Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes - Page1

Jun 19, 2008 5:01:01 AM

joe pruskowski: Newbie; Loc: Washington State, USA; Posts: 18, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 8, 2002

PCCB vs. metal brakes

I am considering spec'ing PCCB on a new 911 C2S and am interested in feedback anyone has about the "feel" of the brakes. I have heard from a local stereo installer than several people have PCCB and regret it - claiming they are too "touchy". I was wondering what the experience of the people on this board has been? Any downsides, other than price? Any upsides that aren't obvious?

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Jun 19, 2008 8:12:39 AM

MarekN: Pilot; Loc: Czech Republic; Posts: 409, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 7, 2006; Reply to: joe pruskowski

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

I find it is exactly the opposite. The softer the brakes you have, the touchier they will be. With PCCB, which is a harder-than-rock rotor (one wants to say rock-hard, but that would be underestimating it) and similar pads to match, the brakes are much better warm than cold. Also, in a Porsche, even the iron brakes are set up in a way which asks for a fairly hard push before you get retardation. In a sports car, that is what you want, right? Modulation, control and all that.

To sum up many other aspects of PCCB, it is the system to go for if you don't mind the extra price.

The feel is superb, but different to irons, that is definitely so. Touchy it isn't, don't worry about that.

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Jun 19, 2008 10:12:33 AM

K1: Newbie; Loc: New Zealand , New Zealand; Posts: 43, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 4, 2008; Reply to: MarekN

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

I just love my PCCB - I would not hesitate to spec them on any car

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Jun 19, 2008 10:22:47 AM

sws1: Junior; Loc: USA; Posts: 83, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 2, 2006; Reply to: K1

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

I find them to have a high initial bite, but after that, they can be modulated very well.

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Jun 19, 2008 10:39:43 AM

crg: Junior; Loc: sub. chicago; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2005; Reply to: sws1

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

and no brake dust

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Jun 19, 2008 12:15:35 PM

matdaytona: Junior; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 126, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 20, 2006; Reply to: crg

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

PCCBs are perfect. The feeling is really good, powerful and easy to module.

If you don't mind the price go for them, they are worth it !

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Jun 19, 2008 12:48:08 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: matdaytona

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

I have found the PCCB's to have more initial bite than iron, but they feel very reassuring and easy to modulate beyond the first bit of pedal travel.

For comparison, try a new BMW 135i. They have huge initial bite and have far too much servo assistance throughout their travel (nearly impossible to modulate - like an on/off switch). PCCB is not like this at all...

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Jun 19, 2008 12:54:23 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59609, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: joe pruskowski

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
joe pruskowski said:
I am considering spec'ing PCCB on a new 911 C2S and am interested in feedback anyone has about the "feel" of the brakes. I have heard from a local stereo installer than several people have PCCB and regret it - claiming they are too "touchy". I was wondering what the experience of the people on this board has been? Any downsides, other than price? Any upsides that aren't obvious?

I'm glad I ordered PCCB on my 997 Turbo, wouldn't like to drive a 911 without it. My first 997 Carrera 2 had them too, they were a bit noisier but still great.

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Jun 19, 2008 12:56:35 PM

joe pruskowski: Newbie; Loc: Washington State, USA; Posts: 18, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 8, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Everyone - thanks for the information. It seems when people describe PCCB brakes being "touchy", they are referring to the initial bite which makes sense. The fact that they have good modulation is important for me - I currently have an SL55 which is very poor in this area (it's servo assisted).

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Jun 19, 2008 1:04:11 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8235, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: joe pruskowski

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
joe pruskowski said:
I currently have an SL55 which is very poor in this area (it's servo assisted).

Well, virtually every modern car has servoassisted brakes but I assume you refer to the SBC system used in the SL and intermittendly in the E-class. There is no comparison between your previous car's and the 911's brakes.
There is, in my eyes, no simple answer to this subject, if you are willing to pay the premium for the PCCB you will get the above mentioned benefits, especially the superior modulation and lack of brake dust. However one does not need them on the regular cars since performance is more or less limited by the tires and not the brakes.

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Jun 19, 2008 1:46:53 PM

Mikla: Veteran; Loc: Spain , Spain; Posts: 1009, Gallery; Registered on: May 9, 2004; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

I cannot tell you how happy I am with the PCCB in my Turbo. The feel is amazing, they give you total control. Go for it if you can afford.

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Jun 19, 2008 1:53:07 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Bluntly stated considerations (my us$.02):

Massive 13.8 inch vented and perforated 6 piston (4 in rear) monoblock caliper stock brakes never let me down, disappointed nor failed to impress me during my frisky driving on public roads.

You can not carry a spare because it won't fit over larger PCCB rotor; no spare makes your car less reliable by definition.

Apparently (?) you have to be a little cautious when conditions become wet. Lowers your safety margin if only for a few moments of initial application if they become wet after long period of disuse.

Extra money for PCCB will increase your track performance.

Red and yellow are both annoying "look-at-my-ugly-calipers" colors, maybe choose the one which blends in better with your exterior body color choice.

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Jun 19, 2008 2:25:23 PM

JAG007: Junior; Loc: London, UK; Posts: 104, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 16, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

What do you intend to do with your car, I do not believe you will find the steels wanting unless you track it.

Tracked my car on steels, uprated steels and another 997S with PCCBs. The most important element which I feel some people might have forgotten to mention is the variation in feel from cold to warm to "cooked".

Bottom line for me:
1- I cooked my own brake pads twice, once the standard ones, the other Pagids R42s. Feel was good, but once they start going, forget it.
2- Uprated Pagids R29: good for the track BUT not for the road (noisy), but already yesterday the pedal was sinking deeper, so feel very good when warm, but somewhat wayward in the afternoon (this is the 1st time it happened in 4 sessions). As to the actual reason, uncertain as of yet.
3- PCCBs: spend 1 afternoon in Leipzig using them to the max, no difference in feel. I did not cook them as well, so all in all, I would definitely spec them on my next car.

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Jun 19, 2008 2:42:05 PM

Leawood911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Kansas, USA , United States; Posts: 6924, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 29, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
MMD said:
Bluntly stated considerations (my us$.02):

Massive 13.8 inch vented and perforated 6 piston (4 in rear) monoblock caliper stock brakes never let me down, disappointed nor failed to impress me during my frisky driving on public roads.

You can not carry a spare because it won't fit over larger PCCB rotor; no spare makes your car less reliable by definition.

Apparently (?) you have to be a little cautious when conditions become wet. Lowers your safety margin if only for a few moments of initial application if they become wet after long period of disuse.

Extra money for PCCB will increase your track performance.

Red and yellow are both annoying "look-at-my-ugly-calipers" colors, maybe choose the one which blends in better with your exterior body color choice.

MMD, you are simply wrong about the ability to have a spare tire fit. I have PCCB and I go on MANY long road trips - never without a spare - would you like pictures of my car with a spare on it rolling down the road? The GT3 PCCB are a bit bigger so I will reserve comment on those but for my 997S PCCB and spare tire is not an issue. BTW I am using the spare from a 03 996 - the tall skinny one that does not need to be inflated. It fits perfectly in the front trunk. Of course if you have a flat it will need to go in the backseat so bring a big trashbag. The peace of mind is priceless when you are on a 6K mile roadtrip and have a spare tire.

PCCB is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I have over 50K miles on mine and they look as new - no pad wear yet according to the dealer doing the service. No Dust, no noises, no fading. The only thing is - and this applies to all types - no brakes after leaving the carwash until you really step into it.
Cheers,

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Jun 19, 2008 2:49:20 PM

Bluehinder: Junior; Loc: Colorado; Posts: 134, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 18, 2007; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

I've had three sets of them, and now have them on my GT3RS. I love them in all ways, but I would not order them on a C2S, not cost effective. On a $140K car, yes, but not a a regular 911. Stock brakes plenty good for street driving.

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Jun 19, 2008 2:54:33 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

PCCB- Best option on my car by far.

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Jun 19, 2008 4:07:22 PM

rantanplan: Pilot; Loc: Stuttgart , Germany; Posts: 355, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 7, 2006; Reply to: crg

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
crg said:
and no brake dust

no brake dust??? maybe not as much as steel brakes but there is still plenty of break dust! especialliy after the track...

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Jun 19, 2008 4:09:06 PM

ResB: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Yorkshire, where roads are twisty... , United Kingdom; Posts: 2858, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 19, 2006; Reply to: Bluehinder

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
Bluehinder said:
I've had three sets of them, and now have them on my GT3RS. I love them in all ways, but I would not order them on a C2S, not cost effective. On a $140K car, yes, but not a a regular 911. Stock brakes plenty good for street driving.

Agree completely. You'll not get your money back..

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Jun 19, 2008 4:11:30 PM

BMCG: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 230, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 28, 2003; Reply to: ResB

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

PCCB's vs Irons.

If you're tracking then Irons...if you're not and like the shiny yellow calipers..then PCCBs.

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Jun 19, 2008 4:15:36 PM

rantanplan: Pilot; Loc: Stuttgart , Germany; Posts: 355, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 7, 2006; Reply to: joe pruskowski

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
joe pruskowski said:
I am considering spec'ing PCCB on a new 911 C2S and am interested in feedback anyone has about the "feel" of the brakes. I have heard from a local stereo installer than several people have PCCB and regret it - claiming they are too "touchy". I was wondering what the experience of the people on this board has been? Any downsides, other than price? Any upsides that aren't obvious?

i have to say i am amazed by the performance of my PCCBs. i have tracked my car numerous times now and for instance last weekend i was out with the Porsche Club at Hockenheim and I went for 16 consecutive laps on the F1 GP course full power and there was not even a slight feel of fading! they are just amazing!
However, one important fact is that if you should have to replace the rotors at some point, which might happen after X km of hard track driving it will cost you EUR 12000 to replace only the four rotors!!!
mine are still in very good shape but the rear pads are finished now after 7600km...
in conclusion, they are more than stunning but def cost intensive!

side info: carrera PCCB front rotors 350mm
GT3 & Turbo PCCB front rotors 380mm

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Jun 19, 2008 4:23:47 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
Leawood911 said:

MMD, you are simply wrong about the ability to have a spare tire fit.

Good! No problem.

Thanks for correcting me. I'm glad you guys can carry a spare.

I remember a longish thread saying they were too big for a spare and must have locked it into my memory incorrectly.

AWWGGGGH! Wait a minute! I'm sorry for the confusion I may have caused. Guys with _Turbos_ can NOT fit the spare over the TT's PCCBS.

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Jun 19, 2008 5:28:35 PM

intouch1: Rennteam Master; Loc: Red Sea , Egypt; Posts: 5754, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2004; Reply to: rantanplan

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

pccb stop like crazy. pedal fel is stiff compared to red brakes. stopping power for road is more than good enough on the red brakes.

i got almost just as much brake dust with my pccb's as with my turbo brakes.

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Jun 19, 2008 5:32:18 PM

JoeRockhead: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Topside , Monaco; Posts: 8033, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 17, 2007; Reply to: intouch1

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

It's hard to believe cars even stopped before PPCB's became an option.

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Jun 19, 2008 5:46:21 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: JoeRockhead

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:
JoeRockhead said:
It's hard to believe cars even stopped before PPCB's became an option.

HeeHeeHee! There go those pesky human minds again... .

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Jun 21, 2008 5:22:28 PM

fiske: Newbie; Loc: TX; Posts: 3, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 7, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

So, what's the verdict on PCCBs for hard track driving w/ a 2S (and I'm thinking of an '09, just got rid of my '05 at end of lease)? In particular, I'd love to hear about the experience of someone who was traditionally hard on steel brakes (read frequent pad and rotor replacements) who has gone on to aggressively track a car w/ PCCBs. I'm confident that they will perform better, that the lower unsprung weight will be a benefit, and I think I can get comfortable with the initial cost, but if I have to shell out for new rotors even 1/2 as often as I go through steel ones I don't think I'll be very psyched. The idea of getting the PCCBs and removing the ceramic rotors and replacing w/ steel also doesn't seem like a great idea to me from a cost / benefit perspective.

Thanks

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Jun 21, 2008 6:39:29 PM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: fiske

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

As a long time Porsche owner I have been amazed to hear about how often people are forced to replace their rotors (front) on 911s of today. I drove literally 100,000 miles on a couple of 911s and never had to replace the iron rotors. But things are changing. Environmental issues are forcing brake manufacturers to use different materials and those materials are shortening the life of cast iron rotors, and their pads.

When you order a modern day automobile, one would think that you would want the best and most capable brakes for that auto. Compared to ceramics on a Ferrari, the Carrera PCCBs are a relative bargain.

Sure, like all brakes, they don't work effectively that first time you step on the brake coming out of a car wash, but that's it. I have read repeatedly the comments about a few people who claim that they're unsafe in rain. What a bunch of crap. I have over 26,000 on mine and they still look brand new. The brake pedal modulation is perfect, and I appreciate the lower unsprung weight as it makes that car handle that much better. I suspect the PCCB rotors will easily surpass 250,000 miles before you need consider replacment,--if even then. Do the math. How many time will you have been in for iron rotors and pads in that time, along with labor? And downtime with the car?

And the myriad complaints about rusty rotors and rusty wheels? Avoid iron,--and you avoid rust. People write how you won't get back your investment in PCCBs at resale. How much do you get back at resale anyway? Are you ordering the car for resale purposes?

There's also the set of people you might order the PCCBS, put inferior brakes on while they own it, and then return the PCCBs just before they sell the car. Poitn them out to me and I'LL buy that car! I love it when people save a car for the next guy.

Dan

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Jun 21, 2008 9:02:37 PM

SVNSVN: Rennteam Pro; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 2994, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2005; Reply to: Dan L

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Right on, Dan!

The best option, imo!

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Jun 21, 2008 11:08:24 PM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005; Reply to: SVNSVN

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

If you chose steel brakes you will be happy but if you choose PCCB you will never choose steel again. With a 997 every control is perfectly weighted and a pleasure to use. PCCB adds to the Porsche experience of perfecting the interface between man and machine. In a word they are sublime!

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Jun 22, 2008 3:29:18 AM

BMCG: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 230, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 28, 2003; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

In my best Dr. Evil voice: "Right"....

Sublime????

Where did i put the Koolaid...ahh yes...right over there.

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Jun 22, 2008 4:35:48 AM

Hollli82: Junior; Loc: Las Vegas, USA; Posts: 125, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 3, 2005; Reply to: Dan L

Re: PCCB vs. metal brakes

Quote:

Sure, like all brakes, they don't work effectively that first time you step on the brake coming out of a car wash, but that's it.
Dan

What is with all this concern about braking after a carwash? I guess I was wrong thinking that most of us wash our own cars by hand. So maybe this is one of those problems that is discussed frequently but in reality happens rarely. On the other hand maybe going to the carwash is more common than I thought.

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