Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: New 997 - full specs - Page2

Jun 6, 2008 9:18:59 AM

SteveD: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom; Posts: 247, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003

New 997 - full specs

We will be driving and filming the new 911 and we would like to know what you think 'before' we test it. Tell us what you would like to see and hear, and we will then aim to capture as many of your points as we can.

The full technical specs are available below, and our first impressions will be published on DR in the next hour.

http://www.drivers-republic.com/pdf/DR_911_Carrera_Coupe_Cabrio_GB.pdf

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Jun 6, 2008 9:31:38 AM

temm: Rennteam Master; Loc: Oslo , Norway; Posts: 4122, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 24, 2003; Reply to: SteveD

Re: New 997 - full specs

Damn - 62 pages - thanks

I'm interested in hearing how long it takes before you accidentally hit one the (stupid) shift buttons on the steering wheel in a PDK car while doing some spirited driving

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Jun 6, 2008 9:48:11 AM

temm: Rennteam Master; Loc: Oslo , Norway; Posts: 4122, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 24, 2003; Reply to: temm

Re: New 997 - full specs

Interesting:

Quote:
Porsche's new double-clutch transmission comes with seven forward and one reverse gear.
Gears 1 - 6 have a sporting and dynamic ratio, with the car reaching its top speed in sixth
gear. The seventh gear, therefore, features a long transmission ratio in the interest of enhanced
fuel economy.

And even more stupid than I thought (I had hoped that they at least had left - downshift, right - upshift)

Quote:
Shifting gears on the selector lever or directly on the steering wheel

The driver of a new 911 Carrera with PDK transmission is able to use the very helpful func -
tions of the double-clutch transmission either via gearshift paddles on the steering wheel
spokes of the newly developed PDK steering wheel measuring 370 millimetres or 14.6''
across or through the selector lever in the centre console also coming in new design. The
steering wheel in its sporting three-spoke design features two ergonomically arranged gear -
shift paddles operated by pressing either forwards or backwards and thus allowing precise
and intuitive use in all positions of the steering wheel. Pressing the paddles from the front,
the driver shifts up, pressing the paddles from behind the steering wheel, he shifts down to
a lower gear. In either case it is irrelevant whether the driver uses the right or left paddle.

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Jun 6, 2008 9:50:50 AM

ed_moree: Rennteam Pro; Loc: spain , China; Posts: 2408, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 15, 2005; Reply to: SteveD

Re: New 997 - full specs

Thanks and good job for the 24H of Nurburgring report! I will really like to know if you agree with me than in a car with the accelerations like the 911 is better changing gears up, with the stick (I'm talking about the PDK of course), by pulling to you than pushing forward. And all this due to the inertia created by the acceleration. thanks

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Jun 6, 2008 10:01:40 AM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: ed_moree

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
ed_moree said:
Thanks and good job for the 24H of Nurburgring report! I will really like to know if you agree with me than in a car with the accelerations like the 911 is better changing gears up, with the stick (I'm talking about the PDK of course), by pulling to you than pushing forward. And all this due to the inertia created by the acceleration. thanks

When you drive a manual car you change up or down sometimes by pushing sometimes by pulling depending on which gear you want to engage. I cannot really see the relevance of this "pull vs push" debate.

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Jun 6, 2008 11:40:38 AM

intouch1: Rennteam Master; Loc: Red Sea , Egypt; Posts: 5754, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2004; Reply to: reginos

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
reginos said:
Quote:
ed_moree said:
Thanks and good job for the 24H of Nurburgring report! I will really like to know if you agree with me than in a car with the accelerations like the 911 is better changing gears up, with the stick (I'm talking about the PDK of course), by pulling to you than pushing forward. And all this due to the inertia created by the acceleration. thanks

When you drive a manual car you change up or down sometimes by pushing sometimes by pulling depending on which gear you want to engage. I cannot really see the relevance of this "pull vs push" debate.

+1 just as if first gear is in fron or in the back....you get used to it.

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Jun 6, 2008 3:12:06 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: intouch1

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
intouch1 said:
Quote:
reginos said:
Quote:
ed_moree said:
Thanks and good job for the 24H of Nurburgring report! I will really like to know if you agree with me than in a car with the accelerations like the 911 is better changing gears up, with the stick (I'm talking about the PDK of course), by pulling to you than pushing forward. And all this due to the inertia created by the acceleration. thanks

When you drive a manual car you change up or down sometimes by pushing sometimes by pulling depending on which gear you want to engage. I cannot really see the relevance of this "pull vs push" debate.

+1 just as if first gear is in fron or in the back....you get used to it.

+2

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Jun 7, 2008 6:21:29 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: reginos

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
reginos said:
Quote:
ed_moree said:
Thanks and good job for the 24H of Nurburgring report! I will really like to know if you agree with me than in a car with the accelerations like the 911 is better changing gears up, with the stick (I'm talking about the PDK of course), by pulling to you than pushing forward. And all this due to the inertia created by the acceleration. thanks

When you drive a manual car you change up or down sometimes by pushing sometimes by pulling depending on which gear you want to engage. I cannot really see the relevance of this "pull vs push" debate.

Except in a tuned turbo in which at full boost it's an effort just to keep one's hands on the steering wheel.

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Jun 7, 2008 7:19:59 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: reginos

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
reginos said:
Quote:
ed_moree said:
Thanks and good job for the 24H of Nurburgring report! I will really like to know if you agree with me than in a car with the accelerations like the 911 is better changing gears up, with the stick (I'm talking about the PDK of course), by pulling to you than pushing forward. And all this due to the inertia created by the acceleration. thanks

When you drive a manual car you change up or down sometimes by pushing sometimes by pulling depending on which gear you want to engage. I cannot really see the relevance of this "pull vs push" debate.

Excellent observation.

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Jun 7, 2008 7:23:59 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: ADias

Re: New 997 - full specs

I personally think these button/paddles or whatever on the steering wheel is very logical.

If you really think about it while driving your hands won't loose contact with the steering wheel at all, wheather is down-shift or up-shift.

I like it to be honest. It may not look as cool as the paddles we see in Ferrari or BMW or Aston but its practicality is beyond looks.

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Jun 7, 2008 9:02:32 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
I personally think these button/paddles or whatever on the steering wheel is very logical.

If you really think about it while driving your hands won't loose contact with the steering wheel at all, wheather is down-shift or up-shift.

I like it to be honest. It may not look as cool as the paddles we see in Ferrari or BMW or Aston but its practicality is beyond looks.

Ron,
I will disagree here little bit...

You simply can not talk about practicality before you try it for yourself. How sensitive the puddles(paddles-buttons) are? We do not know it yet. How fast is the response? Very fast? I hope so...

I like PDF about 85% only... Why? It is aimed to TIP costumers, NOT to manual ones...

Other rumor that I do not like at all is what version is actually faster around Ring... How about this-Sport Auto already requested 997S with PCCB, PASM Sport and PDK for Supertest BUT... Porsche said that they will send the fastest version...

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Jun 7, 2008 9:07:49 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
I like it to be honest. It may not look as cool as the paddles we see in Ferrari .........

I think you have hit the nail on the head, Ron.

Some people just want paddles so that they could fantasize that they are Michael Schumacher when they cruise down Main Street.

Then Porsche spoilt their fun by introducing a PDK transmission with toggle switches.

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Jun 7, 2008 9:47:11 PM

davew (cincy): Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 1164, Gallery; Registered on: May 10, 2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: New 997 - full specs

Not to down-play the importance of physical interface with the controls, but it seems to me that an aftermarket wheel (with paddles) could be installed to alter this.

Shame to spend more money to accomplish that, but it should be very possible.

I for one will give it an open-minded try first before passing judgment. In any event, I'm sure it will take a while to get used to it.

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Jun 7, 2008 10:58:52 PM

SteveD: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom; Posts: 247, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
KresoF1 said:

You simply can not talk about practicality before you try it for yourself. How sensitive the puddles(paddles-buttons) are? We do not know it yet. How fast is the response? Very fast? I hope so...

Other rumor that I do not like at all is what version is actually faster around Ring... How about this-Sport Auto already requested 997S with PCCB, PASM Sport and PDK for Supertest BUT... Porsche said that they will send the fastest version...

We'll have to examine this point closely and let you know.

We've driven all of the double-clutch systems to date, and thus far favourite amongst most of us is that in the Nissan GT-R. I was overall disappointed with BMW's M-DCT, which felt like BMW were trying to cling on to the mechanical feel of SMG, which ended up making it feel quite artificial.

Let's see if Porsche start with a clean-sheet of paper, as Nissan did with the GT-R, or whether they try to create a 'better' form of Tiptronic, in which case I expect to dislike it. But we'll see.

I never liked the steering wheel buttons on Tiptronic systems, preferring an honest and straightforward paddle shift system. Even the rear buttons on my AMG ML63 felt more natural than the forward facing buttons of Tiptronic, but then I'm sure some people may feel different about that.

Anyway, if Porsche have followed the same route as BMW with their M-DCT system, then it will have been designed more so as an automatic than a manual. Even if this makes it more accelerative or quicker on a circuit, it will be the poorer choice in my opinion than the manual.

It will be interesting to find out. Chris Harris will be performing our review and filming the test, so I'll post a link when its up later in the week.

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Jun 7, 2008 11:01:19 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: SteveD

Monkey Boy

Quote:
It will be interesting to find out. Chris Harris will be performing our review and filming the test, so I'll post a link when its up later in the week.

Hey! Where did Monkey Boy end up? I've missed him from from Autocar and GTPP.

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Jun 7, 2008 11:08:42 PM

SteveD: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom; Posts: 247, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Monkey Boy

Quote:
Le Chef said:
Quote:
It will be interesting to find out. Chris Harris will be performing our review and filming the test, so I'll post a link when its up later in the week.

Hey! Where did Monkey Boy end up? I've missed him from from Autocar and GTPP.

He's now part of Drivers Republic.

Here's his first impressions on the new 911

http://www.drivers-republic.com/news/news_article_06_06_08.cfm

He should be online in our Dialogue section answering questions tomorrow, so ask him what he thinks.

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Jun 8, 2008 2:54:42 AM

jo2k: Newbie; Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada; Posts: 37, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 14, 2006; Reply to: ADias

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
reginos said:
Quote:
ed_moree said:
Thanks and good job for the 24H of Nurburgring report! I will really like to know if you agree with me than in a car with the accelerations like the 911 is better changing gears up, with the stick (I'm talking about the PDK of course), by pulling to you than pushing forward. And all this due to the inertia created by the acceleration. thanks

When you drive a manual car you change up or down sometimes by pushing sometimes by pulling depending on which gear you want to engage. I cannot really see the relevance of this "pull vs push" debate.

Excellent observation.

"But with the lever you push forwards to go up and pull back to go down, in other words the opposite to a race car 'box and, I reckon, the opposite to common sense. Try braking hard and trying a downshift and needing to pull the lever backwards as your body is being pushed forwards - it ain't natural. They've bucked convention with the paddles too, just like the old Tiptronic, each paddle can go up or down a gear. I'm fascinated to see how this works in progress, because on paper, it looks all wrong to me."

Chris Harris - New Porsche 911 Carrera - First Impressions

Couldn't have said it better myself...

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Jun 8, 2008 2:55:48 AM

jo2k: Newbie; Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada; Posts: 37, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 14, 2006; Reply to: ADias

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
reginos said:
Quote:
ed_moree said:
Thanks and good job for the 24H of Nurburgring report! I will really like to know if you agree with me than in a car with the accelerations like the 911 is better changing gears up, with the stick (I'm talking about the PDK of course), by pulling to you than pushing forward. And all this due to the inertia created by the acceleration. thanks

When you drive a manual car you change up or down sometimes by pushing sometimes by pulling depending on which gear you want to engage. I cannot really see the relevance of this "pull vs push" debate.

Excellent observation.

"But with the lever you push forwards to go up and pull back to go down, in other words the opposite to a race car 'box and, I reckon, the opposite to common sense. Try braking hard and trying a downshift and needing to pull the lever backwards as your body is being pushed forwards - it ain't natural. They've bucked convention with the paddles too, just like the old Tiptronic, each paddle can go up or down a gear. I'm fascinated to see how this works in progress, because on paper, it looks all wrong to me."
Chris Harris - New Porsche 911 Carrera - First Impressions

Couldn't have said it better myself...

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Jun 8, 2008 3:51:24 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: jo2k

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
jo2k said:
Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
reginos said:
Quote:
ed_moree said:
Thanks and good job for the 24H of Nurburgring report! I will really like to know if you agree with me than in a car with the accelerations like the 911 is better changing gears up, with the stick (I'm talking about the PDK of course), by pulling to you than pushing forward. And all this due to the inertia created by the acceleration. thanks

When you drive a manual car you change up or down sometimes by pushing sometimes by pulling depending on which gear you want to engage. I cannot really see the relevance of this "pull vs push" debate.

Excellent observation.

"But with the lever you push forwards to go up and pull back to go down, in other words the opposite to a race car 'box and, I reckon, the opposite to common sense. Try braking hard and trying a downshift and needing to pull the lever backwards as your body is being pushed forwards - it ain't natural. They've bucked convention with the paddles too, just like the old Tiptronic, each paddle can go up or down a gear. I'm fascinated to see how this works in progress, because on paper, it looks all wrong to me."

Chris Harris - New Porsche 911 Carrera - First Impressions

Couldn't have said it better myself...

You missed the point - the pertinent observation made by reginos. With a manual you have the odd gears moving forward and the even backwards. Half the time you upshift (or downshift) is in either direction. Doesn't the "inertia" argument apply to conventional H-pattern manuals? Of course it does, and the answer is it does not matter.

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Jun 8, 2008 11:34:56 AM

SteveD: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom; Posts: 247, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: ADias

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:

You missed the point - the pertinent observation made by reginos. With a manual you have the odd gears moving forward and the even backwards. Half the time you upshift (or downshift) is in either direction. Doesn't the "inertia" argument apply to conventional H-pattern manuals? Of course it does, and the answer is it does not matter.

I seem to remember that the early BMW steptronics used the same logic, i.e. changing down involved pulling the lever backwards, whilst changing up was achieved by moving it forwards. There wasn't just the interia argument , which somehow was more of an issue than with an H-pattern manual, but also the counter-intuitive sense of which way to move the lever.

Rather like rubbing your stomach with one hand and patting your head with the other, it was harder to do than initially expected, and I ended up reverting back to just driving it as an auto.

It may well be a matter of personal preference, so we may have to wait and listen to owners' feedback rather than the views of a journalist.

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Jun 8, 2008 11:56:35 AM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: SteveD

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
SteveD said:
Quote:

You missed the point - the pertinent observation made by reginos. With a manual you have the odd gears moving forward and the even backwards. Half the time you upshift (or downshift) is in either direction. Doesn't the "inertia" argument apply to conventional H-pattern manuals? Of course it does, and the answer is it does not matter.

I seem to remember that the early BMW steptronics used the same logic, i.e. changing down involved pulling the lever backwards, whilst changing up was achieved by moving it forwards. There wasn't just the interia argument , which somehow was more of an issue than with an H-pattern manual, but also the counter-intuitive sense of which way to move the lever.

Rather like rubbing your stomach with one hand and patting your head with the other, it was harder to do than initially expected, and I ended up reverting back to just driving it as an auto.

It may well be a matter of personal preference, so we may have to wait and listen to owners' feedback rather than the views of a journalist.

For me at least the intuitive way is to push to change up (forward motion) and pull to change down (motion like holding back something that wants to continue moving). So for me Porsche's way is the right way.
Of course there can be many different opinions and I hope that the 997.2 is so perfect that people just debate these very minor "push and pull" issues.

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Jun 8, 2008 12:50:33 PM

ed_moree: Rennteam Pro; Loc: spain , China; Posts: 2408, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 15, 2005; Reply to: reginos

Re: New 997 - full specs

To explain this easy. Try leaning forward when the car is accelerating, it requires you to double the effort. So whatever you do and try to tell that you get used to some things they are still no substitute for the natural. And in this case changing up by pushing is unnatural. Why do you think in an airplane being a commercial or a fighter you accelerate, or lift up, by pulling the lever and not by pushing? And this principle applies to more things than the logic should be one way while the natural way dictates the other way round. The manuals got us used to changing in a H pattern not because this is the best in any circumstance, but because this was the bet for the manuals.

Also if you take a look at this video at about 0:29s you will be surprised to see the way this pilot changes up in the Porsche cup car....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XWr0NCGo3I

It is interesting that in a race car where being efficient is more important than anything changing up means pulling instead of pushing.
So whatever you say the Porsche did it wrong this one.

You get used to bad food also but it doesn't mean that you should not improve your way of eating.

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Jun 9, 2008 9:22:41 AM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: SteveD

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
SteveD said:
The full technical specs are available below, and our first impressions will be published on DR in the next hour.

Thanks for posting, SteveD - interesting document

While everybody seems to focus on the PDK and the missing paddles

I'd be interested to hear opinions from some knowledgeable techies re the new engine block (see pages 18-22 for details).

Questions:
> RMS issue history ? (new two-piece crankcase)
> reduction of potentially oil starvation probs (though still using "integrated" dry sump) ?

TIA for any comments from those with an engineering background

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Jun 9, 2008 11:42:26 AM

MarekN: Pilot; Loc: Czech Republic; Posts: 409, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 7, 2006; Reply to: SteveD

Re: New 997 - full specs

The first impressions are not first impressions, but a summary of technical data. I'm not going hold that against you, magazines like evo do that as well, but still... Let's wait for first driving impressions, then.

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Jun 9, 2008 11:45:54 AM

MarekN: Pilot; Loc: Czech Republic; Posts: 409, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 7, 2006; Reply to: MarekN

Re: New 997 - full specs

As for the shift action, Porsche surely must've gotten into the same argument when deciding which way to do it. I fear that they went down the safer lane of watching out for idiotic owners suing them because the crashed due to the "wrong" logic applied to the shift stick.
In their Cup cars they prove that they know how to do it right. What other explanation is there in terms of the street car?

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Jun 10, 2008 3:06:28 AM

fredar: Newbie; Loc: Europe; Posts: 48, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2007; Reply to: SteveD

Re: New 997 - full specs

Yep. Journalists butterfly from car to car. Owning a car is a different story.

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Jun 12, 2008 5:47:42 PM

SteveD: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK, M3 CSL/X6 35d/TT , United Kingdom; Posts: 247, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: fredar

Re: New 997 - full specs

Just heard the news straight from the Head of Engine Development on the new 997, that there will be 'no more RMS engine issues on the 911'. That's a promise apparently.

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Jun 12, 2008 7:29:01 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: SteveD

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
SteveD said:
Just heard the news straight from the Head of Engine Development on the new 997, that there will be 'no more RMS engine issues on the 911'. That's a promise apparently.

I assumed that would be a priority with the new crankcase design. I think those RMS problems cost the company alot of money in warranty work...

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Jun 12, 2008 9:11:46 PM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
SteveD said:
Just heard the news straight from the Head of Engine Development on the new 997, that there will be 'no more RMS engine issues on the 911'. That's a promise apparently.

I assumed that would be a priority with the new crankcase design. I think those RMS problems cost the company alot of money in warranty work...

Also no Intermediate Shaft failures, because apparently they removed it all together!!

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Jun 12, 2008 9:25:41 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21158, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: SteveD

Re: New 997 - full specs

Quote:
SteveD said:
Just heard the news straight from the Head of Engine Development on the new 997, that there will be 'no more RMS engine issues on the 911'. That's a promise apparently.

wow, it only took them ten years to finally address the issue and correct it instead of playing the "RMS? I don't know what you are talking about" game while unofficially bringing out patch that promised to solve the issue year after year that never solved the problem

though this time I believe its true due to the long awaited redesign which was the only way to correct their design error.

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Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Monkey Boy

Re: Monkey Boy

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

Re: New 997 - full specs

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