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    More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Well not really, this is about the new 997 with PDK but some great stuff about the new DI engine with an awesome video of the test rig Porsche uses to simulate track forces on the motor....
    I'm begining to feel a bit more optimistic about this

    http://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=grdfp&preview=1&_x=1#/page2/

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Nice find TB

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Thanks, great find That white cab looks awesome.

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Did you guys read that line in there too (page 7 of the article)? The new 9A1 engine block is stronger than the GT3 based engine?!?!

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Quote:
    chuckd said:
    Did you guys read that line in there too (page 7 of the article)? The new 9A1 engine block is stronger than the GT3 based engine?!?!


    I saw that in a Chris Harris interview too. There are many ways to measure strength (and many different parts of a motor which can be stronger or weaker). I wonder if this motor is truly as durable in endurance applications as GT1?

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Here's another interesting article on the new engines.
    http://editorial.carsales.com.au/car-review/2946310.aspx


    Interesting quotes:
    "Under current FIA GT rules direct fuel-injection is outlawed. As such it's not clear whether Porsche's GT3 homologation model will adopt the same architecture as the series production models."

    "Though Porsche is not giving away details on the rest of the new generation boxers, the latest 911 models herald a step change for the revered boxer six. As is the normal practice, the full range of 911 variants using the new engine architecture and its DFI fuelling will be rolled out over the next few years. This will include turbocharged versions and a variety of capacities, including smaller displacement naturally-aspirated engines for the Boxster and Cayman ranges."

    Looks like the GT1 based turbo engine is out, but the GT3 is possibly here to stay due to homologation issues. What does that mean for the GT2 then since its not a homologation special? Hmmm..

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    I saw that in a Chris Harris interview too. There are many ways to measure strength (and many different parts of a motor which can be stronger or weaker). I wonder if this motor is truly as durable in endurance applications as GT1?



    Of course you are right and the many thousands of race hours this GT1 platform has under its belt(s) are testament to its strength.
    It is the first time I have ever seen an engine test rig like that which appeared to be fully simulating a full bore track session - IMO if the rig is indeed loading properly and creating the correct conditions there is no reason why Porsche cannot "fast track" this motor's durability to GT1 levels.
    Does anyone know the details of this rig (like just how representative of a proper full bore lap it is ?) and how long have Porsche been using it and what sort of endurance tests do they do on it ?
    Just hope it wasn't around during development of the 996 N/A motor

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Interesting, great find! A new Carrera would be an excellent stable mate for the Turbo.

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Most important in that Chris Harris review is that Thomas Wassabach, chief of the new Carrera engine development for PAG, conceded that DI could be applied to the GT1 block (of course it's "possible"), but they are touting the new DI application to the Carrera engine with extra power-presumably capable of handling turbocharging and trackworthy simply because by shaking the engine around with track-equivalent G's to replicate oil starvation factors that this "proves" the engine is up to the GT1's bulletproof standards. Do you guys really believe this?

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Do you guys really believe this?



    "I'll believe ya when me [beep] turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet." - Brian Cox

    Smart man, this Brian .

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Most important in that Chris Harris review is that Thomas Wassabach, chief of the new Carrera engine development for PAG, conceded that DI could be applied to the GT1 block (of course it's "possible"), but they are touting the new DI application to the Carrera engine with extra power-presumably capable of handling turbocharging and trackworthy simply because by shaking the engine around with track-equivalent G's to replicate oil starvation factors that this "proves" the engine is up to the GT1's bulletproof standards. Do you guys really believe this?



    I am going to go out on a limb here.....

    RS Tuning actually do about 97% of the testing of a "new" engine configuration on their expensive Borghi & Sevari engine dyno which after many years experience is set up to replicate severe track use. The road test once a new configuration is signed off the engine dyno is little more than a formality...

    This will seem ridiculous to those used to the road "tuning" being the major part of getting the engine performing properly in road/track conditions but one has to look at the proven reliablity of RS's race engines to see that in fact they do know what they are doing and obviously CAN replicate proper track conditions on their engine rig.

    I am obviously stating the above because I feel if Porsche have developed this awesome engine rig which can PROPERLY replicate hard laps of the ring with all the associated loading, lateral G and heat characteristics then leave it running flat out for 100 hours then there is every chance that they can indeed very quickly develop a successor to the GT1....

    As has been mentioned their past performance (996 n/a) does not bode well and knowing how they are driven mostly by profit makes us all cynical - but it looks to me like they have the means if they really wanted to build a GT1 successor ?

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Most important in that Chris Harris review is that Thomas Wassabach, chief of the new Carrera engine development for PAG, conceded that DI could be applied to the GT1 block (of course it's "possible"), but they are touting the new DI application to the Carrera engine with extra power-presumably capable of handling turbocharging and trackworthy simply because by shaking the engine around with track-equivalent G's to replicate oil starvation factors that this "proves" the engine is up to the GT1's bulletproof standards. Do you guys really believe this?



    I am going to go out on a limb here.....

    RS Tuning actually do about 97% of the testing of a "new" engine configuration on their expensive Borghi & Sevari engine dyno which after many years experience is set up to replicate severe track use. The road test once a new configuration is signed off the engine dyno is little more than a formality...

    This will seem ridiculous to those used to the road "tuning" being the major part of getting the engine performing properly in road/track conditions but one has to look at the proven reliablity of RS's race engines to see that in fact they do know what they are doing and obviously CAN replicate proper track conditions on their engine rig.

    I am obviously stating the above because I feel if Porsche have developed this awesome engine rig which can PROPERLY replicate hard laps of the ring with all the associated loading, lateral G and heat characteristics then leave it running flat out for 100 hours then there is every chance that they can indeed very quickly develop a successor to the GT1....

    As has been mentioned their past performance (996 n/a) does not bode well and knowing how they are driven mostly by profit makes us all cynical - but it looks to me like they have the means if they really wanted to build a GT1 successor ?



    I have no doubt that they can build a GT1 successor. The question is - do they want to? Or should we say, have they?

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Quote:
    chuckd said:
    Did you guys read that line in there too (page 7 of the article)? The new 9A1 engine block is stronger than the GT3 based engine?!?!



    1. never believe everything a press release states(and it is a Porsche press release )
    2. IF Porsche decides to use this new DI engine block for the upcoming 997 Turbo facelift, it WILL be stronger or at least as strong as it needs to be. The problem with this is that it would be very likely impossible to tune the future 997 Turbo engines to the figures achived right now without compromising reliability.
    3. there is a reason why the current GT2/Turbo/GT3 engine is much more expensive than even the new DI engines(which actually cost the same in production as the current M97 engines as far as I heard).

    Anyway: there will be a time when Porsche decides to use ONE engine basis for ALL 911 models, this is the only thing which really makes sense from a cost/logistics point of view. I'm even afraid that this will include the Cayman and Boxster engines too. Not to make the more powerful turbo/GT3/etc. engines much cheaper but mostly to lower overall engine production cost and to allow higher flexibility regarding fluctuating demand of certain models.

    Just a guess though...

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Porsche will IMHO move to a common engine for cost reasons and also given the facts about the GT1 engine below:

    1. Most GT3s aren't tuned so it's no issue, provided they are reliable as standard.

    2. The vast majority of Turbo/GT2 owners have no clue about what an engine block (or crankcase to be correct) is, or whether it is a GT1 or not.

    3. Porsche do not care about the tuner aftermarket, they are interested only in their own car sales and would be happy if there were no tuners (as per Nissans view on the GTR).

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    It's very sad that the days of over-engineered engines in specific cars that are very tuner friendly are coming to an end.

    It used to be that certain Skylines/Porsches were tuner favourites, but it looks like cost cutting and other savings tactics are ending this era.

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Quote:
    Guy said:
    Porsche will IMHO move to a common engine for cost reasons and also given the facts about the GT1 engine below:

    1. Most GT3s aren't tuned so it's no issue, provided they are reliable as standard.

    2. The vast majority of Turbo/GT2 owners have no clue about what an engine block (or crankcase to be correct) is, or whether it is a GT1 or not.

    3. Porsche do not care about the tuner aftermarket, they are interested only in their own car sales and would be happy if there were no tuners (as per Nissans view on the GTR).



    Agree 100%....

    I was also reflecting on what I was told by RS Tuning recently about the current 997tt engine with minor add ons (OK expensive but actually quite minor ) has simply too much torque and they are finding that the current 997tt manual box will only last a couple of thousand km of Autobahn use - this is down to the size of the torque ie 850+ REAL NM and the fact that it is delivered so low down in the rev range so the drivers are keeping their tts in 6th gear at 3000rpm and blasting all the way through to 300kph very rapidly - the gearboxes just break !

    So it seems to me that this GT1 platform (at least in tt form) is now so completely evolved that it IS overkill and for this and the (good) reasons Guy lists above it will be replaced....

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    Guy said:
    Porsche will IMHO move to a common engine for cost reasons and also given the facts about the GT1 engine below:

    1. Most GT3s aren't tuned so it's no issue, provided they are reliable as standard.

    2. The vast majority of Turbo/GT2 owners have no clue about what an engine block (or crankcase to be correct) is, or whether it is a GT1 or not.

    3. Porsche do not care about the tuner aftermarket, they are interested only in their own car sales and would be happy if there were no tuners (as per Nissans view on the GTR).



    Agree 100%....

    I was also reflecting on what I was told by RS Tuning recently about the current 997tt engine with minor add ons (OK expensive but actually quite minor ) has simply too much torque and they are finding that the current 997tt manual box will only last a couple of thousand km of Autobahn use - this is down to the size of the torque ie 850+ REAL NM and the fact that it is delivered so low down in the rev range so the drivers are keeping their tts in 6th gear at 3000rpm and blasting all the way through to 300kph very rapidly - the gearboxes just break !

    So it seems to me that this GT1 platform (at least in tt form) is now so completely evolved that it IS overkill and for this and the (good) reasons Guy lists above it will be replaced....



    I just read through this thread again and noted in your comment the mentality that, because the GT1 block evolved through the 997TT/GT2 is so powerful and durable, the stock gearbox cannot handle the available torque, so therefore, the engine should be "dumbed down" to the level of the gearbox capacity, rather than the converse of developing a gearbox that can handle the available torque.

    This is a backward logic, driven, I understand by various manufacturing cost and logistical issues (including amongst others emissions standards), with world-leading performance a now secondary aim.

    I also don't view Guy's reasons as "good" ones-especially Porsche banking on the ignorance of the average Porsche 997TT/GT2 owner not knowing what his car's engine block is derived from-to make a cheaper engine.

    Re: More on the soon to disappear GT1 block

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    Guy said:
    Porsche will IMHO move to a common engine for cost reasons and also given the facts about the GT1 engine below:

    1. Most GT3s aren't tuned so it's no issue, provided they are reliable as standard.

    2. The vast majority of Turbo/GT2 owners have no clue about what an engine block (or crankcase to be correct) is, or whether it is a GT1 or not.

    3. Porsche do not care about the tuner aftermarket, they are interested only in their own car sales and would be happy if there were no tuners (as per Nissans view on the GTR).



    Agree 100%....

    I was also reflecting on what I was told by RS Tuning recently about the current 997tt engine with minor add ons (OK expensive but actually quite minor ) has simply too much torque and they are finding that the current 997tt manual box will only last a couple of thousand km of Autobahn use - this is down to the size of the torque ie 850+ REAL NM and the fact that it is delivered so low down in the rev range so the drivers are keeping their tts in 6th gear at 3000rpm and blasting all the way through to 300kph very rapidly - the gearboxes just break !

    So it seems to me that this GT1 platform (at least in tt form) is now so completely evolved that it IS overkill and for this and the (good) reasons Guy lists above it will be replaced....



    I just read through this thread again and noted in your comment the mentality that, because the GT1 block evolved through the 997TT/GT2 is so powerful and durable, the stock gearbox cannot handle the available torque, so therefore, the engine should be "dumbed down" to the level of the gearbox capacity, rather than the converse of developing a gearbox that can handle the available torque.

    This is a backward logic, driven, I understand by various manufacturing cost and logistical issues (including amongst others emissions standards), with world-leading performance a now secondary aim.

    I also don't view Guy's reasons as "good" ones-especially Porsche banking on the ignorance of the average Porsche 997TT/GT2 owner not knowing what his car's engine block is derived from-to make a cheaper engine.



    Ruf should buy the patent from Porsche and keep making the block for their cars and selling crated engines to disgruntled amazing-leaky-RMS-wonder owners .

     
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