Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Ring time revisited - Page1

Jun 23, 2008 3:05:36 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006

Ring time revisited

So I was reading up the new 997.2's ring times, a PDK Carrera S will do 7:50 and a manual one will do 7:58, the current one at 8:02.

So on paper the PDK is worth a massive 8 seconds, if applied to the 997 Turbo's 7:40, it means the Turbo will lap around 7:32 which is just behind the GT-R. With the GT-R in reality pushing out at the wheel what the 997 Turbo makes at the crank, around 10%-15% more power than the Turbo, the seemingly impossible 7:29 GT-R ring time started to make sense now.

Before the HvS nazis start crying foul about the 997 Turbo's ring times should be 7:50 not 7:40, I am comparing the best times a car can do. There is a 7:40 in the 997 Turbo but there isn't a 7:40 in HvS, his skill won't allow him to come close to WR in the 997 Turbo.

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Jun 23, 2008 6:12:24 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Ring time revisited

And Horst skills are so bad that he achieved 7.33min in 997 GT2. Your worship buddy Walter achieved 7.32min in 997 GT2.

BTW, ask Porsche marketing department or head of Porsche Press in Germany(formal AMS journalist) about 997 Turbo Ring time... You wont get 7.40min from them...

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Jun 23, 2008 8:51:04 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Ring time revisited

we've been down this road before, many times too.

I have speculated before, HvS is a good driver, but there are certain configurations that he is not as good, he many be able to drive a rwd rear engine car almost as fast as WR, but maybe he is unable to in a awd rear engine one. He can also be fast in a awd mid-engine car but he may not be as fast in a front engine fwd car. It's just natural to have limitations.

As I have said, I was only comparing absolute fast times, which normal will come from factory drivers who knows the cars inside and out, so it's natural to use Suzuki's time vs WR's time.

Seriously, I am not trashing HvS in order to 'worship' WR, it's just that WR IS a Porsche tester. Heck, if the comparison includes Ferrari, I would also dig up times by Dario Benuzzi or Michael Schumacher's. Same for Valentino Balboni's in Lambos.

I prefer to compare in absolute terms, but if I were to do relative comparisons, then HvS's time might be suffice if the car configurations are similar.

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Jun 23, 2008 4:11:21 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
we've been down this road before, many times too.

I have speculated before, HvS is a good driver, but there are certain configurations that he is not as good, he many be able to drive a rwd rear engine car almost as fast as WR, but maybe he is unable to in a awd rear engine one. He can also be fast in a awd mid-engine car but he may not be as fast in a front engine fwd car. It's just natural to have limitations.

As I have said, I was only comparing absolute fast times, which normal will come from factory drivers who knows the cars inside and out, so it's natural to use Suzuki's time vs WR's time.

Seriously, I am not trashing HvS in order to 'worship' WR, it's just that WR IS a Porsche tester. Heck, if the comparison includes Ferrari, I would also dig up times by Dario Benuzzi or Michael Schumacher's. Same for Valentino Balboni's in Lambos.

I prefer to compare in absolute terms, but if I were to do relative comparisons, then HvS's time might be suffice if the car configurations are similar.

Hmnn

seems to me someone else made this argument.

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Jun 23, 2008 6:12:53 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
we've been down this road before, many times too.

I have speculated before, HvS is a good driver, but there are certain configurations that he is not as good, he many be able to drive a rwd rear engine car almost as fast as WR, but maybe he is unable to in a awd rear engine one. He can also be fast in a awd mid-engine car but he may not be as fast in a front engine fwd car. It's just natural to have limitations.

As I have said, I was only comparing absolute fast times, which normal will come from factory drivers who knows the cars inside and out, so it's natural to use Suzuki's time vs WR's time.

Seriously, I am not trashing HvS in order to 'worship' WR, it's just that WR IS a Porsche tester. Heck, if the comparison includes Ferrari, I would also dig up times by Dario Benuzzi or Michael Schumacher's. Same for Valentino Balboni's in Lambos.

I prefer to compare in absolute terms, but if I were to do relative comparisons, then HvS's time might be suffice if the car configurations are similar.

You say yourself above that you are speculating and pepper your post with the words "maybe" and "may", but still manage to leave the uncritical reader with the impression that it is a well-founded fact that Horst von Saurma is only ever really fast in rear-engined cars.

This is already leading Nick to delude himself into thinking that the fact that you are also repeating arguments that he has repeated ad nauseum here in the past then they must have some merit.

Why don't you simply do as you yourself suggested and dig up directly comparable times for the Ferrari and Lambo works' drivers you mentioned to support your speculation about von Saurma's driving abilities. The ensuing discussion might then not be quite as pointless as is so often the case when when this dead horse gets flogged all over again.

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Jun 23, 2008 9:41:23 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: Ring time revisited

Fritz if you believe a good driver can drive any car at its maximum limit then you believe in the tooth fairy. It is human nature that people are better in certain environments than others. That is the way it is.

For an example who is to say that HvS couldn't improve his time at the Ring if the Scud was a manual?

Odds are he wouldn't be faster but his comfort level would be higher. MOST of the high performance cars he drives are manual.

His familiarity with Porsche's is not in dispute. Familiarity breeds smoothness. Smoothness is the hallmark of speed. I have no doubt that WR can drive the Ring faster than MS in a Porsche. Do you see the point or is your engineering mind focused only on black and white?

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Jun 23, 2008 11:26:52 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
So I was reading up the new 997.2's ring times, a PDK Carrera S will do 7:50 and a manual one will do 7:58, the current one at 8:02.

So on paper the PDK is worth a massive 8 seconds.

You need to be aware that the 7:50 time of the 997S with PDK is with "Sport" tires (MPSC) and time of 7:58 with manual is with street tires. So, the PDk is worth virtually nothing in laptime advantage...

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Jun 24, 2008 5:54:10 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: Grant

Re: Ring time revisited

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=127326

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080619.002/new-porsche-911-facelift-is-faster-round-the-ring-with-pdk

I'm sorry, but I think I must be blind, I do not recall seeing anywhere in the 2 articles that the 997.2 manual wears the regular tires. It did mentioned that the PDK one is equipped with 'sports tires' and one must assume the other 2 cars there are similarly equipped. To say otherwise is just pure speculation.

P.S. As much as I have tried, I cannot find HvS's times at Fiorano, I guess Ferrari never invited him to drive around Fiorano, but I did find out that Dario is even faster around Fiorano than Michael Schumacher.

Why does almost everyone here worship HvS to the point of being fanatic? To a point where even the slightest mere suggestion that he may not be the fastest driver garner the wraith of god.

HvS IS a very good driver, but he cannot possibly excel at ALL the different car configurations, just like Beckham is a world class midfielder, but he will not be as good playing as a forward or a defender. Even so, he is still a world class soccer player.

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Jun 24, 2008 6:00:51 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Ring time revisited

At times I do find Nick's views are absolutely horrendous, but this time I am with Nick and I think the rennteam community needs to take a little step back and think:

Is it still a valid arguement about keeping to HvS times as standard because it minimizes the 'variables'.

To quite a few here, HvS IS the variable, because simply he cannot possibly excel at ALL car configurations.

If after careful considerations, the HvS times are the bible still stands, I think the board has really gone the fanatic route.

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Jun 24, 2008 6:19:54 AM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Ring time revisited

From a statistically meaningful viewpoint, how do you compare times if you don't keep all variables constant, except for the one that you are interested in? For example, you want to know the effect of a set of tires? Have the same driver using the same vehicle on the same day drive on set X. Followed by set Y. You don't switch drivers while you go from X to Y.

If you want to know how difficult a golf course plays, you don't want to have the club pro play on it (since he plays the course more often than any other pro and knows every square inch of the course) and compare that score with what Tiger Woods shoots at Torrey Pines during the U.S. Open? Wouldn't you want to know the four-round total at all courses, during normal dry conditions, by the same quality golfer, regardless of who that golfer is?

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Jun 24, 2008 12:39:20 PM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: Ring time revisited

Those are VERY valid points Alan. Let's hear what I have to say next. (This is good, the thread is still a civilized debate)

Can I get everyone to agree that in order to get the best out of a car, familiarity to the car is a must.

To continue that argument, it's safe to assume that factory drivers are most familiar with their brand of cars. So it's also safe to assume their times are almost the very best times a car can produced.

With that, can it be assumed that the factory driver is NOT the limiting factor on how fast a car is?

When members here take the Sport Auto route, the first assumption made is that HvS is equally proficient at EVERY car configurations. Is that a true statement? Or will he be faster in certain configs and slower in others?

If the later is true, then HvS himself will be the variable and be the limiting factor, not the car.

On paper the one driver option is the better one in order to keep most of the variables constant, but in reality, the varying factory drivers factor have been taken out of the equation because they can get the very best out of their cars, leaving only the cars and their abilities as the only variable.

My own counterpoint : Since a lot of members here mistrust factory claims, they think a independent driver like HvS is a good enough indicator to judge relative numbers. I can totally take that. But can the reverse be true too or the alternate theories has to be strike down without prejudice?

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Jun 24, 2008 12:59:38 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8235, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
When members here take the Sport Auto route, the first assumption made is that HvS is equally proficient at EVERY car configurations. Is that a true statement? Or will he be faster in certain configs and slower in others?

If the later is true, then HvS himself will be the variable and be the limiting factor, not the car.

That's a reasonable thought but is far too abstract for my taste. If a car lacks feedback or shows an unpredictable handling at the limit, every driver will experience this. A factory driver might just overcome these shortcomings due to skill and routine, however an amateur driver might suffer at this particular point.

The test procedure that HvS goes through in these particular tests and these criteria for evaluation are precisely what an owner would be looking for on a car.

This magazine's tests are only criticized once an owner is not happy with the results, however his comments do not come out of the blue. The only critique I could immediately find is the fact certain (expensive) brands are overrepresented in the SuperTest procedure (BMW, MB, Ferrari, Porsche).

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Jun 24, 2008 1:43:41 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=127326

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080619.002/new-porsche-911-facelift-is-faster-round-the-ring-with-pdk

I'm sorry, but I think I must be blind, I do not recall seeing anywhere in the 2 articles that the 997.2 manual wears the regular tires. It did mentioned that the PDK one is equipped with 'sports tires' and one must assume the other 2 cars there are similarly equipped. To say otherwise is just pure speculation.

I'm the one who is interpreting the description of the cars literally and you are the one "speculating" that all three cars had Sport tires when the article clearly only describes the PDK car as having Sport tires...

Porsche factory times are made with OEM tires. So, if the factory claims "Sport" tires on one of the cars, it had the optional factory sport tires (a variation of the MPSC or Pirelli Corsa which is standard on GT3 and optional on other models) and if it doesn't say Sport tires, then it's fair to assume PS2 or another OEM Porsche supplier (as the cars are delivered to customers when new).

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Jun 24, 2008 1:43:50 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Ferdie said:
The test procedure that HvS goes through in these particular tests and these criteria for evaluation are precisely what an owner would be looking for on a car.

...and that's exactly the intention of the Supertest.
I'm under the impression that a lot of people are too much focussed (some even obsessed..) on the raw numbers (especially NoS laptimes): it's not a race and HvS's mission is not to set a new Ring record when testing the cars... and I'm sure he builds in a (small) safety margin when driving at NoS (not good for the insurance record nor for the reputation if he totals one of the 200k toys).

IMO it's utter nonsense to state that car X IS 5 sec. faster than car Y because the Supertest has proved it.

A more reasonable conclusion would be that both cars are playing in the same league.

Those laptimes are a very good indicator in which league a car plays - nothing more, nothing less. The dogfights about these laptimes in the virtual world are entertainment at best

Imagine the concept of the Supertest like follows (simplified): excellent driver gets a new car (which he actually is NOT very familiar with - absolutely no comparison with a factory test driver indeed) and has a spirited test ride on his favourite road (closed for the public

). That's basically the concept. Of course the fact that the road is NoS and the fact that HvS is a fast driver compared to the normal buyers of the tested cars (but not the fastest one on earth) may trigger some funny discussions between the owners of car X and car Y

And as it actually is the Super T E S T (not the Super R A C E) it is (at least for me) even more interesting to read HvS's comments about the car's handling characteristics and how it behaves close to the limit rather than to speculate whether a factory driver might have extracted a couple of seconds more..

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Jun 24, 2008 2:13:24 PM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Ferdie said:

That's a reasonable thought but is far too abstract for my taste. If a car lacks feedback or shows an unpredictable handling at the limit, every driver will experience this. A factory driver might just overcome these shortcomings due to skill and routine, however an amateur driver might suffer at this particular point.

The test procedure that HvS goes through in these particular tests and these criteria for evaluation are precisely what an owner would be looking for on a car.

This magazine's tests are only criticized once an owner is not happy with the results, however his comments do not come out of the blue. The only critique I could immediately find is the fact certain (expensive) brands are overrepresented in the SuperTest procedure (BMW, MB, Ferrari, Porsche).

After the last go-around with Markus, I went back and study more on HvS and his supertest, I accept that his tests are a good quick and dirty way to compare cars to see how they do in the hands of normal pros and good amateurs, and he also gives real world feedbacks on the handling too.

I guess my and a few others here's pov is comparing cars on absolute times, and without the driver being the limiting factor, it's almost robotic but mostly it's just academic and more for bench racing.

After owning the TT for almost 2 years, I could care less what is faster or what time it posts. Anything faster than it is pointless on public roads and even the 997TT is already over the top, at least in North America. As a matter of fact, I am considering getting the improved Vantage, something slower but something that's different.

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Jun 24, 2008 2:19:21 PM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: Grant

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
Whoopsy said:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=127326

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080619.002/new-porsche-911-facelift-is-faster-round-the-ring-with-pdk

I'm sorry, but I think I must be blind, I do not recall seeing anywhere in the 2 articles that the 997.2 manual wears the regular tires. It did mentioned that the PDK one is equipped with 'sports tires' and one must assume the other 2 cars there are similarly equipped. To say otherwise is just pure speculation.

I'm the one who is interpreting the description of the cars literally and you are the one "speculating" that all three cars had Sport tires when the article clearly only describes the PDK car as having Sport tires...

Porsche factory times are made with OEM tires. So, if the factory claims "Sport" tires on one of the cars, it had the optional factory sport tires (a variation of the MPSC or Pirelli Corsa which is standard on GT3 and optional on other models) and if it doesn't say Sport tires, then it's fair to assume PS2 or another OEM Porsche supplier (as the cars are delivered to customers when new).

Glass half empty or glass half full

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Jun 24, 2008 5:14:47 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
P.S. As much as I have tried, I cannot find HvS's times at Fiorano, I guess Ferrari never invited him to drive around Fiorano, but I did find out that Dario is even faster around Fiorano than Michael Schumacher.

Why does almost everyone here worship HvS to the point of being fanatic? To a point where even the slightest mere suggestion that he may not be the fastest driver garner the wraith of god.

HvS IS a very good driver, but he cannot possibly excel at ALL the different car configurations.........

I was being mischievous when I suggested in my post that you find lap times for the relevant Ferrari and Lambo works' drivers which are directly comparable (same car model, same track, similar conditions) to von Saurma's, as a basis for assessing the latter's driving skills. I was 99% certain you wouldn't find any, because the lap times of those other drivers are not generally published.

Which is the whole point of using von Saurma's Nürburgring and Hockenheim Short Circuit lap times as one benchmark for comparing high performance street-legal cars. They are the best we have available to us.

The Sport Auto Supertest results are the best source of comparison figures available because they are at least consistently achieved at the same circuits and by the same named driver, leaving the car as the remaining variable in the equation. These Supertest results are available for most of the car models likely to interest sportscar enthusiasts. No other magazine or body has to date published lap times with the consistency which allows them to be recognized or used as any kind of benchmark, or "Bible", as you expressed it.

The claim to the effect that von Saurma is not capable of getting really good lap times out of any car which is either (a) not rear-engined or (b) not made in Germany (depending on the particular prejudice of the posters concerned

) has yet to be backed up with any verifiable figures, which has not stopped some people from repeating it ad nauseam as if it were an acknowledged fact. This is borne out by your statement that you could find no basis for direct comparison between von Saurma and Schumacher et al.

To think that people here "worship" von Saurma is to miss the point altogether. He is just an instrument in this matter, not an idol. No one needs to defend him here, since the onus is on those who doubt the validity of his test results to demonstrate that they are not reliable.

The fact that your post prompted a reaction (which, incidentally, could hardly qualify for being classed as the Wrath of God

) can be put down to the fact that you blithely repeated a viewpoint which has been expressed here so many times before, only to be followed by futile p!ssing contests. If you really believe that viewpoint, then I for one would be mildly interested in reading any logic-based arguments for it.

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Jun 24, 2008 5:29:48 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
Whoopsy said:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=127326

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080619.002/new-porsche-911-facelift-is-faster-round-the-ring-with-pdk

I'm sorry, but I think I must be blind, I do not recall seeing anywhere in the 2 articles that the 997.2 manual wears the regular tires. It did mentioned that the PDK one is equipped with 'sports tires' and one must assume the other 2 cars there are similarly equipped. To say otherwise is just pure speculation.

I'm the one who is interpreting the description of the cars literally and you are the one "speculating" that all three cars had Sport tires when the article clearly only describes the PDK car as having Sport tires...

Porsche factory times are made with OEM tires. So, if the factory claims "Sport" tires on one of the cars, it had the optional factory sport tires (a variation of the MPSC or Pirelli Corsa which is standard on GT3 and optional on other models) and if it doesn't say Sport tires, then it's fair to assume PS2 or another OEM Porsche supplier (as the cars are delivered to customers when new).

Glass half empty or glass half full

I think we're both seeing it as half-full, since you want to believe PDK saves 8 sec around the Ring and I'd like to believe that I'm missing nothing by choosing the more entertaining manual

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Jun 24, 2008 7:37:58 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8235, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
I'm under the impression that a lot of people are too much focussed (some even obsessed..) on the raw numbers (especially NoS laptimes): it's not a race and HvS's mission is not to set a new Ring record when testing the cars...

Of course, I agree with you. I wonder why people keep bringing up these topics instead of driving... or better, improving their driving.

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Jun 24, 2008 7:44:04 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8235, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
I accept that his tests are a good quick and dirty way to compare cars to see how they do in the hands of normal pros and good amateurs, and he also gives real world feedbacks on the handling too.

They are more than that, in fact the whole procedure (incl. acceleration, braking, handling tests and commutes to the tracks) are done on one set of tires. If one realizes the advantages a factory driver receives than the difference to SA's laptimes are diminishing.

On a sidenote, another German magazine tested the BMW 135i vs. the Cayman S, an experienced and capable journalist at the wheel. His laptimes was seven seconds slower than v. Saurmas so what does that say?

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
I could care less what is faster or what time it posts.

In that case, what's the reason for this discussion?

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Jun 24, 2008 7:46:30 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8235, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: Ring time revisited

Fritz,

that must have been your most elaborate posts on this forum.

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Jun 24, 2008 7:57:06 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
So I was reading up the new 997.2's ring times, a PDK Carrera S will do 7:50 and a manual one will do 7:58, the current one at 8:02.

So on paper the PDK is worth a massive 8 seconds, if applied to the 997 Turbo's 7:40, it means the Turbo will lap around 7:32 which is just behind the GT-R. With the GT-R in reality pushing out at the wheel what the 997 Turbo makes at the crank, around 10%-15% more power than the Turbo, the seemingly impossible 7:29 GT-R ring time started to make sense now.

Before the HvS nazis start crying foul about the 997 Turbo's ring times should be 7:50 not 7:40, I am comparing the best times a car can do. There is a 7:40 in the 997 Turbo but there isn't a 7:40 in HvS, his skill won't allow him to come close to WR in the 997 Turbo.

May I suggest to wait for the next edition of SportAuto in the first place...? This issue will include the Supertest of 997s with PDK and will provided us with reasonable NBR data for that car. The Porsche press claims are not what I would rather use as a basis for an educated discussion...

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Jun 24, 2008 8:16:28 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
Ferdie said:
Fritz,

that must have been your most elaborate posts on this forum.

Ferdie,

I do hope that you meant "elaborate" as in "sorgfältig ausgearbeitet"

, and not as in "umständlich" or "kompliziert"

? (Alternatives offered by my dictionary).

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Jun 25, 2008 3:29:55 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: Ring time revisited

"Which is the whole point of using von Saurma's Nürburgring and Hockenheim Short Circuit lap times as one benchmark for comparing high performance street-legal cars. They are the best we have available to us."

Fritz, I would agree if all the cars he tested were of a similar configuration. For an example, his times comparing the GT2, gt3 and tt would be a benchmark for Porsche's. However, once you mix amd match various cars forget about it. He cannot possible maximize the performance of the different cars and their unique handling characteristics. His test in those instances are nothing more of passing interest and sells a lot of magazines to European public.

If they truly wanted an accurate test, they would allow a factory driver make the run after a comprehensive inspection by SportAuto which apparently happened with the GT-R.

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Jun 25, 2008 4:22:20 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
nberry said:
"Which is the whole point of using von Saurma's Nürburgring and Hockenheim Short Circuit lap times as one benchmark for comparing high performance street-legal cars. They are the best we have available to us."

Fritz, I would agree if all the cars he tested were of a similar configuration. For an example, his times comparing the GT2, gt3 and tt would be a benchmark for Porsche's. However, once you mix amd match various cars forget about it. He cannot possible maximize the performance of the different cars and their unique handling characteristics.

a) Why should we immediately just "forget about it", unless we have credible, verifiable information to indicate that von Saurma's driving skills are specific to Porsche rear-wheel drive models, and suddenly magically desert him as soon as he gets into mid-engined car or front-engined car.
I cannot totally rule out that he may be less happy in front-engined cars and therefore less able to get the best about them, but if this were the case I would expect someone to have come up with some kind of concrete information indicating this. All we have heard so far have been statements to this effect cited as if it were an established fact, but without any supporting evidence. Generally from yourself, I might add

.
b) The basic value of a car test report is to provide either potential buyers or just interested enthusiasts with balanced information on the abilities of the car concerned. A Nürburgring lap-time is just one facet of this information, but obviously one which is even more hotly debated than the use of LEDs in taillights or puddles for gear-shifting. You are not seriously telling us that von Saurma's driving abilities deteriorate so much when he gets into a car built in Italy, for instance, that we have to totally disregard his results?

If those cars "unique handling characteristics" (your words) were to have this effect on von Saurma, then I think a lot potential buyers would be all the more interested in hearing about it because it could reflect on their own ability to cope with those handling characteristics. I hasten to add that I personally do not support this view.

Quote:
nberry said:His test in those instances are nothing more of passing interest and sells a lot of magazines to European public.

I know I am repeating myself, but if someone is interested in comparing such data - and some people apparently are - Sport Auto's Supertest results just offer the best data base out there.

Quote:
nberry said:If they truly wanted an accurate test, they would allow a factory driver make the run after a comprehensive inspection by SportAuto which apparently happened with the GT-R.

Don't know where you got this from, Nick, but going by past form I suspect that you've just mixed up a few facts.
The information that I read was that a journalist from Auto, Motor und Sport (not Sport Auto) attended at the Nürburgring when Suzuki made his fast run with the GTR. I don't know how comprehensive any inspection he made of the car might have been, but FWIW seriously doubt that he would have been in a position to confirm that engine power output, damper settings and a few other relevant features of the car were necessarily identical to series specs.
After the event, Sport Auto wrote a brief article on the event and specifically attributed the information they printed to Nissan.

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Jun 25, 2008 11:14:10 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: Ring time revisited

First, you may be right in indicating that Sport and not SportAuto confirmed the results og the GT-R. I did not know there was a difference.

You state" You are not seriously telling us that von Saurma's driving abilities deteriorate so much when he gets into a car built in Italy, for instance, that we have to totally disregard his results? If those cars "unique handling characteristics" (your words) were to have this effect on von Saurma, then I think a lot potential buyers would be all the more interested in hearing about it because it could reflect on their own ability to cope with those handling characteristics. I hasten to add that I personally do not support this view.

No one is stating that HvS driving abilities deteriorate when driving an Italian, US or Japanese car. What I am stating that he his comfort level is better in German cars which happen to be rear drive and manual. His skills have been honed on these type of cars and the new generation of performance cars are not at least for now "his cup of tea". Different transmission, suspension braking and throttle responses. The data supports this view given his poor performances when driving these cars.

Finally, if a Ferrari is driven by MS, a factory driver and HvS, which performance numbers would you look to in determining the performance of the car? Certainly not HvS.

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Jun 26, 2008 1:53:36 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Ring time revisited

Quote:
MKSGR said:
Quote:
Whoopsy said:
So I was reading up the new 997.2's ring times, a PDK Carrera S will do 7:50 and a manual one will do 7:58, the current one at 8:02.

So on paper the PDK is worth a massive 8 seconds, if applied to the 997 Turbo's 7:40, it means the Turbo will lap around 7:32 which is just behind the GT-R. With the GT-R in reality pushing out at the wheel what the 997 Turbo makes at the crank, around 10%-15% more power than the Turbo, the seemingly impossible 7:29 GT-R ring time started to make sense now.

Before the HvS nazis start crying foul about the 997 Turbo's ring times should be 7:50 not 7:40, I am comparing the best times a car can do. There is a 7:40 in the 997 Turbo but there isn't a 7:40 in HvS, his skill won't allow him to come close to WR in the 997 Turbo.

May I suggest to wait for the next edition of SportAuto in the first place...? This issue will include the Supertest of 997s with PDK and will provided us with reasonable NBR data for that car. The Porsche press claims are not what I would rather use as a basis for an educated discussion...

A green Markus now, I guess all I can say is yes sir and not go into an argument with you then

I have to admit, it will be interesting to see HvS's times.

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Jun 26, 2008 2:31:23 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Ring time revisited

Supertest only represent HvS's times, what if someone else come and start another list, say Sabine Schmidt, and her list is completely different than HvS's, but she test them like how HvS do it.

Maybe her list has the M5 on top of almost everything else, whose list one is gonna go by?

Now both lists are done by pros, and both have accomplished backgrounds, whose list is gonna be more believable, and what makes one list more credible than the other and on what basis?

Now what if a amateur came and do another list, this time it has say a EVO X faster than a Carrera GT, does that really mean the CGT is slower than a EVO X? Or his list is immediately thrown out be cause he is a amateur? But maybe his list is more relevant because he is a amateur just like most of us here? His times are more real world than even HvS because he is not a pro?

Does anyone see the disadvantage of having one person do a list? That list is only meaningful to that one person alone.

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