Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Bilstein B16 Damptronic: A Must For The Turbo - Page16

Jun 28, 2011 11:11:17 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: Mikk

Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

Mikk:

Just got her back, Bilsteins installed with alignment and camber settings below. Didn't really get a chance to give her a serious test drive yet, but on the drive back from the service center the car feels much more sure footed, just solid all around.

As member mentioned, the suspension closes the gap between the off/sport settings. The difference between the two is definitely muted with a more sporty bias. The car no longer squats under throttle.

Overall a definite recommendation. Can't wait for the weekend to give her a more thorough work out.

Front
Camber -1.2
Caster 7.5
Toe 0.04

Rear
Camber -1.6
Toe 0.16

You've done your homework well. Essentially this is a stock Turbo alignment setting, except for more negative camber. The increase of front negative camber to -1.2 is essential, as it gives the car more front grip in corners. You will need that as the stiffer Bilstein springs mean you will now carry more speed during cornering. Turn in response is improved also (car is more eager to turn/rotate) and I think you will love it.

You're right the difference between Bilstein Normal and Bilstein Sport is not as dramatic as the stock car (You really have read this thread very carefully! Smiley ). Once you are used to the system though, the difference would become much more obvious. What's more important is the Bilstein Sport setting is actually useable - stiff but not harsh, and not so extremely jittery like the stock Sport setting.

I live in a hilly area in Los Angeles, so the stock Turbo was totally unacceptable because it leans/squats too much. I would have sold the car had it not for the Bilstein. BTW, the next step if you are interested, is stickier tires like Michelin Cup or Pirelli Corsa (what I have in my car). R compound tires are pure magic. My car had a little bit of "sliding" particular the rear, with Michelin PS2. Since I change to Pirelli Corsa, it's obvious the traction is now a level above the speed I normally drive on the street. Rear is planted rock solid and doesn't dance anymore.

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

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Aug 6, 2011 4:08:43 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: cannga

Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

Tire weight update - Michelin Pilot Super Sport, non N rated. Pilot Super Sport is newer and is related, at least by name, to Pilot Sport. Higher weight a little disappointing. OTOH look at the price difference between Pilor Super Sport ($1300) and Pilot Sport ($2000)!

I don't understand the significantly cheaper price, but I don't think I am going to complain about it.

Super Sport is claimed by Michelin to be "better" in many aspects: better in wet and dry road holding, 2 seconds faster in 1.6 mile course, higher tread rating of 300 vs. 220, 30,000 mile warranty. It's like a dream tire, per advertisement trouncing the best tire on the market, its older brother Pilot Sport.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here is my informal tire weight ranking, courtesy of Tire Rack's Tires for Porsche 997 Turbo 235/35-19 front, 305/30-19 rear (pls correct any mistake as needed).

The number in bold are the weights of one front plus one rear tire:
Michelin Cup: front/rear 20/27 = 47 lbs
Pirelli Corsa: 21/26 = 47
Continental Extreme Contact DW: 21/28 = 49
Hoosier R6 (not street tire, 315/30-19 rear): 22/27 = 49
Michelin PS2: 22/28 = 50
Continental SportContact 3: 22/28 = 50
Pirelli Rosso: 22/29 = 51
Michelin Pilot Super Sport: 25/30 = 55
Bridgestone RE050A: 24/31 = 55
Hantook Ventus V12: 24/32=56
Toyo R888: 25/31 = 56
Bridgestone RE11: 27/32 = 59

Interesting, no? A weight difference of 24 lbs, such as from Michelin/Pirelli cup to Bridgestone RE11, cannot and should not be ignored. Another interesting example: a Turbo with iron brake and RE11 will have what, close to 60 lbs. more in unsprung weight than one with PCCB and Michelin Cup?
I am surprised that in my reading of tire comparisons on various forums, I've not run across more discussions of this extremely important parameter of tire weight. Does no one CARE about precession?

__________________

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

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Aug 7, 2011 1:39:17 AM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: cannga

Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

The key to the performance of the Pilot Super Sport appears to come from Twaron, a synthetic aramid fiber. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramid

From what I could gather from ad materials and "web research," typically the belt of a tire tightens the tread more than the shoulders. By strengthening the tire with Twaron, pressure is more evenly distributed and the tire is kept in "shape." I would assume this why Michelin claims a nicer profile and contact patch with the Pilot Super Sport.

As always, any expert here please correct me as needed. I might just give this tire a try as my R compound experiment with Pirelli is coming to a noisy, very very noisy, end. Boy these R compound tires don't seem to age well, especially with the noise aspect.

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

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Oct 31, 2011 3:21:37 AM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: cannga

Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

Hope this helps those completely new to this. Anyone please add/correct me as needed. I will edit as necessary.
Suspension Mods Overview:
Suspension mod is easier to understand if you categorize the modifications. Then all of sudden, things will seem so simple ;-) and not so intimidating. I will arbitrarily create 4 categories:

1. Stiffer springs: this is the single most important mod in the Turbo and will transform the car. It is accomplished by using lowering springs (which I do not recommend but YMMV - ok if you prefer them) or using coilover (springs + shock absorber) such as those made by Bilstein or KW. Positives: Stiffer and lower are almost always better in a sports car: less weight transfer (body roll, dive and squat), more precise response. Negatives: Ride versus handling trade-off is forever present - the law of physics. As handling improves, ride will suffer. Don't use Moton or JRZ because they are too stiff for street driving.

2. Alignment: involves toe, caster, camber. For all practical purposes, all you need to worry about in the Turbo is to increase front negative camber. Stock is about -0.6, you want to increase this to minus 1.1 or so (the max possible). Positives: Negative camber increases cornering force/traction of the tire (allows you to corner faster), decreases understeer which is an inherent problem with AWD 997.1 Turbo (complicated, pls just trust me that this is the case ;-)), and improves turn-in response. Negatives: Excessive & uneven tire wear and straight-line traction/acceleration could be affected adversely if over-done.

3. Stiffer "other" components: This would fall into 2 categories:
A. Sway bar: used to fine tune the system, in particular the understeer/oversteer behavior. After market sway bars are not only stiffer, they have adjustable stiffness. In the AWD Turbo with inherent understeer trait, the recommended setting is soft front, stiff rear, to decrease understeer. Note that sway bar on stiff setting could have major effect on the comfort of your ride (very un-comfortable). Positives: Decrease body roll, adjust understeer/oversteer, stiffer front sway bar makes steering firmer and feel more precise. Negatives: Decreases ride comfort.
B. After market suspension links that use solid metallic bushing/joint, in place of stock rubber/neoprene bushing/joint. The links include rear upper links (dog bones), toe control link, thrust arm bushing, front camber plate, drop links, etc. Positives: Solid links increase precision and make cars feel more "planted"/precise. Negatives: Increase noise, vibration, harshness, some more than others. Also, these are wear-and-tear items and need to be checked periodically and replaced when the joints become loose (metallic joints/links don't last as long as rubber/neoprene joints/links).

4. Tires: Don't under-estimate this major component of suspension system, and never race another car that has superior tires! This means: R compound tires such as Michelin Cup or Pirelli Corsa. Positives: have inherent advantages: stickier rubber, stiffer wall. Negatives: Dangerous on wet roads (no traction, aqua-plane), takes time to warm up, noisy & stiff especially when old.

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

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Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

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Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

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