Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: What would be really nice... - Page1

Jul 13, 2008 3:53:32 AM

9966c2: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 27, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 12, 2004

What would be really nice...

...is a top of the range porsche to rival the Ferrari 599... a 928 successor, front engine, RWD or 4WD, with a detuned(?) carrera GT V10 engine and PDK. I should think such a Porsche should be below the 599 price (given the 599 uses the enzo engine), and perform at least as well as the 599. Most importantly (to me) if it could SOUND anything like the CGT this could possibly be the best sounding volume production supercar....What do you think?

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Jul 13, 2008 3:58:38 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: 9966c2

Re: What would be really nice...

A Panamera derivative will probably be just like that. Not that I care about it.

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Jul 13, 2008 6:25:56 AM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: ADias

Re: What would be really nice...

Porsche's real speciality is mid engine supercars... they would not build one because it could affect Carrera GT residuals.

Their last front engine (928) car priced higher than the 911 didn't sell too well...

They need something in the 200-250k area to challenge Ferrari.

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Jul 13, 2008 11:32:23 AM

MarekN: Pilot; Loc: Czech Republic; Posts: 409, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 7, 2006; Reply to: Moogle

Re: What would be really nice...

I think that if the Panamera takes off, there could be a coupe version to tackle exactly the sort of car as the GTB or DBS.

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Jul 13, 2008 2:51:07 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: 9966c2

Re: What would be really nice...

Quote:
9966c2 said:
...is a top of the range porsche to rival the Ferrari 599... a 928 successor, front engine, RWD or 4WD, with a detuned(?) carrera GT V10 engine and PDK. I should think such a Porsche should be below the 599 price (given the 599 uses the enzo engine), and perform at least as well as the 599. Most importantly (to me) if it could SOUND anything like the CGT this could possibly be the best sounding volume production supercar....What do you think?

More likely, to fit Wiedeking's emphasis of cost minimization, there will be a series of 2-door Panamera's, but using the identical engines implemented in the 4-door models: NA V6, NA V8, V8TT (? instead of CGT V10), Targa, V6 hybrid, ? diesel, 2WD and 4WD. So the range-topper will then be the V8TT. Just my guess.

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Jul 13, 2008 3:31:06 PM

9966c2: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 27, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 12, 2004; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: What would be really nice...

yes you guys are right, I think it makes financial sense for porsche to introduce a 2 door version of the panamera to fill the gap left by the 928..and given the emphasis on profit/volume will probably be V6, V8, V8TT. Nice, but the CGT V10 would be much much nicer IMO. The thing with Ferraris has been that I don't think they have ever been offered with a choice of engines (?) whereas Porsche seems to offer choices (997/997S, Cayenne/s/gts/turbo/turboS, Cayman/S etc)...nothing wrong with customer choice to push sales, but I it dilutes the exclusivity somewhat and would make a range topping super "CGT V10 version of the 2Door panemera" just that little more unlikely...I think many customers who can afford such a car may be a little put off knowing there is an identical looking car with a 3.6Litre V6.

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Jul 13, 2008 4:40:23 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: 9966c2

Re: What would be really nice...

Quote:
9966c2 said:
yes you guys are right, I think it makes financial sense for porsche to introduce a 2 door version of the panamera to fill the gap left by the 928..and given the emphasis on profit/volume will probably be V6, V8, V8TT. Nice, but the CGT V10 would be much much nicer IMO. The thing with Ferraris has been that I don't think they have ever been offered with a choice of engines (?) whereas Porsche seems to offer choices (997/997S, Cayenne/s/gts/turbo/turboS, Cayman/S etc)...nothing wrong with customer choice to push sales, but I it dilutes the exclusivity somewhat and would make a range topping super "CGT V10 version of the 2Door panemera" just that little more unlikely...I think many customers who can afford such a car may be a little put off knowing there is an identical looking car with a 3.6Litre V6.

Keep in mind that exclusivity in a product as technically complex as a car is the enemy of quality, reliability and technical sophistication, since really exclusive cars cannot be sold in large enough numbers to amortize the massive up-front investments the manufacturer has to make (including design and testing).

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Jul 13, 2008 4:57:03 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: Moogle

Re: What would be really nice...

Quote:
Moogle said:
Porsche's real speciality is mid engine supercars...

Their last front engine (928) car priced higher than the 911 didn't sell too well...

Their specialty now is 20 shades of white.

The quote regarding 928 sales is just not in tune with the reality.

The 928's heyday was the mid 80's. Porsche was selling 5,000 units/year of a flagship model that would sticker today for $140,000.00!

It's competition (performance and price-wise) were the Ferrari TR, Lambo countach, Lotus espirit, and aston sh!tmobile. How many of those sold?

Isn't that the price of a well optioned 997 TT? How many 997 TT's does porsche move off the lots today?

That all happened in a different time, today there are many more wealthy people, many more who can and do purchase high end auto's. ALL THE SALES now going to AM for V8's, DB 9's, some going to Lambo for Gallardo's , going to Maserati, going to Ferrari for California, 612, and some 599, going to bentley for GT's, going to jag for XK's, going to merc for SL's and CL's, and BMW M6's would be 928 version 2 sales.

But as usual, Porsche will be late to the party like with the SUV, DI, and paddle shifting.

Supercharged V8 at the same weight as my car putting out 600hp would do just fine. BTW no exotic sounds better than my car except the cgt.

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Jul 13, 2008 10:48:37 PM

trip: Expert; Loc: Bay Area California , United States; Posts: 1691, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 11, 2006; Reply to: racerx

Re: What would be really nice...

Quote:
racerx said:
Quote:
Moogle said:
Porsche's real speciality is mid engine supercars...

Their last front engine (928) car priced higher than the 911 didn't sell too well...

Their specialty now is 20 shades of white.

The quote regarding 928 sales is just not in tune with the reality.

The 928's heyday was the mid 80's. Porsche was selling 5,000 units/year of a flagship model that would sticker today for $140,000.00!

It's competition (performance and price-wise) were the Ferrari TR, Lambo countach, Lotus espirit, and aston sh!tmobile. How many of those sold?

Isn't that the price of a well optioned 997 TT? How many 997 TT's does porsche move off the lots today?

That all happened in a different time, today there are many more wealthy people, many more who can and do purchase high end auto's. ALL THE SALES now going to AM for V8's, DB 9's, some going to Lambo for Gallardo's , going to Maserati, going to Ferrari for California, 612, and some 599, going to bentley for GT's, going to jag for XK's, going to merc for SL's and CL's, and BMW M6's would be 928 version 2 sales.

But as usual, Porsche will be late to the party like with the SUV, DI, and paddle shifting.

Supercharged V8 at the same weight as my car putting out 600hp would do just fine. BTW no exotic sounds better than my car except the cgt.

No exotic except the cgt? GT3, 360cs, Zonda F, Mclaren f1, to name a few

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Jul 14, 2008 2:01:05 AM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: trip

Re: What would be really nice...

GT3 give me a break, that's what a base 911 should sound like, a stradale, the best sounding production ferrari, i have driven one, nice sound but no cigar, Zonda, are there any in the US?

Mclaren f1 and Zonda are very nice bmw and mercedes V12's but they are really no different than an aston vV12 or the nice old XKE 12.

No mean burble on coast down, no explosive sound on idle.

I tell you what, I revise my previous statement to not just the CGT, but the F-50 and equal to a very rare F355 challenge car with straight pipes I heard at a meet once.

I have a one-off exhaust with the best V-8 porsche built, and people love the sound.

Regular mechanics have said it sounds like a big block, porsche mechanics stop work to come out and listen to it and i passed a guy in a mint 356 on a way to a car show once just doing 65 and when i saw him later, a stranger to me, first thing he said was your car sounds awesome.

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Jul 14, 2008 4:33:20 AM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: racerx

Re: What would be really nice...

probably the best you can get from porsche now but still not even close http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=badA0ntOxsE

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Jul 14, 2008 6:43:22 AM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: racerx

Re: What would be really nice...

Quote:
racerx said:
probably the best you can get from porsche now but still not even close http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=badA0ntOxsE

I completely agree. Porsche is now a marketing culture instead of a engineering/research culture.

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Jul 14, 2008 6:36:06 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Moogle

Re: What would be really nice...

Quote:
Moogle said:

I completely agree. Porsche is now a marketing culture instead of a engineering/research culture.

You now what? Please forgive me but I see that young guy "enjoying" his Porsche and I think "What the fk does he know?" I grew up with early aircooled 911s, without airbags, had blaupunkt _radios_ etc. I KNOW what Porsche is supposed to mean; what it was founded upon. How special they were. How fun the _true_ sportscar scene was.

These guys just see it as a status symbol, they have no idea how Porsche was an amazing unique car company and well ahead of it's time back in the 70s.

I don't give a sh*t really. I'm just observing what BS everything commercial turns into over time.

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Jul 14, 2008 8:03:35 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Moogle

Re: What would be really nice...

Quote:
Moogle said:
Quote:
racerx said:
probably the best you can get from porsche now but still not even close http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=badA0ntOxsE

I completely agree. Porsche is now a marketing culture instead of a engineering/research culture.

IMO the engineering/research culture still exists but it is subject to profit. In the past they did things in a hit and miss haphazard way which was the case with many other companies in those days.

Porsche were almost extinct in the early 90s. The new method led to revival and a large share in the VW empire which can't be that bad.

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Jul 14, 2008 8:22:21 PM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: reginos

Re: What would be really nice...

Absolutely, but their spirit of innovation is severely undermined by the bean counters' priorities.

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Jul 14, 2008 11:18:39 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Moogle

Re: What would be really nice...

Quote:
Moogle said:
Absolutely, but their spirit of innovation is severely undermined by the bean counters' priorities.

Well put.

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Jul 15, 2008 12:53:48 AM

trip: Expert; Loc: Bay Area California , United States; Posts: 1691, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 11, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: What would be really nice...

Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
Moogle said:

I completely agree. Porsche is now a marketing culture instead of a engineering/research culture.

You now what? Please forgive me but I see that young guy "enjoying" his Porsche and I think "What the fk does he know?" I grew up with early aircooled 911s, without airbags, had blaupunkt _radios_ etc. I KNOW what Porsche is supposed to mean; what it was founded upon. How special they were. How fun the _true_ sportscar scene was.

These guys just see it as a status symbol, they have no idea how Porsche was an amazing unique car company and well ahead of it's time back in the 70s.

I don't give a sh*t really. I'm just observing what BS everything commercial turns into over time.

BTW I drive an '87 951 and love every minute of it. Having said that I did replace that awful Blaupunkt stereo

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Jul 15, 2008 12:55:01 PM

9966c2: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 27, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 12, 2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: What would be really nice...

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
9966c2 said:
yes you guys are right, I think it makes financial sense for porsche to introduce a 2 door version of the panamera to fill the gap left by the 928..and given the emphasis on profit/volume will probably be V6, V8, V8TT. Nice, but the CGT V10 would be much much nicer IMO. The thing with Ferraris has been that I don't think they have ever been offered with a choice of engines (?) whereas Porsche seems to offer choices (997/997S, Cayenne/s/gts/turbo/turboS, Cayman/S etc)...nothing wrong with customer choice to push sales, but I it dilutes the exclusivity somewhat and would make a range topping super "CGT V10 version of the 2Door panemera" just that little more unlikely...I think many customers who can afford such a car may be a little put off knowing there is an identical looking car with a 3.6Litre V6.

Keep in mind that exclusivity in a product as technically complex as a car is the enemy of quality, reliability and technical sophistication, since really exclusive cars cannot be sold in large enough numbers to amortize the massive up-front investments the manufacturer has to make (including design and testing).

yes but it doesn't stop ferrari from trying

besides the CGT engine should already have been through the qualtiy control and testing so it's really 'just' the other aspects of a true top of the range model that need to be developed. I think to say what you have said another way, at the end of the day it's just different priorities - a little more financial/shareholder considerations creeping into the equation making it difficult for a company like Porsche to justify relatively low volume (e.g F599/LP640 volume) cars. What does this focus mean for Porsche? probably long term shareholder value and market share, but it probably also means they will not be competing in some segments that I think they have the ability to top purely on the grounds of insufficient ROE. Just my 2cents.

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