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Aug 1, 2008 12:41:46 PM
- cibergypsy
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Aug 1, 2008 1:03:16 PM
- Grant
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Aug 1, 2008 2:07:21 PM
- TT Surgeon
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Aug 1, 2008 6:35:23 PM
- cibergypsy
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Reply to:
Ron (Houston)
Aug 2, 2008 1:23:19 AM
- cibergypsy
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- Reply to: reginos
Re: 9A1 for turbo, GT2, GT3 confirmed
Quote:
reginos said:
The dry vs wet sump debate reminds me a the air vs water-cooled debate of 10 years ago.
Maybe but it's not exactly the same debate. Both air cooled and water cooled Porsches have been very successful at the racetrack so, to me, it doesn't and has never been an issue wether to choose for an air cooled 911 (I own a 1987 3.2 Carrera) vs. a water cooled 911 (I own a 997 S and previously a 996 C4S). The issue is that the wet sump motors are not developed for the track and are inferior to the GT1 engine, period. This issue doesn't have the same connotation as the air cooled vs. water cooled one as I would gladly own a 993 Turbo, a 996 Turbo or a 997 Turbo regardless of the cooling medium.
Aug 2, 2008 2:41:56 AM
- TT Gasman
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Re: 9A1 for turbo, GT2, GT3 confirmed
Quote:
TT Gasman said:
The replacement cost of an M97/91A is about $10K, the dry sump motors cost about $40K. What does that tell you??
Nuff said.
It tells me the d/sump cars are over engineered for the road and even for amateur tracking. You will not enter an ALMS race in your road car.
It is like you live in an area with near zero earthquake risk and insist to engineer your building to California standards of anti-seismicity, for example.
Re: 9A1 for turbo, GT2, GT3 confirmed
Quote:
TT Gasman said:
The replacement cost of an M97/91A is about $10K, the dry sump motors cost about $40K. What does that tell you??
Nuff said.
This is like buying a Rolex, but getting Seiko guts. Sure it'll do the job, but is that what the Porschephile wants?
What a shame...
Re: 9A1 for turbo, GT2, GT3 confirmed
Quote:
trip said:
Obviously you will not subject the car to the same types of stress present in ALMS during a track session, but it is this overengineering that enables extreme levels of tuning without internal mods, as well as unparalleled longevity.
No manufacturer endorses outside tuning. If you want your TT tuned you can buy a GT2, according to PAG's way of thinking.
Re: 9A1 for turbo, GT2, GT3 confirmed
Quote:
reginos said:Quote:
TT Gasman said:
The replacement cost of an M97/91A is about $10K, the dry sump motors cost about $40K. What does that tell you??
Nuff said.
It tells me the d/sump cars are over engineered for the road and even for amateur tracking. You will not enter an ALMS race in your road car.
It is like you live in an area with near zero earthquake risk and insist to engineer your building to California standards of anti-seismicity, for example.
Do you have a source for this info? I have been told that the current engine can cost as much as $50k, however, I am not so sure that its replacement only costs $10K. I am not saying you are not correct, but can you elaborate?
Aug 2, 2008 11:05:25 PM
- cibergypsy
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- Reply to: reginos
Re: 9A1 for turbo, GT2, GT3 confirmed
Quote:
reginos said:Quote:
TT Gasman said:
The replacement cost of an M97/91A is about $10K, the dry sump motors cost about $40K. What does that tell you??
Nuff said.
It tells me the d/sump cars are over engineered for the road and even for amateur tracking. You will not enter an ALMS race in your road car.
It is like you live in an area with near zero earthquake risk and insist to engineer your building to California standards of anti-seismicity, for example.
You are right about this except that Porsche does charge you for the Carreras as if they built to California anti-seismicity codes while giving you an adobe hut, not quite an adobe hut but you get the point. The margin of profit on the regular Carreras is huge compared to the Turbos and GTs. On a side note, I saw today a 997 GT2 in black at my local Porsche dealer. Needless to say, it was sold already and was BAD!!!! They also have a 997 GT3 RS in black/orange but it doesn't have the presence of the GT2. Of course, the GT2 had a sticker of $217k plus and the GT3 RS is selling for $139k with 5k miles so I would expect the GT2 to look the part. Not that the GT3 doesn't look it but you guys know what I mean.
Re: 9A1 for turbo, GT2, GT3 confirmed
Quote:
reginos said:Quote:
trip said:
Obviously you will not subject the car to the same types of stress present in ALMS during a track session, but it is this overengineering that enables extreme levels of tuning without internal mods, as well as unparalleled longevity.
No manufacturer endorses outside tuning. If you want your TT tuned you can buy a GT2, according to PAG's way of thinking.
I understand that is Porsche's way of thinking, but as was mentioned in the post above, you're still being charged the same amount. Many people on this board do choose to tune their cars and are therefore frustrated by this move. Even if you don't tune your car, having the GT1 block allows you to drive the car harder for more miles knowing it is overengineered. I'm not say it doesn't have maintenance issues, but it is definitely better built than the regular carrera block.
Aug 3, 2008 7:36:25 PM
- cibergypsy
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- Reply to: svtrader1
Re: 9A1 for turbo, GT2, GT3 confirmed
Quote:
svtrader1 said:Quote:
TT Gasman said:
The replacement cost of an M97/91A is about $10K, the dry sump motors cost about $40K. What does that tell you??
Nuff said.
This is like buying a Rolex, but getting Seiko guts. Sure it'll do the job, but is that what the Porschephile wants?
What a shame...
How does the saying go??? Hit the nail on its head???
That's exactly what you've done! Exactly what I feel. You get a car that resembles a 911 but the inner machinery could have been made by anyone and is of inferior quality. On the air cooled cars that never happened and it didn't matter wether or not one got a Carrera, Carrera 4, Turbo, RS etc. the basic engine was the same and of the same quality standard. Now only the GT 3, GT 2 and Turbo crowd gets the good engine and the rest get the substandard one. It makes sense as far as marketing since the Carrera based cars are the ones bought by the non-enthusiast by the thousands but, every once in a while, a real enthusiast would like to buy a Carrera because it suits them better than the other options, only to be forced into buying the car with the junk engine (junk as compared to the GT1, of course).
Aug 4, 2008 3:31:39 AM
- TT Surgeon
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Aug 4, 2008 6:40:15 AM
- ADias
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Reply to:
Ron (Houston)
Re: 9A1 for turbo, GT2, GT3 confirmed
Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
Is this a BS about 9A1 ?
I had not seen that, thanks!
Some may say that this is market BS. I actually think that it makes engineering sense. Keeping the oil constantly circulating and encapsulated in the engine block definitely serves as a cooling element.
Aug 4, 2008 6:44:49 AM
- ADias
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- Reply to: cibergypsy
Re: 9A1 for turbo, GT2, GT3 confirmed
Quote:
cibergypsy said:Quote:
reginos said:
The dry vs wet sump debate reminds me a the air vs water-cooled debate of 10 years ago.
Maybe but it's not exactly the same debate. Both air cooled and water cooled Porsches have been very successful at the racetrack so, to me, it doesn't and has never been an issue wether to choose for an air cooled 911 (I own a 1987 3.2 Carrera) vs. a water cooled 911 (I own a 997 S and previously a 996 C4S). The issue is that the wet sump motors are not developed for the track and are inferior to the GT1 engine, period. This issue doesn't have the same connotation as the air cooled vs. water cooled one as I would gladly own a 993 Turbo, a 996 Turbo or a 997 Turbo regardless of the cooling medium.
As Carlos wrote elsewhere - the M96/M97 equipped cars should not be shod with Cup cars. The new cars w/ the 9A1 engine can. Therefore the new oil scavenging tech in the A91 can deal with the Gs that Cups allow pulling. Case closed.
Re: 9A1 for turbo, GT2, GT3 confirmed
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
cibergypsy said:Quote:
reginos said:
The dry vs wet sump debate reminds me a the air vs water-cooled debate of 10 years ago.
Maybe but it's not exactly the same debate. Both air cooled and water cooled Porsches have been very successful at the racetrack so, to me, it doesn't and has never been an issue wether to choose for an air cooled 911 (I own a 1987 3.2 Carrera) vs. a water cooled 911 (I own a 997 S and previously a 996 C4S). The issue is that the wet sump motors are not developed for the track and are inferior to the GT1 engine, period. This issue doesn't have the same connotation as the air cooled vs. water cooled one as I would gladly own a 993 Turbo, a 996 Turbo or a 997 Turbo regardless of the cooling medium.
As Carlos wrote elsewhere - the M96/M97 equipped cars should not be shod with Cup cars. The new cars w/ the 9A1 engine can. Therefore the new oil scavenging tech in the A91 can deal with the Gs that Cups allow pulling. Case closed.
So, ADias, do you expect the new engine to be as durable and resilient as the old one?
Aug 5, 2008 4:47:57 AM
- silverrules
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Aug 12, 2008 4:41:53 AM
- Silver Bullet
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Aug 12, 2008 12:01:27 PM
- thuggy
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Re: 9A1 for turbo, GT2, GT3 confirmed
Quote:
silverrules said:
Change is always a bi$ch. Only time will tell if the new engine is better or worse. Don't duel over this 2 much. For now we have a GT1 car and should hold on to it until the new engine is proven. Later.
Agreed...
Only problem I see is for those who wish to mod... Tuners have to start all over again...
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