expected the RS60 to trump the 911, especially considering the difference in development.
Actually I'm not that surprised. On such a short track (just 1,376 m) the 996 has the edge in getting off the line (similar weight + hp, but better traction) and tight corners are not a strong point of the 987 platform (missing LSD), whereas the 996 can outplay it's better traction here again.
It's another story with long, mid/highspeed corners though, where the 987 benefits from it's better balance.
Here are the well known numbers from some real tracks
Sportauto Supertest (Nordschleife - HHR)
Type / test date / laptimes
996 C2 / 01/98 / 8:17 - 1:15.9
996 C4 / 02/01 / 8:23 - 1:16.6
987S (3.2L) / 04/06 / 8:23 - 1:16.2
Sep 17, 2008 7:54:25 PM
- GR
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- Loc: S Bucks, England , United Kingdom
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Re: 5th gear: boxster RS60 vs 996 c2 from 1997
I think this was rigged.
The comparison was a 295bhp 996 v. a 303bhp 987S.
Now I remember when the facelifted 996 (320bhp) and 986S (260bhp) were tested by one of the UK car mags (can't remember which) at Thruxton, which is the fastest UK circuit, and the 996 beat the 986 by just a fraction of a second. Now here you'd expect the extra power of the 996 to be a distinct advantage but it wasn't.
In comparison, the Millbrook handling circuit is really tight, which should favour the mid engined layout. Yet compared to the Thruxton test, an older vintage 996 beat a bang up to date 987S on 19" rims with PCCB. And then they gave away said 996.....
The comparison was a 295bhp 996 v. a 303bhp 987S.
Now I remember when the facelifted 996 (320bhp) and 986S (260bhp) were tested by one of the UK car mags (can't remember which) at Thruxton, which is the fastest UK circuit, and the 996 beat the 986 by just a fraction of a second. Now here you'd expect the extra power of the 996 to be a distinct advantage but it wasn't.
In comparison, the Millbrook handling circuit is really tight, which should favour the mid engined layout. Yet compared to the Thruxton test, an older vintage 996 beat a bang up to date 987S on 19" rims with PCCB. And then they gave away said 996.....
Re: 5th gear: boxster RS60 vs 996 c2 from 1997
PJ, your considerations are certainly valid. Since they are backed up by von Saurma's HHR and NS laptimes one wonders why the older chassis with, to some people, inferior rear-engine layout is still faster...
Indeed, I hardly believe the 350Z is two seconds faster than the equally performing RS60...
Quote:
dbz said:
[...] the other (male)presenters have posted faster times
Indeed, I hardly believe the 350Z is two seconds faster than the equally performing RS60...
Re: 5th gear: boxster RS60 vs 996 c2 from 1997
There are a few factors here that may have contributed to the result, one being that the RS60 may not have been fully broken in. It still is quite an accomplishment given that the RS60 is a convertible, and racing it against an equally powerful hardtop.
vincesf
vincesf
Re: 5th gear: boxster RS60 vs 996 c2 from 1997
Quote:
vincesf said:
It still is quite an accomplishment given that the RS60 is a convertible, and racing it against an equally powerful hardtop.
vincesf
Agreed - proper test would've been Cayman S vs. 996 C2 or 996 Cab vs. Boxster RS60.
One of the other things I noticed but wasn't mentioned:
The first year of production was the only year of the 996 where Limited Slip Diff was optional and this car had it (Note she pressed the "TC OFF" button upon getaway). Later cars had PSM and no LSD. The Boxster doesn't have LSD. May be a big deal on a tight course like this...
Re: 5th gear: boxster RS60 vs 996 c2 from 1997
Quote:
CPA4S said:
great video - i would have thought the Boxster would have caught up with better braking.
PCCB doesn't actually shorten braking distances (just improves pedal feel, fade resistance and improves handling). The iron brakes are more than powerful enough to reach lock-up (or ABS) which is all that matters in stopping distance. Also, 911's more rear-biased setup is better under braking (closer to 50/50 weight distribution under braking).
Re: 5th gear: boxster RS60 vs 996 c2 from 1997
Quote:
Grant said:
The first year of production was the only year of the 996 where Limited Slip Diff was optional
Grant,
if I remember correctly the LSD was an option at the end of its lifecycle. At least I have a vague memory to discover that option in the order guide.
Re: 5th gear: boxster RS60 vs 996 c2 from 1997
Quote:
Ferdie said:Quote:
Grant said:
The first year of production was the only year of the 996 where Limited Slip Diff was optional
Grant,
if I remember correctly the LSD was an option at the end of its lifecycle. At least I have a vague memory to discover that option in the order guide.
Hi Ferdie - Yes, there was a limited edition 40th Anniversary Model for 2004 that included both PSM and LSD (first time) and X51 motor (345hp).
Car had narrow body with C4S nose and polished wheels and sport suspension and a couple other cosmetic details. That was a 3.6L model and the video specified a pre-facelift 3.4L model which only had LSD the first year (at least in the US - maybe 2 in ROW). I should've been more specific
Sep 30, 2008 5:05:35 PM
- Silver Bullet
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Re: 5th gear: boxster RS60 vs 996 c2 from 1997
There is really very little evidence that PCCB's brake better (is. in shorter distance). They do provide for more predictable braking over repeated braking (less fade) and are a little lighter (though that is unsprung weight savings!). The real benefit is the predictability.
I'm not that surprised by this result. The differences between these cars and successive Porsche generations are really much much smaller than we expect. On the track, it often boils down to driver experience. A Cayman S at our autocross events regularly posts times that rival those of the Carrera S and GT3s. The differences between 997 and 996 are really negligible in terms of numbers unless you are Walter Rohl.
The great news here is that those who cannot afford the latest and greatest can still get absolutely terrific cars and driving experiences.
Also, if you really like going to the track, it seems silly to me to do so with your brand new Porsche (unless you have oodles of money). A previously loved Porsche is still a great track weapon that will provide many years of fun, learning, and moding.
I'm not that surprised by this result. The differences between these cars and successive Porsche generations are really much much smaller than we expect. On the track, it often boils down to driver experience. A Cayman S at our autocross events regularly posts times that rival those of the Carrera S and GT3s. The differences between 997 and 996 are really negligible in terms of numbers unless you are Walter Rohl.
The great news here is that those who cannot afford the latest and greatest can still get absolutely terrific cars and driving experiences.
Also, if you really like going to the track, it seems silly to me to do so with your brand new Porsche (unless you have oodles of money). A previously loved Porsche is still a great track weapon that will provide many years of fun, learning, and moding.
Sep 30, 2008 5:32:03 PM
- vincesf
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Re: 5th gear: boxster RS60 vs 996 c2 from 1997
To me the ultimate car is a car you can take to the track, yet is a street car as well. Most of these cars are incredible on the track and barely suitable for the street. Porsche seems to have found a very good balance between the two. Personally I would never track my 987S, but it's nice to know it may do well even against some hardtop favorites.
vincesf
vincesf
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