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Re: Just a thought...
Current 997 Turbo engine:
-bulletproof design
-tuning friendly despite VTG
-excellent CO2 emissions but, only EU4 norm
-very expensive to build
-slower to build then forthcoming DFI engine
-true dry sump
-only possible with manual(Getrag) and TIP(MB), not suitable for PDK(ZF build)
-almost impossible to switch to DFI
-current SOTA in non DFI gasoline engines
Forthcoming FL 997 Turbo engine:
-DFI with turbo
-different power/torque tuning, truly NO turbo lag any more, torque curve much wider
-little bit more power then current engine
-very friendly for PDK and all networked engine system(much more then current engine)
-integrated dry sump with 4 pumps(if P. Gods are listening true dry sump is possible solution)
-amazing CO2 emissions, EU5 and lowest USA standards as well, less emissions then Audi S5 for example
-very cost friendly for P. since it is sharing parts with all new DFI family
-will use lower boost and higher compression ration for more power/torque
-will be very hard to tune(rumors say NO tuning any more)
-bulletproof design
-tuning friendly despite VTG
-excellent CO2 emissions but, only EU4 norm
-very expensive to build
-slower to build then forthcoming DFI engine
-true dry sump
-only possible with manual(Getrag) and TIP(MB), not suitable for PDK(ZF build)
-almost impossible to switch to DFI
-current SOTA in non DFI gasoline engines
Forthcoming FL 997 Turbo engine:
-DFI with turbo
-different power/torque tuning, truly NO turbo lag any more, torque curve much wider
-little bit more power then current engine
-very friendly for PDK and all networked engine system(much more then current engine)
-integrated dry sump with 4 pumps(if P. Gods are listening true dry sump is possible solution)
-amazing CO2 emissions, EU5 and lowest USA standards as well, less emissions then Audi S5 for example
-very cost friendly for P. since it is sharing parts with all new DFI family
-will use lower boost and higher compression ration for more power/torque
-will be very hard to tune(rumors say NO tuning any more)
Re: Just a thought...
For someone not tracking the car, this would be the most compelling reason to wait for the new engine... if the claim is true that is.
I remember PAG's claim that VTG technology reduces significantly turbo lag for my 997 Turbo. It's not true at all; there is a whole lot of lag going on below 3000.
I remember PAG's claim that VTG technology reduces significantly turbo lag for my 997 Turbo. It's not true at all; there is a whole lot of lag going on below 3000.
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Forthcoming FL 997 Turbo engine:
-different power/torque tuning, truly NO turbo lag any more, torque curve much wider
Re: Just a thought...
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Current 997 Turbo engine:
-bulletproof design
-tuning friendly despite VTG
-excellent CO2 emissions but, only EU4 norm
-very expensive to build
-slower to build then forthcoming DFI engine
-true dry sump
-only possible with manual(Getrag) and TIP(MB), not suitable for PDK(ZF build)
-almost impossible to switch to DFI
-current SOTA in non DFI gasoline engines
Forthcoming FL 997 Turbo engine:
-DFI with turbo
-different power/torque tuning, truly NO turbo lag any more, torque curve much wider
-little bit more power then current engine
-very friendly for PDK and all networked engine system(much more then current engine)
-integrated dry sump with 4 pumps(if P. Gods are listening true dry sump is possible solution)
-amazing CO2 emissions, EU5 and lowest USA standards as well, less emissions then Audi S5 for example
-very cost friendly for P. since it is sharing parts with all new DFI family
-will use lower boost and higher compression ration for more power/torque
-will be very hard to tune(rumors say NO tuning any more)
Excellent summary, Kreso.
One caveat: Similar to Thomas Wassabach's (head of FL 997 Carrera engine development) quote in the Chris Harris interview, that he conceded that DI could be implemented into the GT1 block/crankcase for the FL Turbo, I suspect that also PDK could be "friendly" and implemented into the GT1 block for the Turbo (and GT2 and GT3), rather than just in the new FL engine. Here again, marketing (and business operations management) trumps engineering.
For a tuning enthusiast like me, I wouldn't touch the FL engine dropped into a 911 Turbo with a ten-foot pole. What intrigues me is whether or not PAG will also use this setup in the GT2 and GT3.
Jul 7, 2008 3:24:06 AM
- TT Gasman
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Jul 7, 2008 4:36:04 AM
- Atzporsche
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Re: Just a thought...
Quote:
Turbo Al said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Current 997 Turbo engine:
-bulletproof design
-tuning friendly despite VTG
-excellent CO2 emissions but, only EU4 norm
-very expensive to build
-slower to build then forthcoming DFI engine
-true dry sump
-only possible with manual(Getrag) and TIP(MB), not suitable for PDK(ZF build)
-almost impossible to switch to DFI
-current SOTA in non DFI gasoline engines
Forthcoming FL 997 Turbo engine:
-DFI with turbo
-different power/torque tuning, truly NO turbo lag any more, torque curve much wider
-little bit more power then current engine
-very friendly for PDK and all networked engine system(much more then current engine)
-integrated dry sump with 4 pumps(if P. Gods are listening true dry sump is possible solution)
-amazing CO2 emissions, EU5 and lowest USA standards as well, less emissions then Audi S5 for example
-very cost friendly for P. since it is sharing parts with all new DFI family
-will use lower boost and higher compression ration for more power/torque
-will be very hard to tune(rumors say NO tuning any more)
That's pretty much my thoughts..
As for the tuning part, im sure there's going to be a way to tune the car! If not for HP (because really where's that's going to go. 1000+ HP?... NO!) Tuning will shift from the engine to other aspects of the car such as weight and suspension..
Jul 7, 2008 11:09:59 PM
- cibergypsy
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- Reply to: roadtrip
Re: Just a thought...
Quote:
roadtrip said:
they have a rich history of cutting the cajones off models... nows the perfect time, imo, with the full court hybrid press and greener is more marketable...diesel panamera in the wings...if youve ever wanted a real tt dont procrastinate
Roadtrip, I think you mean "cojones" which is Spanish slang for "testicles". "Cajones" just mean "big boxes" with no masculine appendage connotations. Take it from me, a Castilian speaker. Cheers!
Jul 8, 2008 12:17:59 AM
- MMD
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- Reply to: cibergypsy
Re: Just a thought...
Quote:
cibergypsy said:
Roadtrip, I think you mean "cojones" which is Spanish slang for "testicles". "Cajones" just mean "big boxes" with no masculine appendage connotations. Take it from me, a Castilian speaker. Cheers!
Then you have "Ramones" which defies definition but might or might not have to do with balls.
Jul 8, 2008 10:20:08 PM
- cibergypsy
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- Reply to: MMD
Re: Just a thought...
Quote:
MMD said:Quote:
cibergypsy said:
Roadtrip, I think you mean "cojones" which is Spanish slang for "testicles". "Cajones" just mean "big boxes" with no masculine appendage connotations. Take it from me, a Castilian speaker. Cheers!
Then you have "Ramones" which defies definition but might or might not have to do with balls.
"Ramones" to me is just plural for the proper name "Ramón". I guess they are all called Ramón?
Jul 10, 2008 9:12:27 PM
- Jim_in_Iowa
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Reply to:
Ron (Houston)
Re: Just a thought...
Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
If you recall they mentioned (Porsche.com) that they have a new oil pump system that is not dry-sump but something new also in the video clip that showed the whole engine was turning and twisting like crazy with no dry-sump pump.
At Parade I attended the PCNA technical presentation and can speak to the new oil pump situation. The new oil pump has two stages, a) full pressure (the default) and b) reduced pressure. It's controlled by a solenoid. The fail safe mode is full pressure. This is the same as for current units. What's different is the reduced pressure mode. They've found most of the time running the oil pump at 100% is wasteful, for both horsepower and efficiency. Going to the two stage pump gave them, IIRC, 2% more horsepower and reduced fuel consumption a bit, too. He also explained how they changed scavenge pump numbers and locations, but I wasn't taking notes so I'll not attempt to paraphrase him (it was 80 slides total).
Remember this new engine is nearly all new. They've reduced moving parts by 40%. The DFI heads are just icing on the cake, a lot of the efficiencies came from other optimizations. The entire intermediate shaft is gone, the cams are now driven from the crank via chains. It also has a lower center of gravity and lower mounting points.
Don't forget PAG is under pressure to reduce fuel consumption, increase power, and reduce carbon emissions all at the same time. It appears to be an impressive achievement, only time will tell.
Jul 11, 2008 5:50:23 AM
- fredb
- Junior
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- Reply to: Jim_in_Iowa
Re: Just a thought...
Quote:
Jim_in_Iowa said:
Don't forget PAG is under pressure to reduce fuel consumption, increase power, and reduce carbon emissions all at the same time. It appears to be an impressive achievement, only time will tell.
perfect overview of THE problem. Thanks for writing it.
Jul 11, 2008 12:22:01 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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- Reply to: Jim_in_Iowa
Re: Just a thought...
Quote:
Jim_in_Iowa said:Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
If you recall they mentioned (Porsche.com) that they have a new oil pump system that is not dry-sump but something new also in the video clip that showed the whole engine was turning and twisting like crazy with no dry-sump pump.
At Parade I attended the PCNA technical presentation and can speak to the new oil pump situation. The new oil pump has two stages, a) full pressure (the default) and b) reduced pressure. It's controlled by a solenoid. The fail safe mode is full pressure. This is the same as for current units. What's different is the reduced pressure mode. They've found most of the time running the oil pump at 100% is wasteful, for both horsepower and efficiency. Going to the two stage pump gave them, IIRC, 2% more horsepower and reduced fuel consumption a bit, too. He also explained how they changed scavenge pump numbers and locations, but I wasn't taking notes so I'll not attempt to paraphrase him (it was 80 slides total).
Remember this new engine is nearly all new. They've reduced moving parts by 40%. The DFI heads are just icing on the cake, a lot of the efficiencies came from other optimizations. The entire intermediate shaft is gone, the cams are now driven from the crank via chains. It also has a lower center of gravity and lower mounting points.
Don't forget PAG is under pressure to reduce fuel consumption, increase power, and reduce carbon emissions all at the same time. It appears to be an impressive achievement, only time will tell.
Great input, thanks Jim
Jul 11, 2008 1:40:45 PM
- RAKLAW
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: Just a thought...
I never even considered the fact that Porsche would develope a DFI engine both N/A & Turbo without imparting technology that would hopefully keep reliabilty and performance in tune with the cuurent status of the industry. In time, I am confident we will all be impressed with the new motor, and never look back. Thanks for your synopsis. It's comforting for those of us who are waiting to order the new model
Jul 11, 2008 1:49:26 PM
- Eric (Plug Guy)
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Re: Just a thought...
Are you going for MY10 (DFI) ? Your signature says 09 (old engine).
Yes..I told my dealer to push back my deposit until the MY10 is available..I am not at all concerned with the GT1 engine issue..I am excited about new technology with DFI and PDK After all Porsche knows what the competition has out there.
Jul 14, 2008 1:21:27 PM
- devo
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Re: Just a thought...
Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
I would be a little concerned about the first year out with such a new engine . . .
I might have some concern here as well, but I am not too worried. Although, it's a new block with no intermediate shaft and 40% fewer moving parts (if it mirrors the NA version), the new engine shares the basic layout of the old. I might consider it a refinement rather than all new.
Jul 14, 2008 1:54:10 PM
- RAKLAW
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Re: Just a thought...
Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
I would be a little concerned about the first year out with such a new engine . . .
Actually, no concern..I am confident once released the new motor will be reliable..If not well that's why there is a warranty, and also why I would never tune a hipo vehicle under warranty. Lets face it there is always a chance of getting a 07-09TT with an engine problem. I have purchased many new model/engine combinations over the years, and have never flinched at the "new model worries"
Re: Just a thought...
Quote:
MMD said:
Agreed. Not gonna be a problem with the first year editions of the engine.
Gonna be a problem with _all_ the engines after a few years.
Sorry bro, but that's really lame. You are purely speculating and likely speculating very wrong. Not to beat this issue any more dead than it has already been, but although POSSIBLY not as mod reliable, the new engine will likely be as reliable as the old if kept unmodded. Sorry, but I don't believe that the sky is falling.
Re: Just a thought...
Quote:
devo said:Quote:
MMD said:
Agreed. Not gonna be a problem with the first year editions of the engine.
Gonna be a problem with _all_ the engines after a few years.
Sorry bro, but that's really lame. You are purely speculating and likely speculating very wrong. Not to beat this issue any more dead than it has already been, but although POSSIBLY not as mod reliable, the new engine will likely be as reliable as the old if kept unmodded. Sorry, but I don't believe that the sky is falling.
No problem, I was being funny.
Nevertheless nobody knows the future.
However, judging from the past products get cheaper and less robust as buyers get less demanding, less informed and have lower expectations; natural "byproducts" as popularity and sales increase.
So..., it's safe to say that at least, right?
Jul 14, 2008 9:40:09 PM
- Silver Bullet
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Re: Just a thought...
"I have purchased many new model/engine combinations over the years, and have never flinched at the "new model worries"
That's what statistics are for. One's personal experience is often not large enough to approach "the truth".
Statistically speaking, it is well recognized that the first year our for anything new (an engine, an operating system, a medication) usually reveals bugs and design or manufacturing flaws that are later corrected, and that the frequency of these occurrences declines over time. The best part about this observation is that it fulfills a most basic BS test: it makes good sense.
While it is true that a warranty often covers these items, they can be tremendously frustrating.
That's what statistics are for. One's personal experience is often not large enough to approach "the truth".
Statistically speaking, it is well recognized that the first year our for anything new (an engine, an operating system, a medication) usually reveals bugs and design or manufacturing flaws that are later corrected, and that the frequency of these occurrences declines over time. The best part about this observation is that it fulfills a most basic BS test: it makes good sense.
While it is true that a warranty often covers these items, they can be tremendously frustrating.
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