Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily? - Page1

Aug 24, 2008 5:37:08 PM

GreggT: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002

PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

I've heard some comments that PASM Sport (20mm, P17 option in NA) is possibly more firm a suspension than some may enjoy, even in the 'Normal' setting, on the 19s.
Anyone else heard anything?
I am unfamiliar with current PASM ... does it have an 'Off' position as well as 'Normal' & 'Sport'?

Reason for my questions......spec'ing a C4sCab and my previous plan was simply to add Damptronics to the Standard PASM (to achieve desired ride height, rake, corner bal)......but might consider PASM Sport (as a simple, no fuss alternative) .. but would be disapointed if the result was a bit too harsh a ride for a daily that will never be tracked. And I mean 'too harsh' even when set to 'Norm' or 'Off'.
Any opins or thoughts welcome....TIA.

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Aug 24, 2008 8:03:29 PM

BangoO: Pilot; Loc: France , France; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: GreggT

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Have a look here:
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...true#Post467726

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Aug 24, 2008 8:13:22 PM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: BangoO

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Let me say that I think that PASM sucks.

The normal mode is terrific for a daily drive, and it still works very very well ont eh track. Many who track their cars regularly actually prefer normal mode unless the track is absolutely smooth and without undulations and bumps. Of course, even then, you're always going to be going over bumps when you clip the apex and go over the curb, so really, normal mode is a pretty good all purpose suspension for a car that's mainly a daily driver even if some track work is planned.

The reason PASM sport (and I should say that I can't make any comments about sport PASM) sucks is because it just seems to make the car bounce and oscillate ridiculously over road imperfections. It's not that its too stiff - it isn't at all - it just bounces all over the place. The ability of the beautiful 997 chassis to soak up road imperfections and maintain terrific wheel/road contact is lost with PASM sport. There were many reports when PASM was introduced of W. Rohl and pthers getting better N'ring lap times in normal mode for this exact reason. Traction is better in normal mode because of less bounce.

I don't know what sport PASM is going to be like, but my sense is that the bounce/oscillation is an inherent problem for this system of adjustable suspension.

On another note: lowering springs have been associated with premature PASM shock failures, so if you want to modify your springs, you should be aware of that.

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Aug 25, 2008 1:26:57 AM

GreggT: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: BangoO

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
BangoO said:
Have a look here:
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...true#Post467726

Thanx...I recall that post....I think he's saying that new PASM Sport (in normal setting) feels a bit like past reg PASM in Sport mode.
But this is the only 1st person account I recall....and by his on admission it may not be 100% credible because of the conditions the day he drove.

Silver....thanks for comments & I understand what you are saying.
Per a spring change-out, agree & that's something I would not do. As I understand it, the upside of adding Bilstein Damptronics (to standard PASM) is you still have use of the PASM and it's 2 setting.
The Damptronic mod is a full coil-over.

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Aug 25, 2008 7:28:21 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14174, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: GreggT

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Are you sure you can spec a cab with the -20mm Pasm Sport suspension ? You could not on the 997.1 cab.
If you are not in a hurry , I will give you my impressions when I get mine, beginning of october.

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Aug 25, 2008 7:30:33 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14174, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
Let me say that I think that PASM sucks.

The normal mode is terrific for a daily drive, and it still works very very well ont eh track. Many who track their cars regularly actually prefer normal mode unless the track is absolutely smooth and without undulations and bumps. Of course, even then, you're always going to be going over bumps when you clip the apex and go over the curb, so really, normal mode is a pretty good all purpose suspension for a car that's mainly a daily driver even if some track work is planned.

The reason PASM sport (and I should say that I can't make any comments about sport PASM) sucks is because it just seems to make the car bounce and oscillate ridiculously over road imperfections. It's not that its too stiff - it isn't at all - it just bounces all over the place. The ability of the beautiful 997 chassis to soak up road imperfections and maintain terrific wheel/road contact is lost with PASM sport. There were many reports when PASM was introduced of W. Rohl and pthers getting better N'ring lap times in normal mode for this exact reason. Traction is better in normal mode because of less bounce.

I don't know what sport PASM is going to be like, but my sense is that the bounce/oscillation is an inherent problem for this system of adjustable suspension.

On another note: lowering springs have been associated with premature PASM shock failures, so if you want to modify your springs, you should be aware of that.

That was the case with the 997.1, but PASM has been improved a lot . If you have driven the GT3 you know how it can feel..there is not much complaint about that setting. On the 997.2, sport suspension ( PASM -20mm ) should be very similar.

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Aug 25, 2008 8:36:02 AM

mex99: Pilot; Loc: UK; Posts: 335, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 28, 2008; Reply to: Gnil

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

I get my C2S with PASM Sport -20mm and LSD in a week - expecting perfection - will let you knpw!

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Aug 25, 2008 10:24:05 AM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: GreggT

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

S-PASM certainly provides a much harsher ride than PASM. S-PASM makes sense if you regularly track the car but most recent comments stated that it only provides an incremental advantage over the regular version. I would have a hard time justifying this on a daily driver since sport mode on regular PASM seems to be much improved over the previous iteration. What I'd be curious to know, is the superior steering feel in the 997.1's sport suspension retained in the new car?

That said, I also have my doubts that it can be ordered on the convertible.

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Aug 25, 2008 12:26:49 PM

GreggT: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
Ferdie said:

That said, I also have my doubts that it can be ordered on the convertible.

Correct.....initially it was not available.
I should probably clarify...I'm looking more for ride-comfort info. Basically how 'Normal' or 'Off' (on Sport PASM) compares to anything.
Simply put, the 20mm is more what I am after (vs my re-doing the suspension on delivery).
I enjoys a firm ride more than most.....but this car is a mainly for the wife.....I'm fortunate to have other cars set up differently.

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Aug 25, 2008 12:43:23 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: GreggT

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Sport PASM CAN NOT be ordered for Cabrio and Targa versions of 997.2.

Check out with your dealer and factory directly...

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Aug 25, 2008 1:02:29 PM

GreggT: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Sport PASM CAN NOT be ordered for Cabrio and Targa versions of 997.2.

Check out with your dealer and factory directly...

I have.

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Aug 25, 2008 1:13:18 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: GreggT

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
GreggT said:
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Sport PASM CAN NOT be ordered for Cabrio and Targa versions of 997.2.

Check out with your dealer and factory directly...

I have.

I don't know about other countries, but SPASM can not be ordered on the Cab in the states. LSD can, however.

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Aug 25, 2008 1:18:31 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
Ferdie said:
S-PASM certainly provides a much harsher ride than PASM. S-PASM makes sense if you regularly track the car but most recent comments stated that it only provides an incremental advantage over the regular version. I would have a hard time justifying this on a daily driver since sport mode on regular PASM seems to be much improved over the previous iteration. What I'd be curious to know, is the superior steering feel in the 997.1's sport suspension retained in the new car?

That said, I also have my doubts that it can be ordered on the convertible.

I guess that depends on what you consider too stiff. I recently, took out a 997 GT3 for an extensive test drive and, although definately stiff, I prefered over my previous C2S. I definately prefered it over my turbo.

Not the one should buy a C2S on looks alone, but that modest 10mm drop on the S, adds the bit of visual aggressivenees that I prefer.

Consider Carlos' review of SPASM before considering it a must have or not. Although, he prefers the 997.1 variety, I was believe he would go with the 997.2 version, if it was a choice between that or the standard feature.

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Aug 25, 2008 1:46:43 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: GreggT

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
GreggT said:
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Sport PASM CAN NOT be ordered for Cabrio and Targa versions of 997.2.

Check out with your dealer and factory directly...

I have.

...and you dealer told you that it is possible to order code 030(for 4S models) Sport PASM for Cabrio?

Well, your sales man needs to be fired ASAP...

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Aug 25, 2008 1:57:59 PM

GreggT: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: devo

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

devo......sorry but where is Carlos' comments?
10mm would not get it for me. As you know, all the U.S. bound cars have the agrarian, off-road ride height. I normally have parts waiting on delivery to address, along with lower offset wheels, and other. I have no problem admiting to be anal on this (and a few other things)

.

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Aug 25, 2008 2:05:09 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: GreggT

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
GreggT said:
devo......sorry but where is Carlos' comments?
10mm would not get it for me. As you know, all the U.S. bound cars have the agrarian, off-road ride height. I normally have parts waiting on delivery to address, along with lower offset wheels, and other. I have no problem admiting to be anal on this (and a few other things) .

Check out the Road Test Impressions. It's the very first thread.

BTW, being anal about these cars, is something to be proud of

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Aug 25, 2008 2:09:31 PM

GreggT: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Quote:
GreggT said:
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Sport PASM CAN NOT be ordered for Cabrio and Targa versions of 997.2.

Check out with your dealer and factory directly...

I have.

...and you dealer told you that it is possible to order code 030(for 4S models) Sport PASM for Cabrio?

Well, your sales man needs to be fired ASAP...

Kesno,
What inside info do you have that AG will continue to be totally inflexible on this?
Yes, I have followed the press and all spec releases....and am very much aware of the party line.
Also realize that some of us are able to have (closer)inside info.....please share if you could.
Thanks in advance.

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Aug 25, 2008 3:45:47 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: GreggT

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Gregg,

Chassis on Cabrio(and Targa) models is not stiff enough for Sport PASM suspension. So, you can not order it.

If Sport PASM is your key feature then you will have to order either 997.2 Carrera S or Carrera 4S in Coupe form...

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Aug 25, 2008 4:06:07 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

The only reason I'm happy to have PASM is when passing other cars on narrow roads fast; there's a feeling of greater stability. Other than that, for public road use, IM_H_O it's a waste of time.

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Aug 25, 2008 5:15:23 PM

GreggT: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Gregg,

Chassis on Cabrio(and Targa) models is not stiff enough for Sport PASM suspension. So, you can not order it.

If Sport PASM is your key feature then you will have to order either 997.2 Carrera S or Carrera 4S in Coupe form...

Interesting.
If that was the initial rational for leaving Cab and Targa out of the SportPASM program, then it speaks volumes about (at least the "Sport" setting) on SportPASM ......Option Code P17 on this side of the pond.
In other words....it must be brutally tight, if structural considerations actually came into consideration.....at least in their preliminary tests.

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Aug 25, 2008 5:32:34 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: GreggT

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

That is indeed the reason. Check out the Excellence article about the 997.2. The lack of sport suspension on the 997 convertible is a logical consequence. If you like to see your car's capabilities further improved I would order the LSD from the factory and revised suspension from a 3rd party manufacturer like Bilstein. In terms of performance I doubt that you will achieve significant improvements over the OEM suspension without sacrificing straight line stability or tire wear, if you are into the looks it would be the only way to go. I would clearly avoid installing the S-PASM system on the convertible!

Quote:
Excellence:
I expected a difference in the handling in a similarly equipped Carrera Cabriolet, maybe with less focus due to the open top. What blew me away was how nice the Cabrio was to drive in all conditions, especially on bumpy roads. Cowl shake is absent but, with the same suspension, the slightly less rigid chassis seemed to soak up some of the bumps that made the coupe feel nervous in the Sport mode. It was a bit easier to accurately place the car on inferior surfaces. In both PASM-equipped 997s, I found myself frequently playing with the buttons to adjust the car to road conditions.

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Aug 25, 2008 5:41:30 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: GreggT

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
GreggT said:
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Gregg,

Chassis on Cabrio(and Targa) models is not stiff enough for Sport PASM suspension. So, you can not order it.

If Sport PASM is your key feature then you will have to order either 997.2 Carrera S or Carrera 4S in Coupe form...

Interesting.
If that was the initial rational for leaving Cab and Targa out of the SportPASM program, then it speaks volumes about (at least the "Sport" setting) on SportPASM ......Option Code P17 on this side of the pond.
In other words....it must be brutally tight, if structural considerations actually came into consideration.....at least in their preliminary tests.

This is nothing new. Even the M030 sport suspension on the 996 was not available on the Cabs and it wasn't that firm a ride.

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Aug 25, 2008 6:29:59 PM

GreggT: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
Ferdie said:
That is indeed the reason. Check out the Excellence article about the 997.2. The lack of sport suspension on the 997 convertible is a logical consequence. If you like to see your car's capabilities further improved I would order the LSD from the factory and revised suspension from a 3rd party manufacturer like Bilstein. In terms of performance I doubt that you will achieve significant improvements over the OEM suspension without sacrificing straight line stability or tire wear, if you are into the looks it would be the only way to go. I would clearly avoid installing the S-PASM system on the convertible!

LSD is included on all '4s',
Yes 'looks' is what I am in to.
Thanks

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Aug 25, 2008 6:45:53 PM

GreggT: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

This is nothing new. Even the M030 sport suspension on the 996 was not available on the Cabs and it wasn't that firm a ride.

MO30 is definately not 'firm'.

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Aug 25, 2008 8:24:28 PM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: GreggT

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

My guess is that the Cabrio and Targa roofs start to rattle/squeak+/-leak with stiffer suspensions.

I had a 996 Targa and I loved it but I had to put up with incessant squeaks and rattles from the roof. I had to take it into the dealer fairly often for a full adjustment and lubrication which always improved but never completely remedied the situation. I drove a 2 year old summer driven 986S once and it rattled with the roof up too. There are just too many moving parts that are stressed repeatedly, and more so with a stiffer suspension.

Cabrio's and Targa's are by their nature, more GT cars anyways.

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Aug 26, 2008 8:16:32 AM

cdixon: Senior; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 680, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 27, 2007; Reply to: GreggT

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

I have had my FL car with sports PASM for a month and 1000 miles now. It works fine as a daily drive for me

The first 300 miles took a bit of getting use to, but i love it now. You do have to watch out for the ground clearance over road humps etc...

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Aug 26, 2008 7:43:07 PM

911freak: Newbie; Loc: Los Angeles, CA; Posts: 48, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2008; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
Let me say that I think that PASM sucks.

The normal mode is terrific for a daily drive, and it still works very very well ont eh track. Many who track their cars regularly actually prefer normal mode unless the track is absolutely smooth and without undulations and bumps. Of course, even then, you're always going to be going over bumps when you clip the apex and go over the curb, so really, normal mode is a pretty good all purpose suspension for a car that's mainly a daily driver even if some track work is planned.

The reason PASM sport (and I should say that I can't make any comments about sport PASM) sucks is because it just seems to make the car bounce and oscillate ridiculously over road imperfections. It's not that its too stiff - it isn't at all - it just bounces all over the place. The ability of the beautiful 997 chassis to soak up road imperfections and maintain terrific wheel/road contact is lost with PASM sport. There were many reports when PASM was introduced of W. Rohl and pthers getting better N'ring lap times in normal mode for this exact reason. Traction is better in normal mode because of less bounce.

I don't know what sport PASM is going to be like, but my sense is that the bounce/oscillation is an inherent problem for this system of adjustable suspension.

On another note: lowering springs have been associated with premature PASM shock failures, so if you want to modify your springs, you should be aware of that.

My car has regular PASM, not the new 20mm. I agree, the car feels great on the normal setting, soaking up bumps and road imperfections like a good suspension should, but remaining firm enough to support the car and keep it level during hard cornering or braking. On the sport setting however, the car gets firmer but also moves around and oscillates way too much over bumps. One of my favorite roads has a lot of fast, banked sweepers on it that are good for around 70 or 80 MPH, the car feels better here on the normal mode rather than the sport mode, it just feels much more planted.

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Aug 27, 2008 1:02:32 AM

GreggT: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: cdixon

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
cdixon said:
I have had my FL car with sports PASM for a month and 1000 miles now. It works fine as a daily drive for me

The first 300 miles took a bit of getting use to, but i love it now. You do have to watch out for the ground clearance over road humps etc...

cdixon.......two questions.......1.)can I assume you're comments describe 'Normal mode'....and 2.) is there an 'Off' position, or are the choices simply Norm & Sport?

Thanks in advance

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Aug 27, 2008 1:11:20 AM

GreggT: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: 911freak

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
911freak said:
[quoteMy car has regular PASM, not the new 20mm. I agree, the car feels great on the normal setting, soaking up bumps and road imperfections like a good suspension should, but remaining firm enough to support the car and keep it level during hard cornering or braking. On the sport setting however, the car gets firmer but also moves around and oscillates way too much over bumps. One of my favorite roads has a lot of fast, banked sweepers on it that are good for around 70 or 80 MPH, the car feels better here on the normal mode rather than the sport mode, it just feels much more planted.

Wow interesting.
The car feels more planted in the Normal mode than the Sport mode....(where it 'ocillates' and moves around more than you'd like).
Hey maybe they wired that switch backwards.

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Aug 27, 2008 1:54:56 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: GreggT

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Quote:
GreggT said:
Quote:
911freak said:
[quoteMy car has regular PASM, not the new 20mm. I agree, the car feels great on the normal setting, soaking up bumps and road imperfections like a good suspension should, but remaining firm enough to support the car and keep it level during hard cornering or braking. On the sport setting however, the car gets firmer but also moves around and oscillates way too much over bumps. One of my favorite roads has a lot of fast, banked sweepers on it that are good for around 70 or 80 MPH, the car feels better here on the normal mode rather than the sport mode, it just feels much more planted.

Wow interesting.
The car feels more planted in the Normal mode than the Sport mode....(where it 'ocillates' and moves around more than you'd like).
Hey maybe they wired that switch backwards.

Yes. Stiff suspensions only work well in smooth surfaces. On regular (read lousy) surfaces the suspension needs to soak up the bumps to hold the chassis in a stable way.

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PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

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Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

Re: PASM Sport (20mm) too harsh for a daily?

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