Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect........... - Page1

Aug 10, 2008 9:30:58 AM

C2Nerves: Junior; Loc: Beirut, Lebanon , Lebanon; Posts: 131, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2006; Reply to: Grant

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

Thank you Misha011. The site was very informative indeed.
What is left to clarify is the following:
Does the PSM threshold get affected when you add option 220?
I guess LSD with porsches is tuned for cornering and not getting out of an ice/mud slip situation. Does anyone have any experience on how your porsche will corner with LSD? Will you still be able to spin the back but with better control? I personally do not like the way PSM works (engine cut off) so i prefer to keep it off.

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Aug 11, 2008 4:10:47 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: C2Nerves

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

Quote:
C2Nerves said:
Thank you Misha011. The site was very informative indeed.
What is left to clarify is the following:
Does the PSM threshold get affected when you add option 220?
I guess LSD with porsches is tuned for cornering and not getting out of an ice/mud slip situation. Does anyone have any experience on how your porsche will corner with LSD? Will you still be able to spin the back but with better control? I personally do not like the way PSM works (engine cut off) so i prefer to keep it off.

Yes, drifting is still possible with LSD and it's much more controlled too.

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Aug 11, 2008 9:25:21 PM

C2Nerves: Junior; Loc: Beirut, Lebanon , Lebanon; Posts: 131, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2006; Reply to: Grant

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

Thanks Grant. I wonder why LSD is not a standard option on al carreras!!?? This seems to be the exact remedy for me.
I dont track my car, but I do care about controlled drifting.

I guess i would regret not adding it, though I just confirmed my order a few days ago.

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Aug 11, 2008 10:52:17 PM

cibergypsy: Pilot; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2006; Reply to: C2Nerves

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

Quote:
C2Nerves said:
Thank you Misha011. The site was very informative indeed.
What is left to clarify is the following:
Does the PSM threshold get affected when you add option 220?
I guess LSD with porsches is tuned for cornering and not getting out of an ice/mud slip situation. Does anyone have any experience on how your porsche will corner with LSD? Will you still be able to spin the back but with better control? I personally do not like the way PSM works (engine cut off) so i prefer to keep it off.

I don't know if this is wrong or not but Paul Frère's book states that, even when PSM is turned off, the ABD portion of PSM is still active to act as a limited slip diff if wheelspin is detected. Now, wether or not this will also cut off the engine (as I've felt when I step on the brake and the gas simultaneously) remains to be found out by me, as I have not tracked my '06 Carrera S yet.

What do you guys think about this? Is the ABD portion still engaged to act as a simulated LSD without the engine cut off or is the engine going to be cut off as needed just as when PSM is on? Can an LSD be fitted (like a Quaife for example) on a pre-FL Carrera or Carrera S with PSM???

Thanks!

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Aug 12, 2008 9:49:32 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: cibergypsy

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

Quote:
cibergypsy said:
I don't know if this is wrong or not but Paul Frère's book states that, even when PSM is turned off, the ABD portion of PSM is still active to act as a limited slip diff if wheelspin is detected. Now, wether or not this will also cut off the engine (as I've felt when I step on the brake and the gas simultaneously) remains to be found out by me, as I have not tracked my '06 Carrera S yet.

What do you guys think about this? Is the ABD portion still engaged to act as a simulated LSD without the engine cut off or is the engine going to be cut off as needed just as when PSM is on? Can an LSD be fitted (like a Quaife for example) on a pre-FL Carrera or Carrera S with PSM???

Thanks!

Hi Cybergypsy, the ABD acts by applying the ABS to each wheel independantly when it detects one spinning faster than the other one, in a way like a mech differential but the effect is less sporty and not as efficient. It does not substitute a LSD at all, even though they call it Automatic Brake Differential. Its part of PSM since the beginning of PSM, all PSM cars have it, and its always ON even if you disengage PSM.

But it does not cut off the throttle it only applies brake to the wheels "independantly". The thorttle cut off you notice when you apply the throttle and after the brakes is another system. The throttle and brakes are connected in a way that if you press on the throttle and then afterwards (whille pressing on the throttle) you press of the brakes, the throttle will be cut off for safety reasons.

However, if you do this in inverse order, you first brakes and then also apply throttle, then the throttle will not be cut off, to allow you to still hell-toe for example.

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Aug 12, 2008 10:01:42 AM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: cibergypsy

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

Quote:
cibergypsy said:
Can an LSD be fitted (like a Quaife for example) on a pre-FL Carrera or Carrera S with PSM???
Thanks!

Yes, a friend fitted a Quaife on a 997.1 S late last year and he is very happy.
Also no problems with PSM operation detected so far.

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Aug 12, 2008 1:55:34 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: reginos

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

Quote:
reginos said:
Quote:
cibergypsy said:
Can an LSD be fitted (like a Quaife for example) on a pre-FL Carrera or Carrera S with PSM???
Thanks!

Yes, a friend fitted a Quaife on a 997.1 S late last year and he is very happy.
Also no problems with PSM operation detected so far.

Correct, a Quaife will not interfere with PSM, but it also does not provide all the advantages of a real clutch-type LSD (the type Porsche uses in all of its cars with LSD).

Quaife (Torque Biasing Diff) helps on acceleration, as long as both drive wheels are firmly on the road), but a real LSD does that, also does that if one wheel is lifted, and more importantly helps tremdendously to add stability under braking and corner entry. Still would much rather have a Quaife instead of nothing, but Clutch LSD is the best (and may interfere with PSM)...

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Aug 12, 2008 2:10:42 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

Quote:
Grant said:
Clutch LSD is the best (and may interfere with PSM)...

I suppose though that factory fitted clutch LSD are set up as to work with PSM type systems?

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Aug 12, 2008 3:55:46 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: reginos

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

Quote:
reginos said:
Quote:
Grant said:
Clutch LSD is the best (and may interfere with PSM)...

I suppose though that factory fitted clutch LSD are set up as to work with PSM type systems?

Yes, the LSD locking ratios are very mild on the cars with both LSD and PSM (Carrera(S) & Turbo), but the LSD locking ratios are much more aggressive on the cars without PSM (Carrera GT, GT2, GT3).

Having aggressive LSD locking ratios makes PSM's functions less effective, since PSM relies on the ability to apply the brake to each individual wheel (to adjust yaw) and LSD causes both rear wheels to brake if either rear brake is applied.

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Aug 12, 2008 4:47:13 PM

cibergypsy: Pilot; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2006; Reply to: Grant

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
reginos said:
Quote:
Grant said:
Clutch LSD is the best (and may interfere with PSM)...

I suppose though that factory fitted clutch LSD are set up as to work with PSM type systems?

Yes, the LSD locking ratios are very mild on the cars with both LSD and PSM (Carrera(S) & Turbo), but the LSD locking ratios are much more aggressive on the cars without PSM (Carrera GT, GT2, GT3).

Having aggressive LSD locking ratios makes PSM's functions less effective, since PSM relies on the ability to apply the brake to each individual wheel (to adjust yaw) and LSD causes both rear wheels to brake if either rear brake is applied.

Grant, is this LSD with a mild locking factor to which you are referring for the 997.1 cars? I saw on Porsche's PET catalog a year ago an LSD equipped transmission for a 997.1 Carrera and another for the Carrera 4 for the US market for cars 2006 and up. It was on PET USA KATALOG. I did not buy it, even though I was getting a good deal, because the dealer could not give me a straight answer as to wether or not this is something I can put on my car. I mean, it showed right on the PET catalog for the USA but, since I was not able to select it at the time I placed the order for my car on the options list, I really want to know if it works without problems and why it isn't available at ordering time from a dealer. Could it be that this was available for 2006 and up cars right after I ordered my car? Is this an option available right now for 2006 cars and up and does someone on Rennteam has it? I'd still buy it if I can get a straight answer. The part numbers are 997.300.020.01 for a Carrera and 997.300.020.31 for a Carrera 4. Can anyone call a more competent dealer and find out? This seems like the best choice if it is possible, doesn't it?

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Aug 12, 2008 5:03:58 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: cibergypsy

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

It's a little bit tricky to add the factory (clutch-type) LSD to a 997.1 that was not specced with it (all of them in the USA).

The reason is that the LSD and -20mm suspension were packaged together in ROW and the spring and swaybar rates were specifically tuned to the LSD (to counteract the inherent understeer of the LSD). So, adding LSD without also changing suspension tuning (adding adjustable GT3 swaybars would help) may cause more understeer.

I will be interested to see if the springs and/or swaybars on the 997.2 are different for cars that spec LSD (not the Sport PASM, but just LSD option).

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Aug 19, 2008 10:57:02 PM

C2Nerves: Junior; Loc: Beirut, Lebanon , Lebanon; Posts: 131, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2006; Reply to: Grant

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

Did anyone order LSD on a his 997.2? Will the PSM still be included as standard? How does the car behave?

i guess many of us are anxious to know how this option works on a PDK fitted 997.2

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Aug 19, 2008 11:35:02 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: C2Nerves

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

Quote:
C2Nerves said:
Did anyone order LSD on a his 997.2? Will the PSM still be included as standard? How does the car behave?

i guess many of us are anxious to know how this option works on a PDK fitted 997.2

PSM should handle LSD-equipped cars better, meaning being even less intrusive. LSD is not absolutely essential for the average driver, but it is a good option to have.

LSD works just as well with manual or automatic/PDK trannies.

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Aug 20, 2008 12:13:20 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: C2Nerves

Re: w/LSD -20mm how dies it affect...........

Quote:
C2Nerves said:
Did anyone order LSD on a his 997.2? Will the PSM still be included as standard? How does the car behave?

i guess many of us are anxious to know how this option works on a PDK fitted 997.2

In Europe (and everywhere else other than N. America), LSD has been an option on the 997 since its introduction 4 years ago and has worked great with PSM.

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