Crown

Quote:
reginos said:

Quote:
STRADALE said:

Quote:
reginos said:

Quote:
STRADALE said:
[Huh? I own a car w/ paddles (F1 F430), also own a 6-speed stick so my opinion is not based on "internet forums" or
"pre-conceived ideas". That's a lot of mud slinging and accusations, how bout you besides test driving a PDK, do you have some sort of vast car collection where you have gained all this first hand ownership experiences?

I never said anything about anyone elses likes or dislikes of buttons on the steering wheel, never said anything about them being "ignorant idi0ts". My remarks were directed at the type of system, not the people who would select it. IMO button type shifters on the steering wheel suck compared to stationary paddles on the column & I'm disappointed in the direction Porsche took that's all. I guess my opinion seems to be shared by some here & it doesnt surprise me that the comments on PDK from recent tests so far have been far from favorable. But if you feel compelled to promote it, be my guest, I'll never accuse you or your opinion of being "dangerous", after all it's just people talking about their opinions on an auto-forum not some vast conspiracy against an auto maker were talking about here. Porsche will survive no matter what I say so Chill bra..

No, I don't have a vast collection of vehicles and perhaps it is one of the reasons I don't get confused between systems.

Anyway,I've tried the PDK and I enjoyed immensely in all 3 modes. each mode has its purpose very logical very Porsche.

I didn't have a problem selecting gears using the buttons and additionally flicking the stick instead of selecting via the buttons is a very handy alternative in certain driving situations.
Moreover, I haven't read any negative comments on the PDK in the auto press (European and US), just some moaning about the buttons, which amounts to a different thing from what you wrote above.


I can appreciate that some people might prefer another system for their own reasons, valid or not. However, of all the posters here who object to PDK I doubt if more than 1 or 2 and maybe none have tried the system. This is where my objection comes that people shouldn't be led to form opinions by a minority of influencers whose credentials we don't know. Unfortunately this attitude extends beyond cars and to more serious matters in life in general.

We differ on this matter but as long as we enjoy ourselves with our respective preferences that's what matters.

You could be right, perhaps that's the reason. Can I ask have you ever owned a Ferrari or other car w/ an F1 type shifter? Because that is my basis for comparison vs. shifting buttons on the steering wheel. Do you own or have you owned a Porsche? I'm just asking because when it comes to understanding someones opinions I think it helps to understand what their real life experiences are like & because you brought it up regarding what people read on the internet & "pre-conceived ideas".

Yeah I know PDK is not tip but I'm not referring to the actual tranny just thumb button shifting which is very much the same for both PDK & Tip. I can understand peoples opinions here about being upset Porsche mounted thumb shifter buttons again because they're upset w/ the feeling of shifting w/ your thumbs on a moving steering wheel which is essentially the same thing as a Tip only worse probably because you actually have to push w/ your thumb while accelerating & pull w/ your fingers while decelerating; the very OPPOSITE to what your body naturally wants to do in those circumstances.

There's been a few articles already that have been less than favorable on PDK, I was reading one this past weekend where the writer said he'd still select a stick over PDK.

That's all I was saying - There isnt a right or wrong, just personal preference but like I said I know A LOT of people that disliked the way shift buttons on the steering wheel performed, wishing Porsche would go the paddle route but so far havent really heard F1 style owners wishing that they could have thumb shifter buttons on the steering wheel. That's why I was asking above re: your experiences w/ F1 paddles just curious if you've been an owner of that type.

I've never owned a Ferrari and I am not an expert on this Italian chariot of gods. I have owned several Porsches since the 80s and I still own one but all manual. Moreover, I get the chance in the course of my interests to drive all Porsche models. My experience with paddles comes from our family VW GTI DSG a very competent cross country car with an excellent double clutch system. I've driven on occasions a friend's M3 with the SMG automated manual system and I prefer the VW double clutch much more.

When I tried PDK extensively I've had none of the problems many of you mention, like buttons/paddles , counter-intuitive press/pull blah blah blah.

Honestly, driving the car I was left wondering what was the reason for all this hostility towards this innovative
engineering tour de force.

Compared to a good Porsche manual it can be somewhat more detached and less immediate and I can see why someone might opt for manual according to his own set of parameters. Similarly a Ferrari driver can prefer nanual to F1 and this doesn't make the automated system bad.

I don't want this to carry on forever because we will end up going in circles with the same line of argumentation.

But many posters give me the impression that they have already decided that they don't like PDK without trying it ,based on rumour(and this is my objection) and try to find reasons to justify this pre(mis)conception.

Anyway, there is no end to prejudice

There is only one problem-you are die hard Porsche fan.

All car magazines said that PDK steering wheel puddles are wrong design and I agree with them... Even German magazines(AMS and AZ) claim that puddles design is not the best idea at all...

On sunday I finally get the chance to try 997.2CS with PDK. I must admit it was just two hour drive... BUT, I got the impression about PDK.

Normal mode-even worst then normal mode on VW Golf GTI, shifts to seventh gear in NO time. Throttle response like 80hp Fiat Punto and all in all only good for heavy slow traffic.

Sport mode-prettyy good with nice throttle bips at downshifts and fast/smooth upshifts. Works almost excellent in D mode. In M mode sometimes it can override your manual input and hold a gear(it happened once when I braked hard in front of the tight corner, I wanted to downshift to second but, PDK AI override and stayed in third. I wanted to use all traction for exit but, in third I was as safe as possible)...

Sport Plus mode-BMW SMGIII like mode... It use much more revs(almost above 4000rpm at all times) then Sport mode. In M mode it is sometimes jerky at upshifts(!!!) and you get a kick in rear axle. Honestly, I did not feel entirely safe with this behaviour... I can drive fast and safe with manual gearbox, extra DRAMA that PDK provide in this mode is pure moronic addition IMHO. In D mode this mode works very best.

Overall? PDK is NOT any better then BMW's M-DKG in M3. In fact not better at all IMO. Only mode that I truly like is Sport. Drive from stillstand require little bit more throttle then any manual 997... Creep mode works pretty strange-they need to learn a lot here...
PDK is definitely better then TIP! Just it is not what I expected. It remaind me more to VW DSG then to Ferrari F1 Superfast.
PDK steering wheel puddles? I got used to it but, it is big NO, NO IMHO.

Want a PDK? If you are impressed with VW DSG or BMW M-DKG or you drive both these gearboxes and your impression is positive then why NOT?

BUT, if you are manual driver... Then test drive is a MUST! PDK can be very different then you expected from Porsche marketing material.

One last thing-PDK lever on car that I drove was pretty heavy, much heavier then lever on M3 with M-DKG.

Quote:
P_Nut said:
...but I can not believe the decision Porsche took in relation to the PDK controls. why....

Well, Porsche is a cost-driven company. Changing it to a paddle system would probably result in updating too many parts. What they have now are buttons, probably the switches connect to the same connectors as they did before on the automatic gearbox. All the wiring stays the same, etc. (Just my guess though)
-Joost-

Quote:
reginos said:

Quote:
STRADALE said:

Quote:
reginos said:

Quote:
STRADALE said:
[Huh? I own a car w/ paddles (F1 F430), also own a 6-speed stick so my opinion is not based on "internet forums" or
"pre-conceived ideas". That's a lot of mud slinging and accusations, how bout you besides test driving a PDK, do you have some sort of vast car collection where you have gained all this first hand ownership experiences?

I never said anything about anyone elses likes or dislikes of buttons on the steering wheel, never said anything about them being "ignorant idi0ts". My remarks were directed at the type of system, not the people who would select it. IMO button type shifters on the steering wheel suck compared to stationary paddles on the column & I'm disappointed in the direction Porsche took that's all. I guess my opinion seems to be shared by some here & it doesnt surprise me that the comments on PDK from recent tests so far have been far from favorable. But if you feel compelled to promote it, be my guest, I'll never accuse you or your opinion of being "dangerous", after all it's just people talking about their opinions on an auto-forum not some vast conspiracy against an auto maker were talking about here. Porsche will survive no matter what I say so Chill bra..

No, I don't have a vast collection of vehicles and perhaps it is one of the reasons I don't get confused between systems.

Anyway,I've tried the PDK and I enjoyed immensely in all 3 modes. each mode has its purpose very logical very Porsche.

I didn't have a problem selecting gears using the buttons and additionally flicking the stick instead of selecting via the buttons is a very handy alternative in certain driving situations.
Moreover, I haven't read any negative comments on the PDK in the auto press (European and US), just some moaning about the buttons, which amounts to a different thing from what you wrote above.


I can appreciate that some people might prefer another system for their own reasons, valid or not. However, of all the posters here who object to PDK I doubt if more than 1 or 2 and maybe none have tried the system. This is where my objection comes that people shouldn't be led to form opinions by a minority of influencers whose credentials we don't know. Unfortunately this attitude extends beyond cars and to more serious matters in life in general.

We differ on this matter but as long as we enjoy ourselves with our respective preferences that's what matters.

You could be right, perhaps that's the reason. Can I ask have you ever owned a Ferrari or other car w/ an F1 type shifter? Because that is my basis for comparison vs. shifting buttons on the steering wheel. Do you own or have you owned a Porsche? I'm just asking because when it comes to understanding someones opinions I think it helps to understand what their real life experiences are like & because you brought it up regarding what people read on the internet & "pre-conceived ideas".

Yeah I know PDK is not tip but I'm not referring to the actual tranny just thumb button shifting which is very much the same for both PDK & Tip. I can understand peoples opinions here about being upset Porsche mounted thumb shifter buttons again because they're upset w/ the feeling of shifting w/ your thumbs on a moving steering wheel which is essentially the same thing as a Tip only worse probably because you actually have to push w/ your thumb while accelerating & pull w/ your fingers while decelerating; the very OPPOSITE to what your body naturally wants to do in those circumstances.

There's been a few articles already that have been less than favorable on PDK, I was reading one this past weekend where the writer said he'd still select a stick over PDK.

That's all I was saying - There isnt a right or wrong, just personal preference but like I said I know A LOT of people that disliked the way shift buttons on the steering wheel performed, wishing Porsche would go the paddle route but so far havent really heard F1 style owners wishing that they could have thumb shifter buttons on the steering wheel. That's why I was asking above re: your experiences w/ F1 paddles just curious if you've been an owner of that type.

I've never owned a Ferrari and I am not an expert on this Italian chariot of gods. I have owned several Porsches since the 80s and I still own one but all manual. Moreover, I get the chance in the course of my interests to drive all Porsche models. My experience with paddles comes from our family VW GTI DSG a very competent cross country car with an excellent double clutch system. I've driven on occasions a friend's M3 with the SMG automated manual system and I prefer the VW double clutch much more.

When I tried PDK extensively I've had none of the problems many of you mention, like buttons/paddles , counter-intuitive press/pull blah blah blah.

Honestly, driving the car I was left wondering what was the reason for all this hostility towards this innovative
engineering tour de force.

Compared to a good Porsche manual it can be somewhat more detached and less immediate and I can see why someone might opt for manual according to his own set of parameters. Similarly a Ferrari driver can prefer nanual to F1 and this doesn't make the automated system bad.

I don't want this to carry on forever because we will end up going in circles with the same line of argumentation.

But many posters give me the impression that they have already decided that they don't like PDK without trying it ,based on rumour(and this is my objection) and try to find reasons to justify this pre(mis)conception.

Anyway, there is no end to prejudice

I think you would understand my opinion much better if you owned a Ferrari type F1 system in the future, or at least drive one for a few days because that's the WHOLE basis for my point. Porsche must have thought this through quite a bit so I'm sure there are people like you that enjoy driving w/ thumb button shifters on the steering wheel, I'm just not one of them. Sucks for me that I dont really enjoy both types. (Tip/PDK & F1) The actual PDK can be the very best tranny in the world but because of it's shift button location on the steering wheel I will unfortunately never buy a PDK car and honestly I'm kinda disappointed. I'm not getting any younger so I had already been thinking that if I do buy the next Turbo Cab if it was similair to how my F430 shifts than I would go from the manual Turbo Cab to PDK. I would love to hear their thinking behind it, because to me it doesnt make any sense. I hate driving tip's, I just feel so un-comfortable shifting w/ my thumbs on a moving steering wheel, I look forward to driving a PDK but there's just no getting around the fact it's still the same basic thumb button shifting on a steering wheel & that's probably why you're getting people already that have been saying they wont like it which I can completely relate to. When I get in my F430 shifting just feels so much more intuitive, it's like night & day for me. Maybe you shouldnt own an F1 Ferrari, it could ruin your opinion for moving buttons shifting. Anyway,

August 2008 "car" - Well respected rag:

>>But before you've even felt the new hill-holder brakes release, you spot that Porsche seems to have done its upmost to reduce the potential enjoyment of the system by comprehensively fouling up both shift interfaces. Because as on the old tiptronic the almost universally recognized left-down, right-up paddle layout is eschewed in favor of of a push/pull system on both sides of the new and disappointingly fatter wheel. I'm sure you'd get used to it but me and the F1 grid are quite happy with the other method.

And because a push on the wheel means up, so does pushing the stick on the tunnel, when in fact it feels more natural to pull back to go up a gear, as you would in a racer with sequential transmission. Even Ford's new dual cluth box gets it right so why cant Porsche? Damn It, it's had 20 years to get the thing to market.

But why are there no shift paddles? Instead changing ratios is a confusing push/pull job instead of the more intuitive paddleshift system. Purists will still be better served by the manual. <<

Quote:
Le Chef said:
Wait until the GT3 with PDK is launched and then look for a proper paddle shifter set up to be offered to the "peasants" who drive ordinary 997.2's. You will still have to tear your hair out though with the stick +/- shift direction that's back to front for street driving. My old Audi had the same +/- setup as Porsche but my wife's old Mazda is the reverse (-/+) and is simply much, much better.

Whatever were they thinking???

That would really be a kick in the groan to offer a proper paddleshift later in the PDK introduction.

"Whatever were they thinking???"

Quote:
Joost said:

Quote:
P_Nut said:
...but I can not believe the decision Porsche took in relation to the PDK controls. why....

Well, Porsche is a cost-driven company. Changing it to a paddle system would probably result in updating too many parts. What they have now are buttons, probably the switches connect to the same connectors as they did before on the automatic gearbox. All the wiring stays the same, etc. (Just my guess though)
-Joost-

Man, I hope that wasnt the real reason, that would be an even bigger disappointment than the system itself, that they went that way because it was easier & cheaper? Huh... Maybe it's closer to the mark then I'd like to believe. Ferrari & Porsche are my 2 absolute favorite manufacturers, always have been. I dont like the feeling that I keep getting from Porsche nowadays. With their RECORD profits they should be doing more & more to make the customer excited about the product.

Quote:
KresoF1 said:

Quote:
reginos said:

Quote:
STRADALE said:

Quote:
reginos said:

Quote:
STRADALE said:
[Huh? I own a car w/ paddles (F1 F430), also own a 6-speed stick so my opinion is not based on "internet forums" or
"pre-conceived ideas". That's a lot of mud slinging and accusations, how bout you besides test driving a PDK, do you have some sort of vast car collection where you have gained all this first hand ownership experiences?

I never said anything about anyone elses likes or dislikes of buttons on the steering wheel, never said anything about them being "ignorant idi0ts". My remarks were directed at the type of system, not the people who would select it. IMO button type shifters on the steering wheel suck compared to stationary paddles on the column & I'm disappointed in the direction Porsche took that's all. I guess my opinion seems to be shared by some here & it doesnt surprise me that the comments on PDK from recent tests so far have been far from favorable. But if you feel compelled to promote it, be my guest, I'll never accuse you or your opinion of being "dangerous", after all it's just people talking about their opinions on an auto-forum not some vast conspiracy against an auto maker were talking about here. Porsche will survive no matter what I say so Chill bra..

No, I don't have a vast collection of vehicles and perhaps it is one of the reasons I don't get confused between systems.

Anyway,I've tried the PDK and I enjoyed immensely in all 3 modes. each mode has its purpose very logical very Porsche.

I didn't have a problem selecting gears using the buttons and additionally flicking the stick instead of selecting via the buttons is a very handy alternative in certain driving situations.
Moreover, I haven't read any negative comments on the PDK in the auto press (European and US), just some moaning about the buttons, which amounts to a different thing from what you wrote above.


I can appreciate that some people might prefer another system for their own reasons, valid or not. However, of all the posters here who object to PDK I doubt if more than 1 or 2 and maybe none have tried the system. This is where my objection comes that people shouldn't be led to form opinions by a minority of influencers whose credentials we don't know. Unfortunately this attitude extends beyond cars and to more serious matters in life in general.

We differ on this matter but as long as we enjoy ourselves with our respective preferences that's what matters.

You could be right, perhaps that's the reason. Can I ask have you ever owned a Ferrari or other car w/ an F1 type shifter? Because that is my basis for comparison vs. shifting buttons on the steering wheel. Do you own or have you owned a Porsche? I'm just asking because when it comes to understanding someones opinions I think it helps to understand what their real life experiences are like & because you brought it up regarding what people read on the internet & "pre-conceived ideas".

Yeah I know PDK is not tip but I'm not referring to the actual tranny just thumb button shifting which is very much the same for both PDK & Tip. I can understand peoples opinions here about being upset Porsche mounted thumb shifter buttons again because they're upset w/ the feeling of shifting w/ your thumbs on a moving steering wheel which is essentially the same thing as a Tip only worse probably because you actually have to push w/ your thumb while accelerating & pull w/ your fingers while decelerating; the very OPPOSITE to what your body naturally wants to do in those circumstances.

There's been a few articles already that have been less than favorable on PDK, I was reading one this past weekend where the writer said he'd still select a stick over PDK.

That's all I was saying - There isnt a right or wrong, just personal preference but like I said I know A LOT of people that disliked the way shift buttons on the steering wheel performed, wishing Porsche would go the paddle route but so far havent really heard F1 style owners wishing that they could have thumb shifter buttons on the steering wheel. That's why I was asking above re: your experiences w/ F1 paddles just curious if you've been an owner of that type.

I've never owned a Ferrari and I am not an expert on this Italian chariot of gods. I have owned several Porsches since the 80s and I still own one but all manual. Moreover, I get the chance in the course of my interests to drive all Porsche models. My experience with paddles comes from our family VW GTI DSG a very competent cross country car with an excellent double clutch system. I've driven on occasions a friend's M3 with the SMG automated manual system and I prefer the VW double clutch much more.

When I tried PDK extensively I've had none of the problems many of you mention, like buttons/paddles , counter-intuitive press/pull blah blah blah.

Honestly, driving the car I was left wondering what was the reason for all this hostility towards this innovative
engineering tour de force.

Compared to a good Porsche manual it can be somewhat more detached and less immediate and I can see why someone might opt for manual according to his own set of parameters. Similarly a Ferrari driver can prefer nanual to F1 and this doesn't make the automated system bad.

I don't want this to carry on forever because we will end up going in circles with the same line of argumentation.

But many posters give me the impression that they have already decided that they don't like PDK without trying it ,based on rumour(and this is my objection) and try to find reasons to justify this pre(mis)conception.

Anyway, there is no end to prejudice

There is only one problem-you are die hard Porsche fan.

All car magazines said that PDK steering wheel puddles are wrong design and I agree with them... Even German magazines(AMS and AZ) claim that puddles design is not the best idea at all...

On sunday I finally get the chance to try 997.2CS with PDK. I must admit it was just two hour drive... BUT, I got the impression about PDK.

Normal mode-even worst then normal mode on VW Golf GTI, shifts to seventh gear in NO time. Throttle response like 80hp Fiat Punto and all in all only good for heavy slow traffic.

Sport mode-prettyy good with nice throttle bips at downshifts and fast/smooth upshifts. Works almost excellent in D mode. In M mode sometimes it can override your manual input and hold a gear(it happened once when I braked hard in front of the tight corner, I wanted to downshift to second but, PDK AI override and stayed in third. I wanted to use all traction for exit but, in third I was as safe as possible)...

Sport Plus mode-BMW SMGIII like mode... It use much more revs(almost above 4000rpm at all times) then Sport mode. In M mode it is sometimes jerky at upshifts(!!!) and you get a kick in rear axle. Honestly, I did not feel entirely safe with this behaviour... I can drive fast and safe with manual gearbox, extra DRAMA that PDK provide in this mode is pure moronic addition IMHO. In D mode this mode works very best.

Overall? PDK is NOT any better then BMW's M-DKG in M3. In fact not better at all IMO. Only mode that I truly like is Sport. Drive from stillstand require little bit more throttle then any manual 997... Creep mode works pretty strange-they need to learn a lot here...
PDK is definitely better then TIP! Just it is not what I expected. It remaind me more to VW DSG then to Ferrari F1 Superfast.
PDK steering wheel puddles? I got used to it but, it is big NO, NO IMHO.

Want a PDK? If you are impressed with VW DSG or BMW M-DKG or you drive both these gearboxes and your impression is positive then why NOT?

BUT, if you are manual driver... Then test drive is a MUST! PDK can be very different then you expected from Porsche marketing material.

One last thing-PDK lever on car that I drove was pretty heavy, much heavier then lever on M3 with M-DKG.

Very interesting write-up Kreso, thanks!

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
There is only one problem-you are die hard Porsche fan.

Hehe why do you say that?

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
All car magazines said that PDK steering wheel puddles are wrong design and I agree with them... Even German magazines(AMS and AZ) claim that puddles design is not the best idea at all...

On sunday I finally get the chance to try 997.2CS with PDK. I must admit it was just two hour drive... BUT, I got the impression about PDK.

Normal mode-even worst then normal mode on VW Golf GTI, shifts to seventh gear in NO time. Throttle response like 80hp Fiat Punto and all in all only good for heavy slow traffic.

Sport mode-prettyy good with nice throttle bips at downshifts and fast/smooth upshifts. Works almost excellent in D mode. In M mode sometimes it can override your manual input and hold a gear(it happened once when I braked hard in front of the tight corner, I wanted to downshift to second but, PDK AI override and stayed in third. I wanted to use all traction for exit but, in third I was as safe as possible)...

Sport Plus mode-BMW SMGIII like mode... It use much more revs(almost above 4000rpm at all times) then Sport mode. In M mode it is sometimes jerky at upshifts(!!!) and you get a kick in rear axle. Honestly, I did not feel entirely safe with this behaviour... I can drive fast and safe with manual gearbox, extra DRAMA that PDK provide in this mode is pure moronic addition IMHO. In D mode this mode works very best.

Overall? PDK is NOT any better then BMW's M-DKG in M3. In fact not better at all IMO. Only mode that I truly like is Sport. Drive from stillstand require little bit more throttle then any manual 997... Creep mode works pretty strange-they need to learn a lot here...
PDK is definitely better then TIP! Just it is not what I expected. It remaind me more to VW DSG then to Ferrari F1 Superfast.
PDK steering wheel puddles? I got used to it but, it is big NO, NO IMHO.

Want a PDK? If you are impressed with VW DSG or BMW M-DKG or you drive both these gearboxes and your impression is positive then why NOT?

BUT, if you are manual driver... Then test drive is a MUST! PDK can be very different then you expected from Porsche marketing material.

One last thing-PDK lever on car that I drove was pretty heavy, much heavier then lever on M3 with M-DKG.

Kreso, I agree 100% with your description of PDK although my overall impressions and conclusions are from a different angle.

Myself, I liked the possibilities the 6 modes(3 modes, D or M each) give to the driver. The menu goes from Lazy driving+Economy in Normal D to Crazy Sport Plus in M.

I got the impression from my drive that with ownership and use and kilometers the driver will be able to choose the right "programme" for each requirement and for each route and enjoy it, something that we cannot experience and learn absolutely during the limited time of our respective test drives.

Sure a Porsche manual is excellent and actually I've never owned a tip myself. Manual is also on the list for whoever chooses it. But IMO for me at least PDK gives me more possibilities for my everyday car. I will keep my other Porsche too if I want to drive manual.

The main debate here has not been about PDK as such, because very few people experienced it but about the buttons.

Porsche had no cost-related reason not to put paddles, because VW and Audi had those ready for them already. They came up with these controversial buttons using their own logic and for reasons which cannot be 100% stupid and IMO from what I tried, it was very easy for me to adjust to their functionality, even after driving the different VW DSG.
The Press don't like the Porsche buttons because in their daily routine they are used to different systems perhaps. If for example you make the assumption that the Porsche system happened to be the norm for many years, and then someone came up with a new configuration in which the right paddle was + and left was -, I am sure it would be received by the press and the public as a very odd system. To begin with left-handed people wouldn't like it at all.

I believe nobody should dismiss the PDK for the absence of paddles alone, if he likes its functionality. If the system's functionality is not to someone's liking, there is an even better manual now on 997.2 with which the ownwer can have even greater fun perhaps.

I find the steering wheel buttons on my TIP just fine. Yes, the steering wheel moves BUT your hands are always there. It's a matter of preference and certainly something easy to get used to.

Don't F1 cars have shift buttons on the steering wheel?

Those of us who drive on the streets are just debating buttons vs. paddles like women debate new means of applying mascara (I guess: I don't know much about womens make up ).

If the current PDK setup _works_ for the guys who buy it and live with it then it's not a big deal. It's only a big deal for guys who borrow the cars or ask to drive them.

Still, the forward=up and backward=down on the shift lever is a freekin' mindblower for me just thinking about it.

Quote:
STRADALE said:

Quote:
reginos said:

Quote:
BC911 said:
maybe i should take that off rather ...

But its how I feel sometimes when I'm reading RennTeam...Caused either by my dear friend Nick or by my former fav car manufacturer...

Yes, it is amusing how fickle people are and get carried away by the opinions of others instead of formulating their own.

If you think about it, this is how politicians manage to fool the public and survive in power.

That's pretty patronizing. Why dont think P_Nut, BC911 or I can have our own opinions? RE: politics, there's a certain word; "fascism". Try to be a little less sensative re: your stance vs others here, it's not good to have issues when everyone doesnt agree w/ you. I have to catch myself sometimes doing the same thing. I've learnt it's never going to happen, where everyone has the same opinion, that's what makes this place so interesting. Just saying try to live & let live a bit more, you may even learn something. peace.

lol i just chose to ignore he's post, cause I knew this would happen....

Quote:
BC911 said:

Quote:
STRADALE said:

Quote:
reginos said:

Quote:
BC911 said:
maybe i should take that off rather ...

But its how I feel sometimes when I'm reading RennTeam...Caused either by my dear friend Nick or by my former fav car manufacturer...

Yes, it is amusing how fickle people are and get carried away by the opinions of others instead of formulating their own.

If you think about it, this is how politicians manage to fool the public and survive in power.

That's pretty patronizing. Why dont think P_Nut, BC911 or I can have our own opinions? RE: politics, there's a certain word; "fascism". Try to be a little less sensative re: your stance vs others here, it's not good to have issues when everyone doesnt agree w/ you. I have to catch myself sometimes doing the same thing. I've learnt it's never going to happen, where everyone has the same opinion, that's what makes this place so interesting. Just saying try to live & let live a bit more, you may even learn something. peace.

lol i just chose to ignore he's post, cause I knew this would happen....

Ignoring is often a good excuse for someone without arguments.

Moreover, please check your spelling. Did you mean "ignore his post" because "ignore he's post" doesn't make any sense!

yes it is often an excuse, but in this case I just didnt waste my time...which it seems I am now doing

wow...thank you, for correcting me, ma'am

Quote:
mp said:
...Don't F1 cars have shift buttons on the steering wheel?...

I think they have paddles that move with the wheel.

Quote:
BC911 said:
yes it is often an excuse, but in this case I just didnt waste my time...which it seems I am now doing

wow...thank you, for correcting me, ma'am

Haha your knowledge of cars seems to rival the quality of your spelling Capeman

whats wrong, your panties wet??

k... I had my laugh for the day, now lets stop hijacking this thread

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BC911 said:
k... I had my laugh for the day, now lets stop hijacking this thread

Cheers man, a laugh can't be a bad thing.

Have a good day

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Ruf knows. Ferrari knows. Lambo knows. Porsche,,well....guess they wanted to target the feminine audience, who knows.

Female audience. I guess that means women don't move their hands from the 10 - 2 positions while spirited driving. Unlike Ferrari & Lambo drivers who must loosely slide & saw their hands around the wheel while turning it (which of course is NECESSARY in order to keep finding the shift paddles permanently mounted to the steering wheel)?

What a silly debate. Hitting a hard right-handed apex at a high mph with seriously lateral G-Forces, the last thing I want to do is have to slide my hand around the steering wheel to locate the shift paddle. Fixed to the steering wheel right next to my thumbs, right at the 10 and 2 o'clock positions, is perfect, I know exactly where they are at all times.

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P_Nut said:
I was about to go ahead with my order for a PDK 997 cab, until my fears were confirmed regarding the steering wheel mounted gear-change buttons.
The reviews from the experts and users have so far been consistent, most if not all really like the pdk itself, but most do not find the gear-shift buttons workable, or satisfying to use.

My question is (other than wondering about the rationalle behind these buttons) can a third party solution comprising two "standard" paddle-shifts for this ever be possible (from a technical and safety stand-point)?
Was an after-market solution like this ever available for a porsche?

I would like to mention that even shifting PADDLES can be a problem.
We just got a BMW M3 Cab DKG and sometimes I accidentally downshift instead of turning on the left turning signal. The huge paddle is in the way. The PDK buttons are also a problem, simply because the rear button downshifts and the front button upshifts, another problem is the fact that there aren't two different buttons but only ONE button which moves to the rear or to the front and sometimes this can also lead to an accidental mis-shift.

Personally, I have a system in mind which is some sort of an almost half-circle behind the steering wheel, the left part for downshifting, the right one for upshifting. It should be long enough to allow shifting in or shortly before/after curves, something which isn't really necessary but sometimes convenient.

Can't see how it would be difficult to either alter the switch behaviour on one of the sides - or add on paddles that connect to the wiring

90 percent of this thread is multiple repeats of previous responses. Boring and lacking in any original thought. Misuse of thread utilities.

IMO no system is good for all. I actually like the PDK paddles as they are similar to my C6's paddles which work well. But best of all, forget the paddles, use the stick. The last tip would not shift with the stick - the new PDK stick does.

Top Gear:

If you're struggling to get much visual traction on this 'all-new' 911, don't worry - I've been driving it for two hours and have twice tried to drive away in older versions, the last time in a different colour.

Subtle doesn't seem to adequately describe the feathering of newness: new LEDs up front, a slightly more curvaceous rear light lens, some sculpting to the rear air dam, new wheels (not that you'd notice) and slightly larger wing mirrors - I've been squinting so hard at the assembled line-up, I may have gone temporarily Porsche-blind.

But that's what we've come to expect from Porsche; visual evolution that's slower than basic biological evolution - so extremely considered that it's, frankly, hard to see. Really, it's the blood and guts that have changed; 'new' 911 has a pair of new engines and a new seven-speed double-clutch transmission called Porsche Doppelkupplungsgetriebe (literally 'doubleclutchgearbox') that replaces the Tiptronic auto.
The pair of 'standard' flat-six rear-mounted motors are pretty similar-looking to before. Both normally aspirated, in the same-sized flavours: 3.6 for the Carrera, 3.8 for the Carrera S. But that's where the similarities end, because both motors now sport direct fuel injection (DFI) and a host of other changes that mean this generation has very little to do with its predecessors.

The DFI system does exactly what it says - fuel is injected directly into the cylinder via a high-pressure rail on the outside of the block, giving better metering of the fuel/air mix. The cleaner and more efficient burn means better fuel economy and emissions, as well as a bonus hike in horsepower and torque. Hence the basic Carrera now sports 345bhp (up 20bhp), with the Carrera S pumping another 30bhp through the rear wheels to give it 385bhp.

Torque is up by 14lb ft and 15lb ft respectively, and fuel consumption and emissions are down on both cars too; 29.4mpg and 225g/km for the 3.6, and 26.6mpg and 242g/km for the 3.8-litre. The paper stats are pretty impressive then, with everything cleaner, leaner and quicker.
Inside, the other changes are about as significant as the external massaging: so about the only thing you're likelyto notice is the larger touch-screen interface in the centre console. Apparently, there are other tweaks, but I fell asleep in the presentation, and a look at the press pack has made me want to eat my own eyes, so I've forgotten why the new heated/ventilated seats are so important.

Still, fire up the new DFI engine, and it's all pretty much business as usual - the 911 huffs into life like it always has, and then settles into a peculiarly Teutonically accented conversational burble - nothing sounds quite like a 911, even in this latest DFI-ed generation. The good stuff all remains untouched: the seating position is perfect, the pedals are in just the right place, there's plenty of vision and the 911 itself manages its trick of feeling properly proportioned in a world of fat-arsed, slitty-windowed sports barges. A quick snick into 'D' from the new PDK gear selector, and off you go.

There's the usual fluffy pick-up you get with all dual-clutches from a standstill, but once on the move, the PDK changes like any other dualie - a seamless translation from one gear to the next. The detail is broadly similar to the hardware we've got used to seeing in VW and Audi product; one clutch takes care of 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and reverse, while another smaller unit tackles 2nd, 4th and 6th. You think that sounds complicated? You should read the programming booklet - this gearbox is a technological monster that tries very hard to be a gearbox fetishist's dream.

That programming directly affects the driving experience too. One of the ways Porsche has increased fuel efficiency in the PDK-equipped cars is to programme the software in 'D' to always go for the highest possible gear in any given situation - hence you can find yourself tooling around town at remarkably slow speed in 5th gear at 1,500rpm.

Actually it just goes to show how flexible the engine really is, and how often any car would be more than capable of pulling higher gearing and unloading the engine - but it still makes you feel like you might stall when you look down and see a high number on the dash display and an unlikely low number on the speedo.

Of course, when you need to kick down, the PDK senses throttle position and can drop to second gear in roughly a third of a second, providing the kind of response you'd expect from a Porsche. It's a little odd at first, but the way the car simply plods around in town is a joy - it really does feel like the 911 is trying to take gentle steps. When you push, the new gearbox seems to engineer in a little more kick in the back from the changes, and does all the usual blippery on the downshifts - it really does walk the tight-rope well.

Indeed, start making proper use of the car, and you'll find more power as well as a pair of motors that feel more brawny. There's a definite feeling that some of the internal inertia has been lost from the hardware, and crack on through a tunnel and you'll be rewarded with an '08 remix of a classic flat-six wail. Good stuff.

Unfortunately, the DFI means that there's an annoyingly tappetty chatter at idle speed, but apart from that, the news is all good from the upgrades - albeit intensely irritating if you've just taken delivery of a Carrera S that's now only very marginally quicker than the new Carrera.

Best Porsche ever then? Ground-breaking PDK 'box, derived from 20-years of development renders every other effort second-best? Sorry, no. Part of the fun of a dual clutch is the ability to play with the paddles and do some flicking of the electronics yourself. But instead of lovely paddles behind the steering wheel, one for up on the right, one for down on the left, we have toggles.

Now these toggles both do the same thing on both sides of the wheel. You push forward to change up and pull back to change down. The same on the gear selector when in 'manual' mode. Sounds simple, but Porsche's version is utterly counter-intuitive.

There you go, barrelling into a corner and you pull back against the flow of 'G' to change down. You push the gear selector forwards to change up. Not to mention that the toggles themselves are little moulded plastic apologies that serve no tactile or ergonomic purpose whatsoever.
A perfect example of brilliance tripped at the final hurdle by something so seemingly inconsequential as a couple of microswitches.

So the 'all-new' 911 is even more of a joy when sampled with a manual gearbox. A Carrera S manual remains the favoured dream garage specification. The problem for Porsche? Those last two sentences would have read entirely differently if they'd sorted the toggles
Tom Ford
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So, the dice is cast!

I was waiting impatiently for the Top Gear opinion.

6 speed manual is the way to go, save the cost of PDK and most of all follow the advice of our favourite auto journalist.

+1

Glad I'm getting my nice and simple 6-spd manual. Use manual shift guys are not getting into a food fight about where the shift stick should be located.... I think we like it on the floor.

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STRADALE said:

A perfect example of brilliance tripped at the final hurdle by something so seemingly inconsequential as a couple of microswitches.

thanks for an informative post.
If they messed up the PDK itself, it would have been less frustrating, but the PDK again is highly rated, minus the toggles.

Why I think Porsche did it right with the toggles:

When I test drove an Audi TT DSG, its paddles were fixed in position to the column - didn't move with the steering wheel - which I found awful because when you're crossed armed which paddle do you click? You might not even be able to reach the paddles with your fingers in crossed armed situations unless you take your hand off the steering wheel. I had to use the gear stick instead in such situations.

Formula One Grand Prix cars don't have that, they have paddles that move with the steering wheel. Road car steering wheels are too large in diameter for such paddles. With the toggles, you won't have to fear which one to push/pull when you're crossed armed as they share the same function.
If the toggles are made of plastic, ask the exclusive dept to make you a pair of billet aluminium toggles.

Now I'm all for that. I'd love to see the exclusive department offer to let us replace plastic bits with brushed aluminum bits (or titanium bits?) ... particularly the trim work. I love actual metal trim... but not the painted 'aluminum look' stuff so much, unless the paint is heavy duty and will not easily scratch/wear off over time.