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    Jul 27, 2008 10:39:43 PM

    Dr. Phil Offline
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    Dr. Phil
    Loc: Denmark , Denmark
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    Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Just got this news from another F1-interested Rennteam member.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsp...of-trouble.html

    http://www.wheels24.co.za/Content/Formul...cret%20revealed

    I guess my comments about Hamilton using dirty tricks in the last GP wasn't that much off the mark:

    McLaren is bypassing the F1 rules with a loophole and hence the unfair advantage Hamilton was having over Ferrari and the rest of the cars, especially in slippery conditions (wet like Silverstone or worn tires at the end of dry races).

    Jul 27, 2008 10:42:28 PM

    JoeRockhead
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    JoeRockhead
    Loc: Topside , Monaco
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Neither URL is working for me. One is a 404, the says 'bad request'. Crap... I love a good scandal.

    Jul 27, 2008 10:51:24 PM

    Atzporsche
    Rennteam VIP
    Atzporsche
    Loc: Vancouver , Canada
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    Reply to: JoeRockhead

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    im not surprised if its true... hamilton is nothing special.. sorry the rain down on some peoples party!

    Jul 27, 2008 10:52:43 PM

    r8m8
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    r8m8
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    Reply to: JoeRockhead

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Only thing I see on either site is news of a "routine and random" check of Mclaren's engine. Can you repost the links, assume there is more to it?

    http://www.wheels24.co.za/Content/Formul...on%27s%20engine

    Jul 27, 2008 10:54:04 PM

    Enmanuel
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    Enmanuel
    Loc: Boston , United States
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    Reply to: JoeRockhead

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    they dont work !!!! i want the info !

    Jul 27, 2008 10:55:04 PM

    r8m8
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    r8m8
    Loc: Europe
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    Reply to: r8m8

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    oh, here it is: http://www.wheels24.co.za/Content/Formul...cret%20revealed

    Doesn't sound illegal. Way to go McLaren!

    Jul 27, 2008 11:06:17 PM

    Dr. Phil Offline
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    Dr. Phil
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    Reply to: r8m8

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Links fixed in original post. Enjoy

    Jul 28, 2008 12:23:35 AM

    Moogle
    Rennteam Master
    Moogle
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Very clever, but this isn't real racing when it comes down to these sorts of clandestine shennanigans. It should be about the drivers...

    Jul 28, 2008 12:32:49 AM

    Dr. Phil Offline
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    Dr. Phil
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    Reply to: Moogle

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Very true, Moogle.
    If you haven't got the skill to drive the car faster than the others, you can always try to bend the rules and win via technical gadgets.

    Jul 28, 2008 1:04:10 AM

    AndyM
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    AndyM
    Loc: Durham, NH (UNH)
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    I say go Mclaren! Very smart to be trying that in order to get around the rules! Combine that with a damn good new driver and thats a pretty sweet set up!

    Jul 28, 2008 1:16:16 AM

    r8m8
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    r8m8
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    Reply to: AndyM

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Bend the rules? Every team is pushing on all technical fronts to give their drivers the best package. This is no different. The only reason you're annoyed is because it's a team you're not supporting.

    Jul 28, 2008 2:23:40 AM

    Gladstone
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    Reply to: r8m8

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Seems like a technology any team could have employed.
    Doesn't seem to be doing much for Kovalainen.
    I want eight paddles on my steering wheel.
    Just not sure why yet.

    Jul 28, 2008 2:31:25 AM

    Heist
    Rennteam Master
    Heist
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    Reply to: r8m8

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    How clever and smart!

    That's not cheating at all; all they're doing is manually adjusting the engine mapping - the same all the other F1 cars do!

    But instead of just controlling the fuel mapping and thus power output, Mclaren engineers decided to make secondary adjustments available to control the amount of torque output, which is essentially want traction control was doing automatically.

    So say, coming out of slick or wet corner, instead of feathering the gas to control wheel spin you simply hold down a paddle to cut back on the torque and when the when everything is settled - release the paddles and WHAMO - full torque is there for acceleration because you didn't have to LET OFF THE REVS!

    Brillant!

    BRAVO, McLAREN!

    Everybody screaming McLaren's cheating - don't hate the players, hate the game. It's the best engineered car and driver that wins and anything that gives your driver the most advantages without violation is OK with me.

    Jul 28, 2008 3:26:12 AM

    WhoopsyM Offline
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    Whoopsy
    Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada
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    Reply to: Heist

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    That is called brilliant engineering, it's what F1 stands for, that and the Nazi Sex Parties. :P

    Actually most teams ALREADY run a 4 paddle steering wheel, so there really is nothing special.

    I remember seeing 4 paddle wheels on Williams AND Renault's cars when they appeared in 5th Gear and Top Gear.

    Jul 28, 2008 3:40:28 AM

    ADias
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    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    It does not surprise me one bit. Now that this is in the open, I hope the other teams follow suit and do likewise.

    Jul 28, 2008 5:03:02 AM

    Malakas
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    I agree about making it all about the drivers... But if they are using four paddles (!!)to make the car faster/more stable - then they have incredible skills. I can barely make a quick 2-3 shift

    Jul 28, 2008 6:06:55 AM

    BjoernB
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    BjoernB
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    I would ban it...
    First they make the TC illegal and now they allow it because its "kind of manual work involved" ? What a joke.
    I would vote for normal clutch, open 6 speed manual gearbox, no gizmos - pure racing with blisters on their hands. In these days is just who has the best "playstation-mobil" and obviouly can use 4 flappy gearlevers instead of two - next thing is that we get also 4 in the car....?

    Jul 28, 2008 6:11:51 AM

    Heist
    Rennteam Master
    Heist
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    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Quote:
    Whoopsy said:
    That is called brilliant engineering, it's what F1 stands for, that and the Nazi Sex Parties. :P

    Actually most teams ALREADY run a 4 paddle steering wheel, so there really is nothing special.

    I remember seeing 4 paddle wheels on Williams AND Renault's cars when they appeared in 5th Gear and Top Gear.



    Yes, but those 2 extra paddles were Neutral paddles. They are used to disengage the clutch quickly in the case of a near stall or spin.

    Jul 28, 2008 6:15:45 AM

    Heist
    Rennteam Master
    Heist
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    Reply to: BjoernB

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Quote:
    BjoernB said:
    I would ban it...
    First they make the TC illegal and now they allow it because its "kind of manual work involved" ? What a joke.
    I would vote for normal clutch, open 6 speed manual gearbox, no gizmos - pure racing with blisters on their hands. In these days is just who has the best "playstation-mobil" and obviouly can use 4 flappy gearlevers instead of two - next thing is that we get also 4 in the car....?



    These engines are in such a high state of tune and run so fast, you can't use a H open gate. Between shifts, the revs would fall too fast. Not to mention, the G levels these guys run at - they need both hands on the wheel to brace themselves.

    Jul 28, 2008 7:11:47 AM

    Lars997M
    Rennteam Moderator
    Lars997
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    Reply to: Heist

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    There we go... most of time there is something like this if someone is this far ahead of the peergroup.

    Smart to use the gaps in the regulatory! Just a matter of time until they will close it now or others are adapting.

    Jul 28, 2008 7:25:33 AM

    ha Offline
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    ha
    Loc: Riyadh , Saudi Arabia
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    Reply to: Lars997M

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    I fail to see the "Scandal" in this matter!

    Jul 28, 2008 12:11:50 PM

    Dr. Phil Offline
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    Dr. Phil
    Loc: Denmark , Denmark
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    Reply to: ha

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Seems to me these rules are there so that the teams compete on equal terms, or as equal as possible.
    Finding a loophole in the rules may be a clever way of gaining the upper hand, but it is also going against the very idea that traction control is banned.
    I am sure this is an academic/philosophical/moral issue, and not a practical one. F1 is about money, money and money, and GPs are apparently not being won by being the best driver with the best team, but having the best lawyers finding the smartest loopholes.
    If McLaren had invented a better brake system, a better aerodynamic setup etc, it would at least have been a legitimate and straightforward way of exploiting the existing rules, while still sticking to the spirit of the FIA rules.
    This new stunt just proves that their "Golden Boy" isnt that golden after all.
    Apparently he needs a traction control system to win.
    Scandalous? I dunno. Probably not- since we are so used to cheaters in every single sport we watch.
    I find it a tad too clever and very little sportsmanlike.

    Jul 28, 2008 12:16:42 PM

    assman!!!
    Pilot
    assman!!!
    Loc: London , United Kingdom
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Ahhh, where are the days when Schumacher was able to win races with a dog of a car with nothing but pure skill...

    Jul 28, 2008 1:14:53 PM

    ALDOM
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    ALDO
    Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany
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    Reply to: assman!!!

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Quote:
    assman!!! said:
    Ahhh, where are the days when Schumacher was able to win races with a dog of a car with nothing but pure skill...



    you mean "SCHUMMEL-SCHUMI"?? in english cheating-Schumi!

    AM

    Jul 28, 2008 1:21:49 PM

    reginos
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    Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Quote:
    assman!!! said:
    Ahhh, where are the days when Schumacher was able to win races with a dog of a car with nothing but pure skill...



    you mean "SCHUMMEL-SCHUMI"?? in english cheating-Schumi!

    AM



    IMO the last real champion in all sense of the word was the great Austrian Niki Lauda!

    Fast, intelligent,classy, calculating, brave, and with 2 glorious comebacks one of which was from death!

    Jul 28, 2008 7:01:40 PM

    doyle
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    doyle
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    Seems to me these rules are there so that the teams compete on equal terms, or as equal as possible.
    Finding a loophole in the rules may be a clever way of gaining the upper hand, but it is also going against the very idea that traction control is banned.
    I am sure this is an academic/philosophical/moral issue, and not a practical one. F1 is about money, money and money, and GPs are apparently not being won by being the best driver with the best team, but having the best lawyers finding the smartest loopholes.
    If McLaren had invented a better brake system, a better aerodynamic setup etc, it would at least have been a legitimate and straightforward way of exploiting the existing rules, while still sticking to the spirit of the FIA rules.
    This new stunt just proves that their "Golden Boy" isnt that golden after all.
    Apparently he needs a traction control system to win.
    Scandalous? I dunno. Probably not- since we are so used to cheaters in every single sport we watch.
    I find it a tad too clever and very little sportsmanlike.



    90% of the innovation in F1 comes as a result of finding solutions to restraints. In that regard, FIA rules are no different than the rules of physics or aerodynamics. Finding a gap in either to innovate a new solution is not cheating, it's clever engineering. To F1 engineers, the FIA rules are merely another performance problem to be corrected.

    Jul 28, 2008 7:30:57 PM

    ADias
    Rennteam Pro
    ADias
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    Reply to: doyle

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    This is why I like Kimi. He is a no non-nonsense great driver who does not cheat, does not blame anyone but himself, and has a terrible luck.

    Jul 28, 2008 10:21:16 PM

    ResB Offline
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    Loc: Yorkshire, where roads are twisty... , United Kingdom
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    Just got this news from another F1-interested Rennteam member.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsp...of-trouble.html

    http://www.wheels24.co.za/Content/Formul...cret%20revealed

    I guess my comments about Hamilton using dirty tricks in the last GP wasn't that much off the mark:

    McLaren is bypassing the F1 rules with a loophole and hence the unfair advantage Hamilton was having over Ferrari and the rest of the cars, especially in slippery conditions (wet like Silverstone or worn tires at the end of dry races).



    Hey Doc, you really don't like Hamilton do you.

    Jul 28, 2008 11:19:12 PM

    Dr. Phil Offline
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    Dr. Phil
    Loc: Denmark , Denmark
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    Reply to: ResB

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Quote:
    ResB said:
    Hey Doc, you really don't like Hamilton do you.



    Hehe, you're absolutely right
    And it would seem I have more and more reasons not to.

    Jul 28, 2008 11:38:44 PM

    Dr. Phil Offline
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    Dr. Phil
    Loc: Denmark , Denmark
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    Reply to: doyle

    Re: Scandal? Hamilton's secret advantage

    Quote:
    doyle said:
    90% of the innovation in F1 comes as a result of finding solutions to restraints. In that regard, FIA rules are no different than the rules of physics or aerodynamics. Finding a gap in either to innovate a new solution is not cheating, it's clever engineering. To F1 engineers, the FIA rules are merely another performance problem to be corrected.



    I agree to a certain extent.
    However, there is a difference in making the most WITHIN the limitations imposed, and trying to find loopholes and thus not following the very idea of said restraints.
    If the rules say "naturally aspired 8 cylinder engine" then it's the goal of the teams to make the best and most powerful engine possible withing that limitation.
    But if the rules call for "no traction control" and you come up with a system that does the same thing, only you call it something different, then you don't play by the rules in my book.
    It's like when politicians tell a lie. They don't call it a lie, but "an untruth".
    Same sh!t, different smell.

    McLaren apparently dont like to play by the rules.
    They know full well that traction control has been banned for several reasons.
    Maybe the FIA hasn't been precise enough in their wording when they made the limitations, but I am pretty sure they didn't expect or wish for the teams to come up with a device that does the exact same thing, only thru the use of different technology.

    What's next?
    McLaren comes up with a software virus that disprupts the other teams' programming? Hey! The rules don't say you cant do that!

    The rule of no traction control was partly introduced to make the teams more equal and the races more exciting and, well.. fair.
    We want to see the best driver win, and altho the established teams probably always will have the upper hand, and the teams are never truly equal, these rules (omitting TC being one of them) are there to try to even the odds.

    Breaking that rule, no matter how cleverly you do it, goes against the very point of the rule.
    McLaren knows this, the FIA knows this and we as spectators know this.
    Let's see how many races they will let Hamilton win in his traction control car, before they stop him, or all the other teams also get TC (called something else) back.
     
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