Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor - Page1

Jun 12, 2008 5:40:00 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: roadtrip

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

If they change over, and they probably will because that's "progress," the aura of (or sound reasoning for) the GT1-inspired engine will last for a few years and then be forgotten. Heck..., maybe it will last for less than a few years! How long is the warrenty on new engine?

This debate has two possibilities for the future, say 2018:

1. guys will be saying, "Make sure you get a 2007 or 2008 Turbo if you're looking to buy a classic Turbo.

or

2. too bad gas is us$50 a gallon. Otherwise it would be cool to find and buy an old 2007 or 2008 Porsche Turbo.

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Jun 12, 2008 8:51:45 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

The death knell of the 911 Turbo is beginning to ring, driven obsolete ironically not by engineering "progress," but rather by marketing pressure. The 911 Turbo was the "Renaissance" car, able to act as a luxury sport vehicle for the upper class, be driven to work as a daily driver by the professional class, and be thrashed around the track with few peers with barely a modification.

Now the future of the car is the GT classification, with pseudo-scientific claims that the GT1 block CANNOT possibly be direct-injected, that emissions standards are rendering the setup inefficient and unacceptable, all self-rationalizations for a business model of short-term cost control and of dubious, long-term viability.

Sign up for the last of the everyday supercars, since if the rumors are true, the 911 Turbo is about to go out with a bang....

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Jun 12, 2008 9:42:16 PM

roadtrip: Veteran; Loc: new mexico, usa; Posts: 1172, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2006; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

historically since 1979 the turbo has track record of disappearing for periods of time for various marketing or enviornmental reasons....this time it wont be back

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Jun 13, 2008 9:26:30 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: roadtrip

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

Maybe the real reason for Porsche to 'cut cost' with the Turbo motor is because of the incredibly low value of the US dollar? The US already has the lowest list price, I think by at least US40k, in the whole world. With the US dollar worth next to nothing, Porsche is really not making much money out of it's biggest market.

Since Porsche can't really raise the price in the US, the only other way is to cut cost. So for us people from rest of the world, we can thank the Americans for making Porsche cheap out on the engine block.

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Jun 13, 2008 10:15:11 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
Maybe the real reason for Porsche to 'cut cost' with the Turbo motor is because of the incredibly low value of the US dollar? The US already has the lowest list price, I think by at least US40k, in the whole world. With the US dollar worth next to nothing, Porsche is really not making much money out of it's biggest market.

Since Porsche can't really raise the price in the US, the only other way is to cut cost. So for us people from rest of the world, we can thank the Americans for making Porsche cheap out on the engine block.

Then why not provide the US, their most-appreciated market, with the newest-and-greatest 3.8-litre DI engine and leave all the rest of us losers with the old GT1 tech? Of course we'll be mighty jealous of the Americans, but we'll live

.

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Jun 13, 2008 12:08:26 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

I don't think that would work as our American friends seem to do more aftermarket mods than anyone else!

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Jun 13, 2008 1:31:37 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
So for us people from rest of the world, we can thank the Americans for making Porsche cheap out on the engine block.

It's disgusting isn't it!?

Over the past eight years I'm not even slightly proud to be an American anymore. Thank the current gov't for the mess. They just suckered every not-too-bright American to borrow waaaaaay beyond their means. Sort of like bringing the fantasy world of Las Vegas to everybody's front door. Gambling was _supposed_ to be illegal in almost all States. Sorry for the OT.

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Jun 13, 2008 2:39:19 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

I would gladly swap governments with you MMD right now. We can't get rid of our un-elected Prime Minister until 2010.

...we digress

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Jun 13, 2008 3:36:17 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

Quote:
Alex_997TurboRSC said:
I would gladly swap governments with you MMD right now. We can't get rid of our un-elected Prime Minister until 2010.

...we digress

Can we just swap MMD for you?

Just kidding. Kind of.

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Jun 13, 2008 3:59:05 PM

TT Surgeon: Senior; Loc: Long Island, NY , United States; Posts: 783, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

Personally ,I'm very proud to be an American, especially over the last 8 years.

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Jun 13, 2008 9:36:46 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

Quote:
SoCal Alan said:
Quote:
Alex_997TurboRSC said:
I would gladly swap governments with you MMD right now. We can't get rid of our un-elected Prime Minister until 2010.

...we digress

Can we just swap MMD for you?

Just kidding. Kind of.

LOL... . In real life even I'm sometimes surprised that I'm fun to be around and people do like me.

OTOH, I don't blame you. You're lucky though; you guys get to log off. I'm stuck with myself all day!

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Jun 14, 2008 5:45:22 PM

KMM: Expert; Loc: Boston, MA , United States; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 5, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

So to summarize the sentiments against the new motor being appropriate for a future turbo:

a) Even though we know nothing at this point about the durability, tunability, etc. of the new motor, the concern is that it won't live up to the expectations set by the GT1;

b) The only reasonable justification I saw posted was the fact that this engine has not been subjected to, and evolved within, the cauldron of racing.

c) The whole thing is chalked up to cost cutting pressures.

All good points. I'm still thinking, why not give it the benefit of the doubt? I assume this will be the basis for the cup cars in the future, if it becomes the basis for the turbo.
If one considers the BMW M3 V8 and M5 V10, have these engines actually raced? They seem like pretty impressive engines. What about Lamborghini's engines? Does the racing seen by Ferrari's V8 differ much from Porsche Cup racing?

Now, someone is going to argue that these engines don't see much after-market tuning; I wonder if that has more to do with the lack of turbocharging on these engines, and the attendant difficulty in getting much more out of them than the factory already delivers...

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Jun 14, 2008 6:00:55 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: KMM

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

Quote:
KMM said:
So to summarize the sentiments against the new motor being appropriate for a future turbo:

All good point on the summary. Another often overlooked advantage of the old-style 964/993/GT1 setup is that the cylinders bolt onto the crankcase, so they can easily be replaced or even exchanged with larger ones (3.8L or more is easy)...

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Jun 14, 2008 6:37:16 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: KMM

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

Quote:
KMM said:
If one considers the BMW M3 V8 and M5 V10, have these engines actually raced? They seem like pretty impressive engines. What about Lamborghini's engines? Does the racing seen by Ferrari's V8 differ much from Porsche Cup racing?

Don't a lot of these engines break down a lot and also catch on fire?

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Jun 18, 2008 10:06:40 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59609, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: JCNPB

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

Quote:
JCNPB said:
We sports car enthusiasts have to accept the current reality for automobiles. Auto manufacturers are being forced to change the way engines work in order to comply with laws that require a reduction in emissions and improved miles/gallon. Porsche is no exception. The engineering equation that balances the parameters of performance, reliability, emissions, and gas mileage is being modified by laws designed to improve emissions and gas mileage. Unless there are major engineering improvements to engines, performance and/or reliability will have to be compromised to meet environmental requirements. My 997TT could be the last great Turbo with an internal combustion engine. Time will tell us if Porsche engineering can retain all of the performance and reliability that we cherish in our cars while meeting government mandates.

Very good observation, indeed.

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Jun 22, 2008 10:53:21 PM

electrao: Junior; Loc: Lisbon , Portugal; Posts: 120, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 10, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

Right on the money, literally :P

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Jun 24, 2008 10:45:23 PM

KMM: Expert; Loc: Boston, MA , United States; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 5, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

I remember the 930 in 1979 -- the special edition of the last 50 unit in the US. The consensus at the time was that was the end of a great era, that there would be nothing like this again, with this level of performance (approx. 260 HP in the US), due to tightening emission regulations and fuel economy standards. And indeed, the US had to go without a 930 for several years. But then look what happened since... Levels of power and performance unimagined then. I can't imagine choosing an old 930 any of the current cars, even a Boxster S! (And some accuse me of being the nostalgic / packrat sort!)

History repeating itself?

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Jun 25, 2008 2:55:54 AM

TT Surgeon: Senior; Loc: Long Island, NY , United States; Posts: 783, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: KMM

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

Not this time I'm afraid.

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Jun 25, 2008 2:01:11 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: KMM

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

Quote:
KMM said:
I can't imagine choosing an old 930 any of the current cars, even a Boxster S! (And some accuse me of being the nostalgic / packrat sort!)

There are many fanatics that will tell you the 1978/1979 930 is the finest street-legal turbocharged Porsche ever built. Easily and cheaply modified for well over 450hp and lightweight (relatively) and the first application of Brembo 4-piston brakes and great manual steering. Compare used prices of a nice example to a 2000 Boxster S and the market will prefer the 930...

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Jun 25, 2008 6:52:14 PM

Texas911: Senior; Loc: Houston, Texas - USA; Posts: 766, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

If it beats the GTR, Porsche will sell boat loads regardless of GT1 block or not.

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Jun 25, 2008 7:53:53 PM

TT Surgeon: Senior; Loc: Long Island, NY , United States; Posts: 783, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: Texas911

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

I think porsche REALLY wants to destroy the gtr. However, potential porsche tt buyers are probably not cross shopping nissans.

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Jun 26, 2008 2:46:19 AM

Atzporsche: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Vancouver , Canada; Posts: 9118, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 7, 2005; Reply to: TT Surgeon

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

You guys, all car enthusiasts only make up a very small percentage of the potential buyers. Guys most of the turbo buyers buy it to have a 911 Turbo! They don't know the first thing about engines and could not care less what the specific engine derived from or it's racing genes.

It would be sad but will likely be bound to happen eventually as Porsche like all others is trying to maximize profits even further.

Wag of my finger to them for that.

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Jun 26, 2008 11:54:22 AM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

Quote:
MMD said:
If they change over, and they probably will because that's "progress," the aura of (or sound reasoning for) the GT1-inspired engine will last for a few years and then be forgotten. Heck..., maybe it will last for less than a few years! How long is the warrenty on new engine?

This debate has two possibilities for the future, say 2018:

1. guys will be saying, "Make sure you get a 2007 or 2008 Turbo if you're looking to buy a classic Turbo.

or

2. too bad gas is us$50 a gallon. Otherwise it would be cool to find and buy an old 2007 or 2008 Porsche Turbo.

I thought that the new turbo engine won't be out until 2010. Isn't the MY2009 turbo getting only an interior facelift; i.e. PCM touch screen, etc... ?

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