Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo? - Page1

May 19, 2008 3:45:06 AM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: Over the Hill

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

Hi Larry,

"By and large you are at the mercy of hearsay, 4th hand opinions, and general advertising puffery," you are a seasoned veteran and wiser words have not been spoken

. I could theorize to my heart's content, but proof will only come with long term experience.

"Advertising puffery," ha ha, I like that! My protection against this is to ask many people the same question, and, a trick I learned from my lawyer, the same question many times.

(Dear lawyer friends on board, last statement meant to be a compliment!)

Recent experience with a GT class Porsche (What a car, there are trade-offs but I am ABSOLUTELY green with envy.) convinces me further that I would be happier tightening this suspension a little bit. I will report back in a few months.

Quote:
Over the Hill said:
Can,

I agree a 10 minute test drive certainly isn't enough time to give a suspension much of a test. In fact I doubt you had much time if any with the PASM turned off as I rarely drive with it in the off position. By and large you are at the mercy of hearsay, 4th hand opinions, and general advertising puffery. You makes your choice, spends your money and hopes it works out to your satisfaction.

It might just come down to price and who gives you the best looking stickers for your car.

Larry

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May 19, 2008 3:52:10 AM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: cannga

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

For those following this thread and new to suspension mods, let me summarize what I've learned in case you are interested. There are 4 common mods that people have added to the Turbo, with number 4 probably the least frequent:

1. Front camber adjustment to reduce push/understeer. Stock is -.4 or so, a common target is about -1.3.

2. Lowering and stiffening the car. 2 ways to do this: With coilover such as Bilstein, or lowering springs such as Techart, H&R, GMG. Among the springs, pay attention to the spring rates, no one wants to tell me actual numbers but I believe H&R might be lower than stock, Techart is next, than GMG is the stiffest.

3. Stiffer Anti-Roll Bar (the drop links that connect the anti-roll bar to the suspension are sometimes also replaced).

4. Cup pieces. The basic idea is that stock parts use rubber/softer links for comfort, cup pieces use stiffer ones supposedly to reduce suspension geometry change in corners, and for better handling & steering feedback, etc. The 4 that I know are
...Rear toe control arm, aka toe link. I believe this is the most commonly replaced.
...Rear upper control arms, aka dog bones.
...Front thrust arm bushing
...Front A-arms monoball (last thing to mod, could be noisy)

How much you would like to do is of course personal choice. Every step will have trade-offs, you are basically moving away from daily driver towards GT3. If I go ahead with any or all of these steps, surely I will have reports. Good luck and mod on!

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May 19, 2008 1:09:19 PM

AK997TT: Junior; Loc: SoCal; Posts: 76, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 22, 2006; Reply to: cannga

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

Can, another possible option that I have not seen anyone do yet is #5. retrofitting a 997TT with a GT3RS or GT2 factory coilover suspension system complete with all related parts. I'm pretty sure the RS and GT2 has PASM and the system is throughly engineered and tested by the factory. Can it be retrofitted to the Turbo? I don't know???

To the best of my knowledge I was the first to install the PASM compatible PSS10's and I love them http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101378&highlight=pss10 however I would explore the factory RS or GT2 system for TT retrofit if I were to do it again.

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May 19, 2008 1:10:56 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: AK997TT

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

Quote:
AK997TT said:
Can, another possible option that I have not seen anyone do yet is #5. retrofitting a 997TT with a GT3RS or GT2 factory coilover suspension system complete with all related parts. I'm pretty sure the RS and GT2 has PASM and the system is throughly engineered and tested by the factory. Can it be retrofitted to the Turbo? I don't know???

To the best of my knowledge I was the first to install the PASM compatible PSS10's and I love them http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101378&highlight=pss10 however I would explore the factory RS or GT2 system for TT retrofit if I were to do it again.

From what I understand, the Damptronics are better than the GT2 shocks.

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May 19, 2008 1:20:39 PM

atomic80: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Bellevue, WA USA , United States; Posts: 2596, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2006; Reply to: Crash

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

Crash is correct, the Damptronics are indeed better.

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May 19, 2008 1:21:08 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

I believe the GT-R uses Bilstein Damptronics too, which is probably a big contributor to it's good handling.

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May 19, 2008 2:09:21 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

There doesn't seem to be a 'P97 Turbo' PASM option (that Cargraphic sells at least) for the PSS10's:

http://www.cargraphic.de/stepone/data/downloads/a5/07/00/SportfahrwerkeBILST.pdf

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May 19, 2008 3:40:32 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

Hello Crash,

By Damptronics, do you mean the the ability to control damping electronically by affecting the damper's internal valve? The GT2 *does* have PASM, controlled with a button inside the cabin.
For me, just like the Turbo, PASM Firm feels jittery, with choppy motion. GT2 in Soft is perfection incarnate though, both on freeways and streets.

Quote:
Crash said:
From what I understand, the Damptronics are better than the GT2 shocks.

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May 19, 2008 3:49:13 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: AK997TT

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

Hi Anthony,

Why would you like to use GT3 coilovers instead of Bilstein PSS10 if you have to do it again? Is the Bilstein not controlling pitch/roll enough?

I know about replacement with GT3 coilovers, someone on the 996TT forum told me he's actually doing this, but I didnt' want to scare people too much

. I will add that option and Moton/JRZ later on.

If you ever see a used/demo GT2 on the dealer's parking lot, ask/beg/bribe for a test drive. It might be a life changing experience. Not so much the power-- I've been in certain modded Turbo

that feels more powerful, but the steering feel and suspension behavior are **night and day** different from our Turbo and immediately noticeable with the first flick of the steering wheel. Trade-offs as a daily driver notwithstanding, GT2 has very sharp and direct steering feel, fantastic and for me near perfect cornering behavior with sharp turn-in. I don't like the GT3 because that engine needs more torque/power in the low rpm range, but wow the GT2 is perfection incarnate. I am so envious of Markus et al. on this board.

Just my opinions--anyone feels differently please don't get upset!

Quote:
AK997TT said:
Can, another possible option that I have not seen anyone do yet is #5. retrofitting a 997TT with a GT3RS or GT2 factory coilover suspension system complete with all related parts. I'm pretty sure the RS and GT2 has PASM and the system is throughly engineered and tested by the factory. Can it be retrofitted to the Turbo? I don't know???

To the best of my knowledge I was the first to install the PASM compatible PSS10's and I love them http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101378&highlight=pss10 however I would explore the factory RS or GT2 system for TT retrofit if I were to do it again.

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May 20, 2008 7:01:07 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: cannga

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showt...0665&page=2

Obviously suspension feel is a matter of personal preference (i.e. YMMV), and not 100% sure if it would be the right thing to do, but interesting that a couple of people have actually beat me to it with exact same mods I outlined below: spring or coilover, anti sway, and cup parts (look for posts by bobk and JG 997).

Quote:
cannga said:
For those following this thread and new to suspension mods, let me summarize what I've learned in case you are interested. There are 4 common mods that people have added to the Turbo, with number 4 probably the least frequent:

1. Front camber adjustment to reduce push/understeer. Stock is -.4 or so, a common target is about -1.3.

2. Lowering and stiffening the car. 2 ways to do this: With coilover such as Bilstein, or lowering springs such as Techart, H&R, GMG. Among the springs, pay attention to the spring rates, no one wants to tell me actual numbers but I believe H&R might be lower than stock, Techart is next, than GMG is the stiffest.

3. Stiffer Anti-Roll Bar (the drop links that connect the anti-roll bar to the suspension are sometimes also replaced).

4. Cup pieces. The basic idea is that stock parts use rubber/softer links for comfort, cup pieces use stiffer ones supposedly to reduce suspension geometry change in corners, and for better handling & steering feedback, etc. The 4 that I know are
...Rear toe control arm, aka toe link. I believe this is the most commonly replaced.
...Rear upper control arms, aka dog bones.
...Front thrust arm bushing
...Front A-arms monoball (last thing to mod, could be noisy)

How much you would like to do is of course personal choice. Every step will have trade-offs, you are basically moving away from daily driver towards GT3. If I go ahead with any or all of these steps, surely I will have reports. Good luck and mod on!

Next
Threads

May 20, 2008 8:25:21 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: cannga

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

Quote:
cannga said:
Hello Crash,

By Damptronics, do you mean the the ability to control damping electronically by affecting the damper's internal valve? The GT2 *does* have PASM, controlled with a button inside the cabin.
For me, just like the Turbo, PASM Firm feels jittery, with choppy motion. GT2 in Soft is perfection incarnate though, both on freeways and streets.

Quote:
Crash said:
From what I understand, the Damptronics are better than the GT2 shocks.

If I recall correctly, the PSS10 are regular, PASM-less coil-overs, while the Damptronics are the PASM version. With that in mind, while the GT2 also has a PASM suspension, the Damptronics are the better dampers, compared to those on the stock GT2.

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Jun 3, 2008 11:32:08 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: cannga

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

I've proceeded with step 3 of the 4 steps to Nirvana

: GMG sway bars were installed. Although I could have done this together with the coilover/spring replacement (Bilstein vs. GMG spring, with Bilstein being the front runner at this point.), I separated the installations because I would like to know what each of the steps does to my car. I chose to install the sway bar first simply I had not been sure which spring/coilover to install yet.

The GMG anti-sway bars have 3 settings: soft, middle, stiff. The soft setting of the GMG is apparently equal to the standard setting of the Porsche OEM sway bar.
My car was set at the middle level front and rear, i.e. slightly stiffer than stock. I was told by GMG that the best "for me" (non track) is actually full stiff rear, and soft front, so I will have the settings changed later on.

My humble opinions (YMMV):

First, the sway bars do not affect the ride to any significant degree. It does reduce the leaning in corners and on freeways. One example is that previously, if I gently roll the steering wheel back and forth slightly at 70-80 mph, the stock car would as expected change direction, but then side to side leaning would follow, like redundant motion. Problem is the leaning is much more than what I (YMMV !!!) think a car at this level/category should behave. This side to side leaning is now improved. In corners the improvement is there but more subtle than I had expected; the car still leans more than I would like or expect. I think Bilstein PSS10 is the mandatory next step.

The stock spring/damper is set up to be similar to the 997 C2 but somehow ends up feeling way too soft for the Turbo. Perhaps the stupendous power *dictates* a stiffer setting, subjectively and objectively.

Quote:
cannga said:
For those following this thread and new to suspension mods, let me summarize what I've learned in case you are interested. There are 4 common mods that people have added to the Turbo, with number 4 probably the least frequent:

1. Front camber adjustment to reduce push/understeer. Stock is -.4 or so, a common target is about -1.3.

2. Lowering and stiffening the car. 2 ways to do this: With coilover such as Bilstein, or lowering springs such as Techart, H&R, GMG. Among the springs, pay attention to the spring rates, no one wants to tell me actual numbers but I believe H&R might be lower than stock, Techart is next, than GMG is the stiffest.

3. Stiffer Anti-Roll Bar (the drop links that connect the anti-roll bar to the suspension are sometimes also replaced).

4. Cup pieces. The basic idea is that stock parts use rubber/softer links for comfort, cup pieces use stiffer ones supposedly to reduce suspension geometry change in corners, and for better handling & steering feedback, etc. The 4 that I know are
...Rear toe control arm, aka toe link. I believe this is the most commonly replaced.
...Rear upper control arms, aka dog bones.
...Front thrust arm bushing
...Front A-arms monoball (last thing to mod, could be noisy)

How much you would like to do is of course personal choice. Every step will have trade-offs, you are basically moving away from daily driver towards GT3. If I go ahead with any or all of these steps, surely I will have reports. Good luck and mod on!

Next
Threads

Jun 3, 2008 11:51:55 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: cannga

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

Some info (ad material

) from GMG:

GMG WC 997TT Sway Bar Kit
GMG has worked with Eibach to develop the GMG WC sport sway bar kit for 997TT owners. The sway bars are 3 way adjustable front and 3 way adjustable. Rear hollow sport sway bars are over 30% stiffer than the factory bar's and are supplied with urethane bushings and offer the most tensional rigidity on the market today. Will work with stock suspension or coil over kits. Designed specifically for the 997TT these bars are a direct bolt on replacement with no need for additional sway bar end links. There are also no problems with front axle clearance like with other sway bars on the market.
Sold as front and rear set only.
Price: $695.00 per pair

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Jun 3, 2008 11:52:23 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: cannga

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

Last picture

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Jun 4, 2008 12:31:25 PM

GT: Senior; Loc: london , United Kingdom; Posts: 618, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 14, 2006; Reply to: atomic80

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

Quote:
atomic80 said:
What's interesting is that Techart has managed to figure out how to make theirs so that it resists yellowing. I haven't seen any up close yet but so far all the ones I've heard about has managed to stay clear of that defect.

..sighs, mine did not.. After first track day they turned bicoloured!
Btw I am happy to hear that there are others who also like those techart tips. I got such thrushing by MMD a year ago when I bought them and posted them here..

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Jun 7, 2008 4:11:52 AM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: GT

Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

Step 2 to Nirvana

continues here, Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics Coilovers:
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=449462&an=0&page=0#449462

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