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Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Turbo)
THanks for that Kreso. Sure even you have to admit that the GT-R's performance in this blows everything away. WIth the exception of the Viper which is a full on track car and runs on cup tyres, the GT-R has the best performance. It even rides better than the R8! Yeah yeah I know, it's not the Euro version. But I think that excuse is truly getting very old now. How different is the Euro version going to be compared to the UK, US and Japan versions that have all been tested now?
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Turbo)
Quote:
WAY said:
THanks for that Kreso. Sure even you have to admit that the GT-R's performance in this blows everything away. WIth the exception of the Viper which is a full on track car and runs on cup tyres, the GT-R has the best performance. It even rides better than the R8! Yeah yeah I know, it's not the Euro version. But I think that excuse is truly getting very old now. How different is the Euro version going to be compared to the UK, US and Japan versions that have all been tested now?
EU specs revised suspension and ECU for lower CO2 emissions... Since GT-R is delayed twice already for EU market I hope that EU spec car will be as fast as Suzuki test mule. Otherwise...
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
KresoF1 said:Quote:
WAY said:
THanks for that Kreso. Sure even you have to admit that the GT-R's performance in this blows everything away. WIth the exception of the Viper which is a full on track car and runs on cup tyres, the GT-R has the best performance. It even rides better than the R8! Yeah yeah I know, it's not the Euro version. But I think that excuse is truly getting very old now. How different is the Euro version going to be compared to the UK, US and Japan versions that have all been tested now?
EU specs revised suspension and ECU for lower CO2 emissions... Since GT-R is delayed twice already for EU market I hope that EU spec car will be as fast as Suzuki test mule. Otherwise...
BTW, on the SportAuto web site (GTR driving report) Nissan is quoted with "the GTR does the NBR NS in slightly above 7.30"... Nothing about 7.29 any more
I am really curious wether the GTR will achieve a 7.40 in the SportAuto Supertest at all.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
There is already a significant body of data proving the GTR's dominance on many tracks and backroads that continues to grow every week.
By the time the SA supertest appears it will have little impact on the way the GTR is viewed by the majority of car enthusiasts. The hundreds of other tests, track times and comparisons will have already established the GTR as the new benchmark.
By the time the SA supertest appears it will have little impact on the way the GTR is viewed by the majority of car enthusiasts. The hundreds of other tests, track times and comparisons will have already established the GTR as the new benchmark.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Well... I do not agree with you.
Why? EU specs GT-R needs to confirm 7.29min time or...
Personally, I would be satisfied if Horst achive 7.35min or even 7.40min but, if his time will be above 7.40min...
Just remember Quattroruote test-Alain Prost was faster on the track in GT2, LP560-4 and Scud then in GT-R... In fact difference was not that small...
Why? EU specs GT-R needs to confirm 7.29min time or...
Personally, I would be satisfied if Horst achive 7.35min or even 7.40min but, if his time will be above 7.40min...
Just remember Quattroruote test-Alain Prost was faster on the track in GT2, LP560-4 and Scud then in GT-R... In fact difference was not that small...
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Second part:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/perfo...ting/index.html
Just look who is subjective winner... And who is just fifth in that same ranking...
http://www.motortrend.com/features/perfo...ting/index.html
Just look who is subjective winner... And who is just fifth in that same ranking...
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
And check the GTR vs R8 lap times: The GTR is significantly faster than the R8, and the 997 Turbo on all tracks in all tests.
http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php?page_id=compare&car1=4717b80e35715&car2=458d5e1096b36
http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php?page_id=compare&car1=4717b80e35715&car2=458d5e1096b36
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Unless you are racing with these cars and no one will race them because they are road cars half a second here or there is not important IMO. What I value more is the subjective ranking of cars because this is closer to what the road driver will be able to realise and a better indication of the pleasure he will derive from driving his car.
The GT-R was weak in this area. I quote the magazine:
"While it predominately understeers slightly, it can easily be provoked into snap oversteer. That was fun, but the GT-R is violent when it breaks loose; the R8, in contrast, drifts sweetly. The "R" mode really isn't a race mode-there's still a lot of stability control working, which is fine for the average guy but frustrating for me as a race driver. And before you turn stability control completely off, boy, you'd better have a lot of car-control clinics under your belt. The R8 is much more refined, a muscular dancer. The GT-R is a wrestler."
Very graphically the athletic dancer vs. the sumo fighter! Which one would you choose?
As regards the Porsche it was ranked 4th which is not bad being the oldest car compared to those above it. IMO with DI (+30HP atleast), PDK and sorted PTM the FL turbo will end all this japanese hype!
In the meantime hail the new king, the Audi R8!
The GT-R was weak in this area. I quote the magazine:
"While it predominately understeers slightly, it can easily be provoked into snap oversteer. That was fun, but the GT-R is violent when it breaks loose; the R8, in contrast, drifts sweetly. The "R" mode really isn't a race mode-there's still a lot of stability control working, which is fine for the average guy but frustrating for me as a race driver. And before you turn stability control completely off, boy, you'd better have a lot of car-control clinics under your belt. The R8 is much more refined, a muscular dancer. The GT-R is a wrestler."
Very graphically the athletic dancer vs. the sumo fighter! Which one would you choose?
As regards the Porsche it was ranked 4th which is not bad being the oldest car compared to those above it. IMO with DI (+30HP atleast), PDK and sorted PTM the FL turbo will end all this japanese hype!
In the meantime hail the new king, the Audi R8!
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
AUM said:
Subjective opinions are just that. Everybody has them.
The best objective measure of sports cars is lap times - on a variety of tracks and with a variety of professional drivers - regardless of whether you track your car or not.
These are road cars remember, and sacrifising 0.x of a second for better feel, composure, agility and refinement is worth it, in the opinion of most car buyers.
Moreover, in the case in point here, the R8 has a sense of occasion and an immaculate finish in and out that any japanese car cannot approach.
The athletic dancer vs. the sumo wrestler analogy says it all.
If these cars were produced for a race series unmodified as they are, then someone might win the race with a GT-R. But if that was the purpose the other cars would be have been made differently.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
reginos said:Quote:
AUM said:
Subjective opinions are just that. Everybody has them.
The best objective measure of sports cars is lap times - on a variety of tracks and with a variety of professional drivers - regardless of whether you track your car or not.
These are road cars remember, and sacrifising 0.x of a second for better feel and composure is worth it, in the opinion of most car buyers.
Also in the case in point here the R8 has a sense of occasion and an immaculate finish in and out that any japanese car cannot approach.
The athletic dancer vs. the sumo wrestler analogy says it all.
If these cars were produced for a race series unmodified as they are, then someone might win the race with a GT-R. But if that was the purpose the other cars would be made differently.
At twice the price perhaps the Audi should offer this level of difference
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Well... I do not agree with you.
Why? EU specs GT-R needs to confirm 7.29min time or...
Personally, I would be satisfied if Horst achive 7.35min or even 7.40min but, if his time will be above 7.40min...
Just remember Quattroruote test-Alain Prost was faster on the track in GT2, LP560-4 and Scud then in GT-R... In fact difference was not that small...
Indeed the difference wasn't small but I'm pretty sure that
if the GT-R had the same tires as the others,the difference would disappear (if we ignore the huge price difference of course).
An American magazine tested the same cars on several tracks and the GT-R finished 3rd overall just behind the Viper ACR and LP560 and in front of the GT2.Not bad for the base model.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
Nidge said:Quote:
reginos said:Quote:
AUM said:
Subjective opinions are just that. Everybody has them.
The best objective measure of sports cars is lap times - on a variety of tracks and with a variety of professional drivers - regardless of whether you track your car or not.
These are road cars remember, and sacrifising 0.x of a second for better feel and composure is worth it, in the opinion of most car buyers.
Also in the case in point here the R8 has a sense of occasion and an immaculate finish in and out that any japanese car cannot approach.
The athletic dancer vs. the sumo wrestler analogy says it all.
If these cars were produced for a race series unmodified as they are, then someone might win the race with a GT-R. But if that was the purpose the other cars would be made differently.
At twice the price perhaps the Audi should offer this level of difference
The GT-R is at that low price because Nissan wouldn't be able to sell a single car at a "german" price level. I have a feeling that this car is heavily subsidised from the Nissan marketing and advertising budget. A further proof is that the higher performance version, V-spec or something, is going to sell at a much higher price and nearer the realistic production cost level.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
The GTR has raised the bar for all performance cars. It is very close in lap times to the fastest production cars made today. If, however, you take price and practicality into account the the GTR is without rival. It sits alone at the top of the ladder far above whatever is in second place.
But there are other areas such as brand image and prestige where the GTR can never compete with its European rivals. And it is too big and too heavy for my taste.
But there are other areas such as brand image and prestige where the GTR can never compete with its European rivals. And it is too big and too heavy for my taste.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
AUM said:
The GTR has raised the bar for all performance cars. It is very close in lap times to the fastest production cars made today. If, however, you take price and practicality into account the the GTR is without rival. It sits alone at the top of the ladder far above whatever is in second place.
But there are other areas such as brand image and prestige where the GTR can never compete with its European rivals. And it is too big and too heavy for my taste.
The price also is fictitious because it is subsidised. If it was sold at the normal price no one would give it a second look in spite of its slightly superior performance on tracks.
Ok if someone is a bargain-chaser then the GT-R is the car for this person. But at this automotive level there are other important attributes that count and that's where the subjective rating of the Motor Trend magazine comes in.
I don't even mention class and prestige which the GT-R has none.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
AUM said:
BTW 20 seconds at 165 km/h average speed on the Ring is a 923 meters margin. Hardly slight.
I live near the Ring and track there frequently. Lap times are important to me and to all authentic sports car enthusiasts.
A 20sec gap is huge if you build a racing car. It would also be important for road cars, if the other attributes of the comparative cars were equal.
However, 99% of sport car drivers would be willing to forgo this theoretical (to them) race track advantage in order to get the on-the-road characteristics that Motor Trend uses to arrive at its "subjective ranking".
I have to concede though, that if the sole purpose of someone's car was running at the NBR and this person was repeatedly competing against others for the best time, then the only criterium would be the Ring time where every 1/10 sec counts.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
AUM said:
BTW 20 seconds at 165 km/h average speed on the Ring is a 923 meters margin. Hardly slight.
I live near the Ring and track there frequently. Lap times are important to me and to all authentic sports car enthusiasts.
AUM, you are comparing Nissan's factory time to Porsche's Sport Auto time. Hardly fair. Take Porsche's 7:40 for comparison and don't forget that Nissan now claims that the GT-R will do the Ring at slightly over 7:30. Less than 10 seconds now, not 20 as everyone here says.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
AUM said:
BTW 20 seconds at 165 km/h average speed on the Ring is a 923 meters margin. Hardly slight.
I live near the Ring and track there frequently. Lap times are important to me and to all authentic sports car enthusiasts.
AUM, you are comparing Nissan's factory time to Porsche's Sport Auto time. Hardly fair. Take Porsche's 7:40 for comparison and don't forget that Nissan now claims that the GT-R will do the Ring at slightly over 7:30. Less than 10 seconds now, not 20 as everyone here says.
20 secs is the difference compared to the Sport Auto time of 7:50 for the Carrera S PDK (rear wheel drive,80% of the Nissan official power) with Sportreifen.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
reginos said:Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
AUM said:
BTW 20 seconds at 165 km/h average speed on the Ring is a 923 meters margin. Hardly slight.
I live near the Ring and track there frequently. Lap times are important to me and to all authentic sports car enthusiasts.
AUM, you are comparing Nissan's factory time to Porsche's Sport Auto time. Hardly fair. Take Porsche's 7:40 for comparison and don't forget that Nissan now claims that the GT-R will do the Ring at slightly over 7:30. Less than 10 seconds now, not 20 as everyone here says.
20 secs is the difference compared to the Sport Auto time of 7:50 for the Carrera S PDK (rear wheel drive,80% of the Nissan official power) with Sportreifen.
Oh, my bad. Still, I am standing by my statement. Factory time vs. Sport Auto time.
Aug 28, 2008 2:08:26 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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- Reply to: reginos
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
reginos said:Quote:
AUM said:
BTW 20 seconds at 165 km/h average speed on the Ring is a 923 meters margin. Hardly slight.
I live near the Ring and track there frequently. Lap times are important to me and to all authentic sports car enthusiasts.
A 20sec gap is huge if you build a racing car. It would also be important for road cars, if the other attributes of the comparative cars were equal.
However, 99% of sport car drivers would be willing to forgo this theoretical (to them) race track advantage in order to get the on-the-road characteristics that Motor Trend uses to arrive at its "subjective ranking".
I have to concede though, that if the sole purpose of someone's car was running at the NBR and this person was repeatedly competing against others for the best time, then the only criterium would be the Ring time where every 1/10 sec counts.
Well said - if one really wants to "compete" on the track he should join one of the race series (RCN, VLN)
We'll see how many GT-Rs in race trim will smoke the RSR's
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
Crash said:
AUM, you are comparing Nissan's factory time to Porsche's Sport Auto time. Hardly fair. Take Porsche's 7:40 for comparison and don't forget that Nissan now claims that the GT-R will do the Ring at slightly over 7:30. Less than 10 seconds now, not 20 as everyone here says.
The "slightly above 7:30" is wrong.It's 7:29.Nissan hasn't claimed anything else.
Sport Auto does that kind of mistakes pretty often.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
reginos said:
The price also is fictitious because it is subsidised. If it was sold at the normal price no one would give it a second look in spite of its slightly superior performance on tracks.
You have no prove for that. Many people were saying the same thing about the Corvette. It's simply not true.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
AUM said:
There is already a significant body of data proving the GTR's dominance on many tracks and backroads that continues to grow every week.
By the time the SA supertest appears it will have little impact on the way the GTR is viewed by the majority of car enthusiasts. The hundreds of other tests, track times and comparisons will have already established the GTR as the new benchmark.
I don't agree. The existing tests are not very significant. The Supertest will be of major importance in evaluation the GTR.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
Walter said:Quote:
Crash said:
AUM, you are comparing Nissan's factory time to Porsche's Sport Auto time. Hardly fair. Take Porsche's 7:40 for comparison and don't forget that Nissan now claims that the GT-R will do the Ring at slightly over 7:30. Less than 10 seconds now, not 20 as everyone here says.
The "slightly above 7:30" is wrong.It's 7:29.Nissan hasn't claimed anything else.
Sport Auto does that kind of mistakes pretty often.
Incorrect. It has been stated a few years ago. Nissan claim "slightly above 7:30" now, not a whisper about 7:29 anymore. By the way, the car that ran 7:29 wasn't stock spec, in spite of what Nissan says. This has all been discussed before.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
Crash said:
Incorrect. It has been stated a few years ago. Nissan claim "slightly above 7:30" now, not a whisper about 7:29 anymore. By the way, the car that ran 7:29 wasn't stock spec, in spite of what Nissan says. This has all been discussed before.
Where? And what makes you think that the car wasn't stock?
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
Walter said:Quote:
Crash said:
Incorrect. It has been stated a few years ago. Nissan claim "slightly above 7:30" now, not a whisper about 7:29 anymore. By the way, the car that ran 7:29 wasn't stock spec, in spite of what Nissan says. This has all been discussed before.
Where? And what makes you think that the car wasn't stock?
There have been numerous threads about it and I have in fact forgotten where it was explained, but the car was definitely lighter than stock and its suspension was also tuned differently. No idea about the power, since we have no way of proving how many horsepower the car had. Suffice to say, it's probably the best chassis currently available, but I have a hard time believing it's that good.
Re: Motortrend big handling test(GT-R, R8, 997 Tur
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
AUM said:
There is already a significant body of data proving the GTR's dominance on many tracks and backroads that continues to grow every week.
By the time the SA supertest appears it will have little impact on the way the GTR is viewed by the majority of car enthusiasts. The hundreds of other tests, track times and comparisons will have already established the GTR as the new benchmark.
I don't agree. The existing tests are not very significant. The Supertest will be of major importance in evaluation the GTR.
I agree that the SA supertest is very important. But this is a minority opinion. And it is unreasonable to discount all other tests.
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