Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread

    Jun 11, 2008 1:30:04 AM

    KMM
    Expert
    KMM
    Loc: Boston, MA , United States
    Posts: 1745, Gallery
    Registered on: Feb 5, 2004

    Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    I'm surprised this has not been discussed recently following the unveiling of the new 911 motor design. (If I missed the thread, I apologize, but here goes...)

    Some time ago, there was a discussion concerning the future of the turbo motor, more generally the GT1 derived motor (GT2, GT3, Turbo). There were rumors that future turbo motors would be based on the standard 911 motor, and no longer on the older GT1 design. If I recall, many board participants thought that would be a terrible idea, understandably so given the less than stellar track record of the M96.

    Now that the 997.5 motor design has been unveiled, what are people's thoughts on its suitability as a basis for the GT and turbo models? From what I have read, it looks like a pretty good design...

    Kamal (MA)

    Jun 11, 2008 3:57:52 AM

    TT Surgeon
    Senior
    TT Surgeon
    Loc: Long Island, NY , United States
    Posts: 783, Gallery
    Registered on: Dec 28, 2004
    Reply to: KMM

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    My opinion hasn't changed, kinda like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

    Jun 11, 2008 12:50:17 PM

    bostonmini
    Veteran
    bostonmini
    Loc:
    Posts: 924, Gallery
    Registered on: Oct 31, 2003
    Reply to: TT Surgeon

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    my thoughts are that this will have to be the future engine if RC is correct, the original turbo block is not suited for DI application; and this is clearly the future. This will likely be fine for people leaving their cars stock, as what I imagine is, the 911 will get lighter, and as such, performance of the engine won't have to change much.

    Jun 11, 2008 1:19:17 PM

    TB993tt
    Rennteam Pro
    TB993tt
    Loc: manchester , United Kingdom
    Posts: 2280, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 22, 2002
    Reply to: TT Surgeon

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    I would really like to know the answer to this as I would certainly buy a "last of the GT1 blocked" 997tt new to cherish (and tune) for the next 10 years.
    The headlines for the new n/a DI motor talk about "closed deck" and infer that this is a strong(er) motor but is that just to give people stung by the old POS (RMS failure prone) motor some confidence to buy the new one ?

    There is no doubt in my mind Porsche will easily be able to "get away with" a development of this new motor with a couple of turbos and ~500hp, 99.9% of future turbo customers will have no idea and frankly no interest in this subject, they will be more than happy with Porsche marketing's explanation of all the benefits of this new "highest tech" DI turbo unit.....

    A problem for Porsche is that whether they like it or not, some of their "Halo" effect comes from the higher profile tuners, they win the Tuner GP every year, the fastest top speed cars are usually 911s - I don't know how important this factor is but the new motor is not going to lend itself to big ouputs in the way the race proven GT1 is/was.

    Of course the main motivation for Porsche has to be profit, the GT1 motors still cost around the Pounds25K mark compared to the M97's ~Pounds6K so a turbo version is bound to make sense for them from this Porsche's most important angle.

    Jun 11, 2008 1:35:21 PM

    STRADALE
    Rennteam VIP
    STRADALE
    Loc: NY , United States
    Posts: 11075, Gallery
    Registered on: Mar 9, 2005
    Reply to: TB993tt

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Could summerize the positives of the current GT1 motor compared to the possibility/negatives of using the 997 S motor? tia!

    Jun 11, 2008 2:01:25 PM

    TB993tt
    Rennteam Pro
    TB993tt
    Loc: manchester , United Kingdom
    Posts: 2280, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 22, 2002
    Reply to: STRADALE

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Could summerize the positives of the current GT1 motor compared to the possibility/negatives of using the 997 S motor? tia!



    A lot depends on how "strong" the new n/a DI motor turns out to be.
    One has to remember where the "GT1" comes from, the bottom end dates back to late '80s and in the '90s the 993GT2 EVO's raced reliably with 650hp then of course the exotic racers like GT1 took it to another level all of which contributed to finding the weaknesses and resolving them, what we have in the latest 997tt is the culmulation of THE most rigorous and harsh development test bed of any engine in production IMO.

    The new engine may well be stronger (bloody hope so than the 996/997 RMS special) and when/if Porsche turbocharge it it may well be acceptably reliable at its ~500hp rating but there is no substitute for the aforementioned "hard yards" which the GT1 motor has endured and triumphed.....

    Then of course how high will the "ceiling" be for tuning the new DI tt ? Are Porsche worried ? maybe not, they don't condone tuning of any kind but surely they like to see tuned 911s doing "the business" around the world ? maybe not ?

    Jun 11, 2008 2:13:43 PM

    KresoF1
    Rennteam VIP
    KresoF1
    Loc: Croatia , Croatia
    Posts: 7856, Gallery
    Registered on: Dec 3, 2005
    Reply to: TB993tt

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Here is one of the rumors that I heard(IMHO pure speculation):

    -new 997.2 Turbo engine will be based on 3614ccm Carrera engine but, with DRY SUMP
    -it will use DFI of course
    -VTG turbos? Maybe new smaller and more responsive ones...
    -10,5:1 compression ration(simply said NOT possible with current engine) which means almost NO playground for tuning
    -500hp and maximally 700Nm of turque but, with virtually NO turbo lag at all
    -power curve and torque curve much broader then before
    -PDK of course
    -performance wise 320km/h and 0-100km/h in 3.7s(3.5s with LC) for PDK
    -LSD standard with PDK
    -PDK may be the ONLY gearbox option

    Jun 11, 2008 3:04:13 PM

    MMD
    Rennteam VIP
    MMD
    Loc: usa
    Posts: 9652, Gallery
    Registered on: Dec 16, 2004
    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Negatives of changeover? My us$.02: with the non "bullet-proof" GT1 engine? In the future I will never even consider buying a used turbo.

    Jun 11, 2008 3:40:03 PM

    Moogle
    Rennteam Master
    Moogle
    Loc: Bay Area , United States
    Posts: 5019, Gallery
    Registered on: Aug 9, 2003
    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Result... the tuning industry for the turbo (which is huge) will totally shun the new car... it's a shame they are cost-cutting-butchering the best all around car in their entire lineup (Turbo)

    Jun 11, 2008 4:11:36 PM

    reginos
    Rennteam VIP
    reginos
    Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus
    Posts: 12130, Gallery
    Registered on: Mar 20, 2005
    Reply to: Moogle

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    Result... the tuning industry for the turbo (which is huge) will totally shun the new car... it's a shame they are cost-cutting-butchering the best all around car in their entire lineup (Turbo)


    I cannot understand this concervatism about the "sacred engine block" that is based on the air-cooled engine and has similarities with an engine that won LM 10 years ago.
    For God's sake let things evolve and stop living in the past. And I don't believe that the motive for every change is cost cutting and profit. There maybe a variety of good reasons for dropping an engine (if this is the case) like emissions, consumption,weight, compatibility with new technologies etc and the competent Weissach engineers are the appropriate people to decide.

    Jun 11, 2008 4:43:13 PM

    MMD
    Rennteam VIP
    MMD
    Loc: usa
    Posts: 9652, Gallery
    Registered on: Dec 16, 2004
    Reply to: reginos

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Quote:
    reginos said:

    I cannot understand this concervatism about the "sacred engine block" that is based on the air-cooled engine and has similarities with an engine that won LM 10 years ago.




    The way my [fill in adjective] mind grasps it?

    The amt of HP produced per liter in a TT is no joke. You'd figure you'd want a serious engine block to handle it. I guess the racing version of the GT1 engine can handle alot more HP than the street version.

    Unless Porsche can EXPLAIN WHY new engine is BETTER SUITED than GT1-based to handle relatively massive HP for a street car _THEN_ i gotta assume they are cheapening it down.

    IOW, Porsche discovered the average Betty and Bob just buy the turbo because it's got lots of HP don't care nor think about keeping the car past warrenty.

    Most of all B&B will never track the car.

    As I said I think it's reasonable to want the high-output high-stressed engine in my P-car to have a racing application (however distant). Apparently Porsche has deemed that to be unnecessary. Should I trust that they have my post-warrenty interests in mind?

    Jun 11, 2008 5:00:07 PM

    bostonmini
    Veteran
    bostonmini
    Loc:
    Posts: 924, Gallery
    Registered on: Oct 31, 2003
    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    I suspect Kreso is right on the money...

    Jun 11, 2008 5:30:35 PM

    xandi911
    Senior
    xandi911
    Loc: brasil
    Posts: 688, Gallery
    Registered on: Feb 14, 2006
    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Here is one of the rumors that I heard(IMHO pure speculation):

    -new 997.2 Turbo engine will be based on 3614ccm Carrera engine but, with DRY SUMP
    -it will use DFI of course
    -VTG turbos? Maybe new smaller and more responsive ones...
    -10,5:1 compression ration(simply said NOT possible with current engine) which means almost NO playground for tuning
    -500hp and maximally 700Nm of turque but, with virtually NO turbo lag at all
    -power curve and torque curve much broader then before
    -PDK of course
    -performance wise 320km/h and 0-100km/h in 3.7s(3.5s with LC) for PDK
    -LSD standard with PDK
    -PDK may be the ONLY gearbox option


    if this is true, really bad news...

    and if the new block be as/more resistent of the LEGENDARY GT1 ??

    Jun 11, 2008 7:28:19 PM

    Crash
    Rennteam VIP
    Crash
    Loc: Never been to , Antarctica
    Posts: 8287, Gallery
    Registered on: Oct 17, 2002
    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Here is one of the rumors that I heard(IMHO pure speculation):

    -new 997.2 Turbo engine will be based on 3614ccm Carrera engine but, with DRY SUMP
    -it will use DFI of course
    -VTG turbos? Maybe new smaller and more responsive ones...
    -10,5:1 compression ration(simply said NOT possible with current engine) which means almost NO playground for tuning
    -500hp and maximally 700Nm of turque but, with virtually NO turbo lag at all
    -power curve and torque curve much broader then before
    -PDK of course
    -performance wise 320km/h and 0-100km/h in 3.7s(3.5s with LC) for PDK
    -LSD standard with PDK
    -PDK may be the ONLY gearbox option



    Bye-bye Turbo and hello LP560 and F142...

    Jun 11, 2008 7:32:06 PM

    TT Surgeon
    Senior
    TT Surgeon
    Loc: Long Island, NY , United States
    Posts: 783, Gallery
    Registered on: Dec 28, 2004
    Reply to: xandi911

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    ^I heard the same thing, only with a Integrated Dry SUMP.

    Jun 11, 2008 7:34:19 PM

    KresoF1
    Rennteam VIP
    KresoF1
    Loc: Croatia , Croatia
    Posts: 7856, Gallery
    Registered on: Dec 3, 2005
    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Why? Perfect car... 997.2TT for current 997TT TIP costumers...

    Want something different? Wait and buy R8 V10 with MANUAL gearbox. 525ps should be enough...

    OR... 997.2 Carrera S-SPASM, PCCB and manual gearbox-purist choice. In fact a great choice...

    Jun 11, 2008 10:55:52 PM

    Nugget
    Co-Pilot
    Nugget
    Loc: Houston Texas USA , United States
    Posts: 237, Gallery
    Registered on: Oct 29, 2006
    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Bye-bye Turbo and hello LP560 and F142...



    Why is this? Do the LP560 and the F142 use the GT1 engine?

    I'm with reginos on this one. You have to make room for progress and all this whinging and hand-wringing over an engine that not a single person here has ever seen seems sort of premature.

    Jun 11, 2008 11:19:57 PM

    Crash
    Rennteam VIP
    Crash
    Loc: Never been to , Antarctica
    Posts: 8287, Gallery
    Registered on: Oct 17, 2002
    Reply to: Nugget

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Quote:
    Nugget said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Bye-bye Turbo and hello LP560 and F142...



    Why is this? Do the LP560 and the F142 use the GT1 engine?

    I'm with reginos on this one. You have to make room for progress and all this whinging and hand-wringing over an engine that not a single person here has ever seen seems sort of premature.



    I'm all for progress, but replacing a race-tested engine with a several-times-cheaper alternative isn't my idea of progress. The 964 block is bullet-proof. The M96 block isn't and this is just an upgrade of the M96. No way would I ever buy such a Turbo.

    Jun 12, 2008 1:25:37 AM

    JCNPB Offline
    Newbie
    JCNPB
    Loc:
    Posts: 32, Gallery
    Registered on: Mar 5, 2004
    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    We sports car enthusiasts have to accept the current reality for automobiles. Auto manufacturers are being forced to change the way engines work in order to comply with laws that require a reduction in emissions and improved miles/gallon. Porsche is no exception. The engineering equation that balances the parameters of performance, reliability, emissions, and gas mileage is being modified by laws designed to improve emissions and gas mileage. Unless there are major engineering improvements to engines, performance and/or reliability will have to be compromised to meet environmental requirements. My 997TT could be the last great Turbo with an internal combustion engine. Time will tell us if Porsche engineering can retain all of the performance and reliability that we cherish in our cars while meeting government mandates.

    Jun 12, 2008 2:02:35 AM

    TT Surgeon
    Senior
    TT Surgeon
    Loc: Long Island, NY , United States
    Posts: 783, Gallery
    Registered on: Dec 28, 2004
    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    Nugget said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Bye-bye Turbo and hello LP560 and F142...



    Why is this? Do the LP560 and the F142 use the GT1 engine?

    I'm with reginos on this one. You have to make room for progress and all this whinging and hand-wringing over an engine that not a single person here has ever seen seems sort of premature.



    I'm all for progress, but replacing a race-tested engine with a several-times-cheaper alternative isn't my idea of progress. The 964 block is bullet-proof. The M96 block isn't and this is just an upgrade of the M96. No way would I ever buy such a Turbo.


    Crash, once again I agree with you 100%. This is purely profit driven-demographic studied change that is NOT for the best imo.

    Jun 12, 2008 3:46:18 AM

    eclou Offline
    Veteran
    eclou
    Loc: Texas , United States
    Posts: 1182, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 4, 2006
    Reply to: TT Surgeon

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    This only portends the future desirability of our current turbos!

    Jun 12, 2008 8:45:45 AM

    Alex_997TT
    Rennteam Master
    Alex_997TT
    Loc: Reading , United Kingdom
    Posts: 3320, Gallery
    Registered on: Nov 20, 2005
    Reply to: TB993tt

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Of course the main motivation for Porsche has to be profit, the GT1 motors still cost around the Pounds25K mark compared to the M97's ~Pounds6K so a turbo version is bound to make sense for them from this Porsche's most important angle.



    This says it all for me. You can't tell me a drop in cost by that much is in any way 'progress'. Sure a Turbo version would be a little more than Pounds6k but still...

    Jun 12, 2008 8:52:08 AM

    SciFrog Offline
    Rennteam VIP
    SciFrog
    Loc: USA , United States
    Posts: 9870, Gallery
    Registered on: Nov 15, 2005
    Reply to: Alex_997TT

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    IMHO Porsche should go with the new M97 block for the regular TT but pass on the savings to the costumer (ie $10k price drop). Also offer PDK only on that model and make standard LSD and Sports Crono. Maybe PCCB standard.

    Then come out with the GT2 much sooner in the cycle with a GT1 derived DI engine, but increase production vs the 997GT2 and reduce slightly the price. Let this model come in manual or a race oriented PDK, as you would hope it comes with the GT3.

    But all that won't happen...

    Jun 12, 2008 10:43:34 AM

    Alex_997TT
    Rennteam Master
    Alex_997TT
    Loc: Reading , United Kingdom
    Posts: 3320, Gallery
    Registered on: Nov 20, 2005
    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    I personally like having a modifiable 500+ bhp Turbo with 4wd. It makes it more usable on the public roads where my car spends 99% of it's life.

    I don't want to be forced into a 2wd 530bhp widowmaker for the sake of keeping the GT1 derived engine block.

    Jun 12, 2008 11:02:51 AM

    Crash
    Rennteam VIP
    Crash
    Loc: Never been to , Antarctica
    Posts: 8287, Gallery
    Registered on: Oct 17, 2002
    Reply to: Alex_997TT

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Quote:
    Alex_997TurboRSC said:
    I personally like having a modifiable 500+ bhp Turbo with 4wd. It makes it more usable on the public roads where my car spends 99% of it's life.

    I don't want to be forced into a 2wd 530bhp widowmaker for the sake of keeping the GT1 derived engine block.



    Exactly. Most guys here probably think like that. I do have a question though: If the DI technology is unsuited for the 964 block, what do they intend to do with the GT2? I'm pretty sure that car will come with the old block, regardless of the supposed 'technical limitations' .

    Jun 12, 2008 12:35:23 PM

    eclou Offline
    Veteran
    eclou
    Loc: Texas , United States
    Posts: 1182, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 4, 2006
    Reply to: Crash

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    I don't see how DI is unsuitable for the block. DI is something that is built into the head and should be easily done to cast a modified head. The block itself should be unchanged. If Porsche has already done the DI to the GT3 heads then it should be no problem to do it to the similar TT head

    Jun 12, 2008 12:41:39 PM

    TB993tt
    Rennteam Pro
    TB993tt
    Loc: manchester , United Kingdom
    Posts: 2280, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 22, 2002
    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    IMHO Porsche should go with the new M97 block for the regular TT but pass on the savings to the costumer (ie $10k price drop). Also offer PDK only on that model and make standard LSD and Sports Crono. Maybe PCCB standard.

    Then come out with the GT2 much sooner in the cycle with a GT1 derived DI engine, but increase production vs the 997GT2 and reduce slightly the price. Let this model come in manual or a race oriented PDK, as you would hope it comes with the GT3.

    But all that won't happen...



    I am with this also....

    There is no way Porsche should stay with the GT1 block for the next turbo, what is the point, 99% of customers do not care, have zero interest as long as they are told in a nice tecchy way (by Porsche marketing) that their new tt has the latest and greatest tech. As long as Porsche can make the new tt motor cost effective warranty wise they will do it.

    They should really try and keep the price of the car down to compensate for the cheaper motor, this is important.

    For the anoraks like most of us who frequent these forums why not do a turbo RS model using the GT1 block, lightened slightly ~50kg, 4WD better chassis hardware, charge GT2 money or more.... It does not have to be THAT hard core but if it is marketed as such then it will put off the 99% "non anorak" brigade, they will think it is a track car and not be interested and it gives the enthusiasts the option to pay for what they want...

    Jun 12, 2008 2:00:04 PM

    SciFrog Offline
    Rennteam VIP
    SciFrog
    Loc: USA , United States
    Posts: 9870, Gallery
    Registered on: Nov 15, 2005
    Reply to: TB993tt

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    One could argue the new TT block won't be with a dry sump pump and thus not suitable for the track. Well first Porsche probably doesn't want TT on the track anyway, and second this is no different than N/A 997, people do track them anyway.

    Jun 12, 2008 3:02:31 PM

    tortesq1
    Co-Pilot
    tortesq1
    Loc: Long Island, NY
    Posts: 172, Gallery
    Registered on: Oct 1, 2006
    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    You guts are fighting progress with the PDK system. I'd rather have paddles, BUT since NONE of us have tried out a 998TT with PDK it behooves us to wait and be patient. Furthermore, almost all Ferrari drivers universally panned the F-1 system when it came out in 1998 or thereabouts. Today, it is rare indeed to find any enthusiast ordering an F car without the F-1 tranny. Maybe the new PDK system and the 998TT powerplant will suck and just maybe it will be phenominal. Give technology a chance to make our cars better and all of better drivers. My 2 cents.

    Jun 12, 2008 3:40:34 PM

    roadtrip
    Veteran
    roadtrip
    Loc: new mexico, usa
    Posts: 1172, Gallery
    Registered on: May 31, 2006
    Reply to: tortesq1

    Re: Elephant in the room: Future Turbo Motor

    just curious as to best guess as to when official mfg.info on this issue might be relesaed
     
    Edit

    Forum

    1. All 

    Boards

     
    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 4/17/24 7:16 AM
    GnilM     		779188 1798
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 4/7/24 11:48 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS     		442233 565
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 5/12/23 12:11 PM
    W8MM     		263102 288
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 3/12/24 8:28 AM
    DJM48     		261379 323
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA     		85612 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/15/24 1:23 PM
    CGX car nut     		5803 50
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    		 881080 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant     		817494 3868
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry     		391522 1526
    Porsche GT4RS 4/21/24 11:50 AM
    mcdelaug     		391094 1454
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut     		373415 2401
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker     		369211 797
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 4/11/24 12:32 PM
    Ferdie     		289580 668
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    		 261615 812
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug     		240492 346
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel     		230913 101
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel     		221420 488
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug     		169605 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut     		141356 144
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA     		117871 303
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM     		108878 685
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/7/24 4:22 PM
    WhoopsyM     		84399 239
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame     		75241 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM     		53969 314
    Motor Sp. Porsche 963 3/16/24 9:27 PM
    WhoopsyM     		25293 237
    Ferrari Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6) 1/21/24 4:29 PM
    GT-Boy     		21195 103
    BMW M 2022 BMW M5 CS 4/8/24 1:43 PM
    Ferdie     		19553 140
    AMG G63 sold out 9/15/23 7:38 PM
    Nico997     		16604 120
    AMG [2022] Mercedes-AMG SL 4/23/24 1:24 PM
    RCA     		13865 225
    Motor Sp. 24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018 5/25/23 10:42 PM
    Grant     		11276 55
    126 items found, displaying 1 to 30.