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    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    As a French I may be more familiar than some of you regarding Prost's thinking/tastes, particularly because of the French press and a blog run until recently by one of his relative, so hereafter a couple of points:

    @intouch1: I know you were kidding re. Prost as a former Ferrari employee, nevertheless he has not considered himself as such for a long time now, in fact he has had some very hard comments towards the Scuderia Ferrari (F1 team) since then, not least in the frame of the spying scandal last year (read: the cheaters are not the one you may believe to be ).

    @SciFrog: I would rather think the opposite, i.e. he may have relatively cold relations with Renault and the major French compagnies in general since they refuse to support him back in 1997 as he set up his own F1 team.
    He expressed his anger to them quite frequently in interviews when relating to this period of his life.

    @nberry: you may want to know that Prost currently or at least until very recently races in a series called in France "Trophe Andros", which consists of four-wheel-drive cars competing on ice (I do not know any more if they are mid- or front-engined, maybe both but it is late here and I do not have the time to check) and takes place every winter.

    One last point, actually I am quite surprised Prost takes part to such sport cars comparo because I remember very well of an interview of him when he was still an F1 driver and stating he hates sport cars, just not his thing.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    Ziggy said:
    As a French I may be more familiar than some of you regarding Prost's thinking/tastes, particularly because of the French press and a blog run until recently by one of his relative, so hereafter a couple of points:

    @intouch1: I know you were kidding re. Prost as a former Ferrari employee, nevertheless he has not considered himself as such for a long time now, in fact he has had some very hard comments towards the Scuderia Ferrari (F1 team) since then, not least in the frame of the spying scandal last year (read: the cheaters are not the one you may believe to be ).

    @SciFrog: I would rather think the opposite, i.e. he may have relatively cold relations with Renault and the major French compagnies in general since they refuse to support him back in 1997 as he set up his own F1 team.
    He expressed his anger to them quite frequently in interviews when relating to this period of his life.

    @nberry: you may want to know that Prost currently or at least until very recently races in a series called in France "Trophe Andros", which consists of four-wheel-drive cars competing on ice (I do not know any more if they are mid- or front-engined, maybe both but it is late here and I do not have the time to check) and takes place every winter.

    One last point, actually I am quite surprised Prost takes part to such sport cars comparo because I remember very well of an interview of him when he was still an F1 driver and stating he hates sport cars, just not his thing.



    My comment were made in jest in response to another post. However, I do thank you for your remarks. They are very instructive.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    Ziggy said:
    As a French I may be more familiar than some of you regarding Prost's thinking/tastes, particularly because of the French press and a blog run until recently by one of his relative, so hereafter a couple of points:

    @intouch1: I know you were kidding re. Prost as a former Ferrari employee, nevertheless he has not considered himself as such for a long time now, in fact he has had some very hard comments towards the Scuderia Ferrari (F1 team) since then, not least in the frame of the spying scandal last year (read: the cheaters are not the one you may believe to be ).

    @SciFrog: I would rather think the opposite, i.e. he may have relatively cold relations with Renault and the major French compagnies in general since they refuse to support him back in 1997 as he set up his own F1 team.
    He expressed his anger to them quite frequently in interviews when relating to this period of his life.

    @nberry: you may want to know that Prost currently or at least until very recently races in a series called in France "Trophe Andros", which consists of four-wheel-drive cars competing on ice (I do not know any more if they are mid- or front-engined, maybe both but it is late here and I do not have the time to check) and takes place every winter.

    One last point, actually I am quite surprised Prost takes part to such sport cars comparo because I remember very well of an interview of him when he was still an F1 driver and stating he hates sport cars, just not his thing.



    I believe Prost drove 4WD Corollas in those ice races, which explains everything. He may not be a Ferrari employee anymore, but he is paid by the parent company of Lexus who is about to launch it's own supercar!

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    So what do these lap-times mean?
    You know, the 599 is faster than the CGT and Enzo on QR.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    Ziggy said:
    @intouch1: I know you were kidding re. Prost as a former Ferrari employee, nevertheless he has not considered himself as such for a long time now, in fact he has had some very hard comments towards the Scuderia Ferrari (F1 team) since then, not least in the frame of the spying scandal last year (read: the cheaters are not the one you may believe to be ).



    If you are saying that those who paid US$ 100 million for the privilege of being considered the guilty party were not the real cheaters, then I for one will immediately believe it.

    I am looking forward to someone writing the true story someday in his memoirs.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    i am actually very suprised (if these lap times are confirmed) about the gt2 performance. porsche's never fared very well compared with other cars: prost's last test compared the superleggera with the gt3rs and the lambo has been 2.5 seconds faster than the porsche. i don't believe the gt2 is over 2 sec faster the the carrera gt and over 3 sec faster than the gt3. not one lap time i know of the gt2 was faster that cgt.
    also i don't believe gt2 and lp560 can be so close to the scuderia.
    since the scuderia's test on quattroruote's june issue is out already and there is no mention about Prost having tested it, one explaination may be that lp560 and gt2 have been driven by prost, whereas the scuderia by giani. this may put at least 1 sec worth in favor of lambo and porsche in the lap time and is consistent with the quattroruote's fame of being german biased.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    zaf52 said:
    i am actually very suprised (if these lap times are confirmed) about the gt2 performance. porsche's never fared very well compared with other cars: prost's last test compared the superleggera with the gt3rs and the lambo has been 2.5 seconds faster than the porsche. i don't believe the gt2 is over 2 sec faster the the carrera gt and over 3 sec faster than the gt3. not one lap time i know of the gt2 was faster that cgt.
    also i don't believe gt2 and lp560 can be so close to the scuderia.
    since the scuderia's test on quattroruote's june issue is out already and there is no mention about Prost having tested it, one explaination may be that lp560 and gt2 have been driven by prost, whereas the scuderia by giani. this may put at least 1 sec worth in favor of lambo and porsche in the lap time and is consistent with the quattroruote's fame of being german biased.



    Superleggera is in a different league than GT3 RS. Price wise, power wise... Not a fair comparison.

    As to GT2 being faster than CGT at Vairano, keep in mind that it has undergone a reconstruction and the tarmac is now better (said to be worth about 2 seconds). Both enzo and cgt were tested in old specification.

    AFAIK he has driven all 4 cars including the scud. There were some misleading info about that though so lets wait for the test to be published.

    I have no troubles believing the 997GT2 is that close to Scud. It also is a beast.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    mv said:

    AFAIK he has driven all 4 cars including the scud. There were some misleading info about that though so lets wait for the test to be published.

    I have no troubles believing the 997GT2 is that close to Scud. It also is a beast.



    I have the quattroruote's issue with the scuderia's test and there is no mention about Prost anywhere. there are a couple of videos on this test in the quattroruote's web site
    http://www.quattroruote.it/video/videonovita.cfm?codvideo=1420&salone=129&formato=fv
    (you need to log in to view them) and they clearly state that Giani was capable of 1.15.1.

    on track, the gt2 is not in the same league as the scuderia, although it is Porsche's best attempt. gt2 tested much closer to gt3rs is most of the tracks,
    http://www.fastestlaps.com/track7.html
    http://www.fastestlaps.com/track24.html (gt3rs much quicker that gt2)
    http://www.fastestlaps.com/track23.html
    in nurburgring itself rohrl managed a 7.31 after extensive tuneup and attempts with the gt2 and 7.42 with the gt3 (quite slower than the gt3rs)
    thus the 3+ seconds difference in Vairano (1.15 course, both of the them driven by prost) is highly suspicious.

    moreover, scuderia has a *much* finer fluidodynamic tune up than the gt2 (just look at the exit speeds after 1km acceleration test and the maximum speeds of both of the cars. although the scuderia's higher downforce would be mostly effective in 180-230km/h turns-non existent in vairano) and it is based on a model (f430) that has better frame-suspension package than the 911series (just see the fia gt2 races).

    it looks like the quattroruote guys can't bear having a ferrari on the top of their list (this infact would be their very first time!). that's sad since if even italian magazines will not do justice to road ferrari cars, nobody will do.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    zaf52 said:
    on track, the gt2 is not in the same league as the scuderia, although it is Porsche's best attempt.



    You are most likely wrong here. The next issue of SportAuto contains the comprehensive Supertest of the Scuderia. The GT2 Supertest was already publsihed some months ago.

    My expectation: The GT2 is several seconds faster on the NBR. In HHR both cars should have nearly identical performance. Top-speed acceleration of the GT2 should be slightly better than that of the Scuderia. In summary, the GT2 is a tad faster than the Scuderia.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    zaf52 said:
    Quote:
    mv said:

    AFAIK he has driven all 4 cars including the scud. There were some misleading info about that though so lets wait for the test to be published.

    I have no troubles believing the 997GT2 is that close to Scud. It also is a beast.



    I have the quattroruote's issue with the scuderia's test and there is no mention about Prost anywhere. there are a couple of videos on this test in the quattroruote's web site
    http://www.quattroruote.it/video/videonovita.cfm?codvideo=1420&salone=129&formato=fv
    (you need to log in to view them) and they clearly state that Giani was capable of 1.15.1.

    on track, the gt2 is not in the same league as the scuderia, although it is Porsche's best attempt. gt2 tested much closer to gt3rs is most of the tracks,
    http://www.fastestlaps.com/track7.html
    http://www.fastestlaps.com/track24.html (gt3rs much quicker that gt2)
    http://www.fastestlaps.com/track23.html
    in nurburgring itself rohrl managed a 7.31 after extensive tuneup and attempts with the gt2 and 7.42 with the gt3 (quite slower than the gt3rs)
    thus the 3+ seconds difference in Vairano (1.15 course, both of the them driven by prost) is highly suspicious.

    moreover, scuderia has a *much* finer fluidodynamic tune up than the gt2 (just look at the exit speeds after 1km acceleration test and the maximum speeds of both of the cars. although the scuderia's higher downforce would be mostly effective in 180-230km/h turns-non existent in vairano) and it is based on a model (f430) that has better frame-suspension package than the 911series (just see the fia gt2 races).

    it looks like the quattroruote guys can't bear having a ferrari on the top of their list (this infact would be their very first time!). that's sad since if even italian magazines will not do justice to road ferrari cars, nobody will do.





    totally wrong

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    zaf52 said:
    on track, the gt2 is not in the same league as the scuderia, although it is Porsche's best attempt.



    You are most likely wrong here. The next issue of SportAuto contains the comprehensive Supertest of the Scuderia. The GT2 Supertest was already publsihed some months ago.

    My expectation: The GT2 is several seconds faster on the NBR. In HHR both cars should have nearly identical performance. Top-speed acceleration of the GT2 should be slightly better than that of the Scuderia. In summary, the GT2 is a tad faster than the Scuderia.



    sportauto drivers are known to be lousy with any non 100% arian (i.e. "local") cars(this is pretty common, though, among car magazines around the world, with the likely sole exception of italy's) -lp640, z06 cases docet- lamborghini and corvette had to send official drivers to properly test their cars since von saurma had sore throat when drove them
    i would have loved to compare his nurburgring split on the gtr with the official nissan tester's time...
    on the top of that they always seem to forget disengaging
    ferrari's park brakes before shooting a timed lap...

    however, sportauto's hiccups usually seem to disappear when driving german cars such as porsche and bmws.
    ferraris will have nurburgring times only when an official ferrari's pilot such as benuzzi, gene, badoer... will be given few days off to goof off around the ring with some car.

    acceleration times are absolutely useless to evaluate the "quickness" of a car, or else we should concede that top fuel dragster are much faster than f1 cars. even still, i have yet to see a test in which gt2 outaccelerates the scuderia (i am sure sportauto will take care of that pretty soon :-) )

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    intouch1 said:
    Quote:
    zaf52 said:


    I have the quattroruote's issue with the scuderia's test and there is no mention about Prost anywhere. there are a couple of videos on this test in the quattroruote's web site
    http://www.quattroruote.it/video/videonovita.cfm?codvideo=1420&salone=129&formato=fv
    (you need to log in to view them) and they clearly state that Giani was capable of 1.15.1.

    on track, the gt2 is not in the same league as the scuderia, although it is Porsche's best attempt. gt2 tested much closer to gt3rs is most of the tracks,
    http://www.fastestlaps.com/track7.html
    http://www.fastestlaps.com/track24.html (gt3rs much quicker that gt2)
    http://www.fastestlaps.com/track23.html
    in nurburgring itself rohrl managed a 7.31 after extensive tuneup and attempts with the gt2 and 7.42 with the gt3 (quite slower than the gt3rs)
    thus the 3+ seconds difference in Vairano (1.15 course, both of the them driven by prost) is highly suspicious.

    moreover, scuderia has a *much* finer fluidodynamic tune up than the gt2 (just look at the exit speeds after 1km acceleration test and the maximum speeds of both of the cars. although the scuderia's higher downforce would be mostly effective in 180-230km/h turns-non existent in vairano) and it is based on a model (f430) that has better frame-suspension package than the 911series (just see the fia gt2 races).

    it looks like the quattroruote guys can't bear having a ferrari on the top of their list (this infact would be their very first time!). that's sad since if even italian magazines will not do justice to road ferrari cars, nobody will do.





    totally wrong



    i see...i had not thought about that...you must be right

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    zaf52 said:
    even still, i have yet to see a test in which gt2 outaccelerates the scuderia (i am sure sportauto will take care of that pretty soon :-) )

    "

    Italian Automobilismo magazine.

    The GT2 had much better results there. Almost too good.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    i did not know that magazine tested cars with their own equipment. did they also test scuderia? what are their main results? just for the records.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Automobilismo

    997 GT2

    0-100 km/h 3,64
    0-400 mt: 11,33" (209,3 km/h)
    0-1000 m 20,29 (268,8km/h)

    V max: 327,1 km/h

    weight: 1.474,8 kg


    430 Scuderia

    0 - 100 kph: 3"61
    400m: 11"58 @ 202.1 km/h
    1000m: 20"88 @ 256.80 km/h

    Vmax: 320.7 a 8650 giri min.

    Kerb weight: 1407.2 kg

    The results of the GT2 are way too good. There were some rumours that this press car was specially tuned. It did 0-200km/h in 10,4s which is off all the other results (5 german tests - 3x 11,5s, 11,6s, 11,1s)

    But anyway, it is clear (from all the tests so far) that beyond 200km/h the GT2 is considerably faster.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    mv said:
    Automobilismo

    997 GT2

    0-100 km/h 3,64
    0-400 mt: 11,33" (209,3 km/h)
    0-1000 m 20,29 (268,8km/h)

    V max: 327,1 km/h

    weight: 1.474,8 kg


    430 Scuderia

    0 - 100 kph: 3"61
    400m: 11"58 @ 202.1 km/h
    1000m: 20"88 @ 256.80 km/h

    Vmax: 320.7 a 8650 giri min.

    Kerb weight: 1407.2 kg

    The results of the GT2 are way too good. There were some rumours that this press car was specially tuned. It did 0-200km/h in 10,4s which is off all the other results (5 german tests - 3x 11,5s, 11,6s, 11,1s)

    But anyway, it is clear (from all the tests so far) that beyond 200km/h the GT2 is considerably faster.



    thank you for the infos!
    except, as you say, for a slight performance increase of the gt2 tested by other magazines, the acceleration results are consistent with what others have found for the same two cars, which means roughly equivalent.

    however, two values stand out and have been recorded by all the magazines: top speed and exit speed after 1km.
    they are skewed, in a sense: alter 1 km scuderia is roughly 15 kmh slower than gt2, but the max speed is essentially the same (except for the automobilismo test which should not be counted on too much). keep in mind that the m5 speed was roughly 245-250 after a km and the old ferrari f40 was 268.
    i remember a similar behaviour of enzo vs carrera gt: 1km exit speed of enzo was comparable with the one of gt, but top speed over 20kmh higher that the gt.
    as i said in another post, this speaks out loudly on the fluidodynamic efficiency of ferraris compared with any other car: although the geometry of both scuderia and enzo is fixed (i.e. lack of *extactible* wings, flaps and so on..., actually they both lack of any wing, altogether) they have a much higher downforce in the 170-260 kmh range and *at the same time* a relatively lower downforce over 300 for achieveing an high max speed.
    this is why it is a safe expectation to see both the scuderia and enzo being much faster than the other cars on tracks with at least few turns in the 170-230 kmh range.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    zaf52 said:
    Quote:
    mv said:
    Automobilismo

    997 GT2

    0-100 km/h 3,64
    0-400 mt: 11,33" (209,3 km/h)
    0-1000 m 20,29 (268,8km/h)

    V max: 327,1 km/h

    weight: 1.474,8 kg


    430 Scuderia

    0 - 100 kph: 3"61
    400m: 11"58 @ 202.1 km/h
    1000m: 20"88 @ 256.80 km/h

    Vmax: 320.7 a 8650 giri min.

    Kerb weight: 1407.2 kg

    The results of the GT2 are way too good. There were some rumours that this press car was specially tuned. It did 0-200km/h in 10,4s which is off all the other results (5 german tests - 3x 11,5s, 11,6s, 11,1s)

    But anyway, it is clear (from all the tests so far) that beyond 200km/h the GT2 is considerably faster.



    thank you for the infos!
    except, as you say, for a slight performance increase of the gt2 tested by other magazines, the acceleration results are consistent with what others have found for the same two cars, which means roughly equivalent.

    however, two values stand out and have been recorded by all the magazines: top speed and exit speed after 1km.
    they are skewed, in a sense: alter 1 km scuderia is roughly 15 kmh slower than gt2, but the max speed is essentially the same (except for the automobilismo test which should not be counted on too much). keep in mind that the m5 speed was roughly 245-250 after a km and the old ferrari f40 was 268.
    i remember a similar behaviour of enzo vs carrera gt: 1km exit speed of enzo was comparable with the one of gt, but top speed over 20kmh higher that the gt.
    as i said in another post, this speaks out loudly on the fluidodynamic efficiency of ferraris compared with any other car: although the geometry of both scuderia and enzo is fixed (i.e. lack of *extactible* wings, flaps and so on..., actually they both lack of any wing, altogether) they have a much higher downforce in the 170-260 kmh range and *at the same time* a relatively lower downforce over 300 for achieveing an high max speed.
    this is why it is a safe expectation to see both the scuderia and enzo being much faster than the other cars on tracks with at least few turns in the 170-230 kmh range.



    Um... No.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Results...

    Ferrari 430 Scuderia

    Lap time 1.15,375min
    0-100km/h: 3.76s
    0-200km/h:11.64s
    1458kg with driver


    Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4

    Lap time 1.15,714min
    0-100km/h: 3.65s
    0-200km/h:11.09s
    1590kg with driver


    Porsche 997 GT2

    Lap time 1.15,528s
    0-100km/h: 3.87s
    0-200km/h:12.04s
    1550kg with driver

    Nissan GT-R

    Lap time 1.17,600s
    0-100km/h: 3.87s
    0-200km/h:13.15s
    1800kg with driver

    GT-R is JDM car with latest suspension specs.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Kreso, are you sure you quoted the LP560's weigh correctly. if its only 20Kg less than a standard Gallardo, 1690 kg would make more sense than 1590.

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Thanks for the info! Any topspeeds measured?

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Results...

    Ferrari 430 Scuderia

    Lap time 1.15,375min
    0-100km/h: 3.76s
    0-200km/h:11.64s
    1458kg with driver


    Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4

    Lap time 1.15,714min
    0-100km/h: 3.65s
    0-200km/h:11.09s
    1590kg with driver


    Porsche 997 GT2

    Lap time 1.15,528s
    0-100km/h: 3.87s
    0-200km/h:12.04s
    1550kg with driver

    Nissan GT-R

    Lap time 1.17,600s
    0-100km/h: 3.87s
    0-200km/h:13.15s
    1800kg with driver

    GT-R is JDM car with latest suspension specs.



    Interesting. The GT2 seems slow .

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Yes, this example of GT2 seems little bit slow but, it is full specs car.

    One other thing-some European magazine already measured JDM GT-R on the Ring... It is unofficial since that car can not be purchased officially in Europe yet...
    Time? Fastest 7.47min with Dunlops... They did THREE runs with two different drivers... With that example of GT-R 7.29min were totally impossible...

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Yes, this example of GT2 seems little bit slow but, it is full specs car.

    One other thing-some European magazine already measured JDM GT-R on the Ring... It is unofficial since that car can not be purchased officially in Europe yet...
    Time? Fastest 7.47min with Dunlops... They did THREE runs with two different drivers... With that example of GT-R 7.29min were totally impossible...



    Magazine - Top Gear

    Drivers - Clarkson, May




    Am I right ?

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    NO...

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    hahaha - Nick will know the answer: some German drivers bribed by Porsche

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    hahaha - Nick will know the answer: some German drivers bribed by Porsche



    Indeed...

    BTW, there is only one true Ring specialist:

    KAWASAKI!

    Oh NO, I got it wrong... It is TOCHIO HONDA!

    Ups... Wrong again!

    SUZUKI! SUZUKI SWIFT GT is the Ring king!

    Oh NOOOO! Wrong for the third time...

    Tochio Suzuki... Did I get it right this time?

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    SUZUKI! SUZUKI SWIFT GT is the Ring king!





    Only in the hands of Suzuki-san

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Yes, this example of GT2 seems little bit slow but, it is full specs car.

    One other thing-some European magazine already measured JDM GT-R on the Ring... It is unofficial since that car can not be purchased officially in Europe yet...
    Time? Fastest 7.47min with Dunlops... They did THREE runs with two different drivers... With that example of GT-R 7.29min were totally impossible...



    Unless Suzuki Swift has some supernatural driving powers, there is no way a stock car could achieve a 7:29 .

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Thanks Kreso!

    Possible to give out names ? Magazine / Driver on the 7.47? or a scan to shut some people up ?

    Re: QR Comparison : Scud vs 997 GT2 vs LP560 vs GT

    Quote:
    BiTurbo said:
    Thanks Kreso!

    Possible to give out names ? Magazine / Driver on the 7.47? or a scan to shut some people up ?



    Just this-very, very reliable European magazine that has very good Ring experience... Two drivers, both with some racing experience...

    Point was to see what is possible...

    Will they publish it? Chances are slim IMHO since some political issues may be involved...

    Now, we will have to wait for SA Supertest...

     
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