Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: How is 997 TT on track ? - Page1

May 30, 2008 6:40:41 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005

How is 997 TT on track ?

Can those that use their TT on the track please let me know what they think about it ?

How is the fun feeling compared to a C2S ? ( not talking about the 'fantastic boost' from the TT)

I hesitate between a C2S with PCCB or a TT.
I know the power of the TT will be so pleasurable but unsure about the extra weight and the ''not so good'' track handling.

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May 30, 2008 12:59:36 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Gnil

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

I have a professionally produced Japanese video ( a bunch of cool guys!) of the TT on a track complete with driver commentary (and obligatory split screen showing footwork

). They liked the C2S better. I concluded I should stay away from the track with my TT.

No problem for me to stay away from the track! The TT is a _stunning_ road car. Much preferred over my former C2S.

I do _NOT_ miss the lighter steering. In fact after a day or two I forgot all about it. I drive on same roads and have my favorite places to get frisky with the steering: ZERO disappointment. If I were a track rat perhaps I would notice the steering and 2wd vs. AWD difference more and it would bother me even though the massive torque/hp is a lot of fun but different driving technique and skill.

Repeating this important realization: IM_H_O, the handling differences while driving frisky but _safely_ on public roads are ZERO.

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May 30, 2008 3:14:17 PM

TT Surgeon: Senior; Loc: Long Island, NY , United States; Posts: 783, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

See my track wheel post, the TT can be a killer at the track.

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May 30, 2008 3:51:44 PM

BMCG: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 230, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 28, 2003; Reply to: TT Surgeon

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Inferior to a GT3.

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May 30, 2008 6:19:33 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: BMCG

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

see my sigline video

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May 30, 2008 7:44:39 PM

xandi911: Senior; Loc: brasil; Posts: 688, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 14, 2006; Reply to: eclou

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

i had experience with the TT at the track! what i can tell you is... is a great car at the track, very easy to control.

it shows for you clearly what it can do and what not, IMO without surprise.

i really liked! i just felt it a little heavy..

and when the turbos starts to push... priceless!

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May 31, 2008 12:34:39 AM

TT Surgeon: Senior; Loc: Long Island, NY , United States; Posts: 783, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: BMCG

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
BMCG said:
Inferior to a GT3.

Tell it to the one I had for lunch on Wednesday at the Glen.

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May 31, 2008 7:13:15 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: eclou

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
eclou said:
see my sigline video

It looks more like you are just a much better driver then all the other ones on that track

Have you changed the suspensions ? Are you on Cup tyres ?
I have nor worries about the big fast turns, but what about he smaller turns ? Do you feel handicaped by the weight ?

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May 31, 2008 7:17:21 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: TT Surgeon

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
TT Surgeon said:
See my track wheel post, the TT can be a killer at the track.

I see you are doing what it takes to improve the beast , but what about the feeling ? Have you driven a GT3 in comparison or a C2s?
I have tried the GT3 on the track but never the turbo..

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May 31, 2008 12:41:03 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: Gnil

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Gnil,

I run GT3 suspension settings (street), Techart springs, and R compound tires (245 width fronts). The car at that time was also at a stage 2 tune (ecu + exhaust). I have no trouble running down Gt3's and Gt2's at that particular high speed track. I drive in the advanced solo group with my Porsche club, where most of the drivers have shown some aptitude. I am not any better a driver but rather have a 100-400hp advantage over the other cars!

The TT was initially somewhat cumbersome in slow, sharp turns - initial understeer followed by oversteer with throttle. That is largely eliminated once you do 3 things to increase front tire grip - increase front camber alignment, adding R-compound tires, and running a wider front tire.

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May 31, 2008 1:09:11 PM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: eclou

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

For advanced drivers, the car will feel a bit heavy and less intuitive/driver involvement than a lighter, possibly RWD car such as the GT3.

I have to be honest, while the Turbo is one of the most amazing all around cars ever produced, on the track it can be cumbersome (to say the least).

While 4WD can pull you out of corners confidently, and cover up small mistakes, it also really takes some of the fun out of the track.

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May 31, 2008 1:37:31 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Moogle

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
Moogle said:

I have to be honest, while the Turbo is one of the most amazing all around cars ever produced, on the track it can be cumbersome (to say the least).

That's what my Japanese friends were saying in their video. It's probably only a bad thing if you just stepped out of a C2S and into the TT.

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May 31, 2008 5:31:52 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

here is another vid of the EVOMS 700 car devouring cars at a tight track

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GPoYoxUN9ww

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May 31, 2008 6:17:33 PM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: eclou

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
eclou said:
here is another vid of the EVOMS 700 car devouring cars at a tight track

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GPoYoxUN9ww

Regarding that - I liken this discussion to the ol' manual vs automatic/DSG/etc.

While it's indisputable that throwing technology at the problem makes things faster and better than any human could do it (in the case of transmissions such as DSG versus manual) - it removes some of the human involvement and "reward" that one discerns from doing it oneself.

Which is the same as driving a super-tech-4wd-traction controlled-guided-rocket-car versus driving a raw car such as a GT3-RS.

These days cars can basically drive themselves and do ALL the hard stuff for you - but what fun is that - why not just stay home and play a videogame.

That's why there will always be an argument for manual transmissions - no traction control - no power steering/etc. To some people, it doesn't matter HOW fast OR better fancy electronics can do it FOR you - they want to do it themselves - call us automotive-tech phillistines if you must - it's a sickness

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May 31, 2008 7:49:31 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: Moogle

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Tom one has to remember though the GT3/RS is an easier car to drive hard on the track than the TT. The throttle is far more linear with no on/off boost characteristics and the 3's are more linear in regards to turn-in and balance. The TT needs some finessing to work thru corners and is less forgiving & easier to pitch the rear end out.

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Jun 1, 2008 2:21:01 AM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: eclou

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

and oftentimes AWD is not the safety blanket....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gQLM-K9TwWM

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Jun 1, 2008 2:49:19 AM

TT Gasman: Co-Pilot; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 241, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 18, 2002; Reply to: eclou

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
eclou said:
and oftentimes AWD is not the safety blanket....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gQLM-K9TwWM

Oh crap!

You have to learn to "keep the finger in the flame" on these cars, in other words don't lift!.

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Jun 1, 2008 9:35:44 PM

TT Surgeon: Senior; Loc: Long Island, NY , United States; Posts: 783, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: TT Gasman

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Wow! was that an R8, the guy must have been besides himself,(nevermind, just heard the audio, he was)!

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Jun 1, 2008 11:20:21 PM

GT: Senior; Loc: london , United Kingdom; Posts: 618, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 14, 2006; Reply to: TT Surgeon

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
TT Surgeon said:
Wow! was that an R8, the guy must have been besides himself,(nevermind, just heard the audio, he was)!

Guys, underestimate the 997tt on the track at your peril! Two trackdays at paul ricard and they are still talking about my car there. Ok the first time I had a clear power advantage with 650hp (porsche track day, GT3, GT3RSs, CGT etc) but still was clearing easily everything even though I only had worn street tires vs cups & corsas for most of the others.
However the second time I had no power advantage (courtesy of a blown actuator valve) but with corsas and was still passing everything including scuderias (suprisingly not too good that one on the track), superleggeras, GT3rs etc. And this time I could not pass almost nobody on the straights.. Car had stock shocks/techart spring/ sways first time and damptronics/sways second time.
Still not perfect balance (damptonics too soft for track imo) but this car has such amazing traction given the power that demolishes everything.
One thing for those accusing the turbo electronics etc for taking all the driver involvement out of the car; the 997 chassis can handle the 400-500nm of torque of the GT3 models without a sweat, making them a breeze to drive on a track. Try with 900nm and the driver really needs to be able to throw the car around, controlling the power delivery making driving at the limit actually in certain ways more involving. Sure the turbo understeers (still trying to find ways to reduce that) but with the tips/mods presented above by eclou and others you can get within 95% of the driving precision of a GT3. However the GT3 can never get anywhere near the power or lap times of a well setup turbo.
If it wasn't for the traction limitations of rwd on the street (especially if one wants 600+ hp), GT2 would be the perfect car in my opinion..

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Jun 2, 2008 6:09:45 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: GT

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

There are some very interesting comments. Thanks.
It definitively puts the TT back on my list. I would idealy need to try it on the track, but not sure I will manage. At the end of the month I am at the Paul Ricard for a dwo days course about driving without electronic assistance from Porsche . Maybe I'll have a chance to test the TT.
I will now have to deceide if I go for a GT3 dedicated to the track, or if I go for a TT , with the '3 mods' that would be my daily driver too ?

BTW: the other day I was on a track where there was 4 Scuderia.... only very good drivers could make fast laps. The others were all overtaken by the GT3 .
They was a 'real' Ferrart team and the mecanics said that the Scuderia is has not a set up for the track !!!!! Camber need to be changed, brake pads too, and the front suspension needs to be lowered.

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Jun 2, 2008 7:45:35 AM

GT: Senior; Loc: london , United Kingdom; Posts: 618, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 14, 2006; Reply to: Gnil

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
Gnil said:
There are some very interesting comments. Thanks.
It definitively puts the TT back on my list. I would idealy need to try it on the track, but not sure I will manage. At the end of the month I am at the Paul Ricard for a dwo days course about driving without electronic assistance from Porsche . Maybe I'll have a chance to test the TT.
I will now have to deceide if I go for a GT3 dedicated to the track, or if I go for a TT , with the '3 mods' that would be my daily driver too ?

BTW: the other day I was on a track where there was 4 Scuderia.... only very good drivers could make fast laps. The others were all overtaken by the GT3 .
They was a 'real' Ferrart team and the mecanics said that the Scuderia is has not a set up for the track !!!!! Camber need to be changed, brake pads too, and the front suspension needs to be lowered.

The comment re scuderia does not surprise me and is ridiculous imo. The car is stripped to the bone for track use!! One of the 2 scuds had some or all those changes (as per driver's comments) and still I was passing him with only effectively 500-550hp max.
On your other point, test driving a stock tt would give only half of the information since porsche deliberately created compromises to the handling of this car (wider audience appeal, leave space for GT3, GT2 models). The GT3 will give you slightly better feel for the track. The downside will be that the lap times will be a lot slower than a modded turbo and on the road it is not a lot of fun.
The turbo will have a slightly heavier turn-in in sharp/slow corners but will be superior overall on medium and high speed corners (throttle steer is a lot of fun!) and of course lap times. On the street the fun you have with a 600+hp turbo does not even begin to compare with a GT3. So unless you can put on n+ track days a year on a track that is full of 2nd/3gr gear corners (unlike paul ricard) then I would not hesitate and get a turbo with pccb/lsd/ss manual and tune it.
Since you are in switzerland you could maybe ask sportec (they are near zurich) for a test drive of a stage 2 or 3 car and decide.

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Jun 2, 2008 8:33:07 AM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: GT

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
GT said:
Quote:
Gnil said:
There are some very interesting comments. Thanks.
It definitively puts the TT back on my list. I would idealy need to try it on the track, but not sure I will manage. At the end of the month I am at the Paul Ricard for a dwo days course about driving without electronic assistance from Porsche . Maybe I'll have a chance to test the TT.
I will now have to deceide if I go for a GT3 dedicated to the track, or if I go for a TT , with the '3 mods' that would be my daily driver too ?

BTW: the other day I was on a track where there was 4 Scuderia.... only very good drivers could make fast laps. The others were all overtaken by the GT3 .
They was a 'real' Ferrart team and the mecanics said that the Scuderia is has not a set up for the track !!!!! Camber need to be changed, brake pads too, and the front suspension needs to be lowered.

The comment re scuderia does not surprise me and is ridiculous imo. The car is stripped to the bone for track use!! One of the 2 scuds had some or all those changes (as per driver's comments) and still I was passing him with only effectively 500-550hp max.
On your other point, test driving a stock tt would give only half of the information since porsche deliberately created compromises to the handling of this car (wider audience appeal, leave space for GT3, GT2 models). The GT3 will give you slightly better feel for the track. The downside will be that the lap times will be a lot slower than a modded turbo and on the road it is not a lot of fun.
The turbo will have a slightly heavier turn-in in sharp/slow corners but will be superior overall on medium and high speed corners (throttle steer is a lot of fun!) and of course lap times. On the street the fun you have with a 600+hp turbo does not even begin to compare with a GT3. So unless you can put on n+ track days a year on a track that is full of 2nd/3gr gear corners (unlike paul ricard) then I would not hesitate and get a turbo with pccb/lsd/ss manual and tune it.
Since you are in switzerland you could maybe ask sportec (they are near zurich) for a test drive of a stage 2 or 3 car and decide.

My opinion: you are the better driver (compared to the Scuderia you met on the track).

Even with 550hp the 997TT will be slower on probably most tracks (assuming the same driver).

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Jun 2, 2008 4:06:11 PM

Nugget: Co-Pilot; Loc: Houston Texas USA , United States; Posts: 237, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 29, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
MMD said:I concluded I should stay away from the track with my TT.

Bad choice! Bad choice!

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Jun 2, 2008 10:06:27 PM

xandi911: Senior; Loc: brasil; Posts: 688, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 14, 2006; Reply to: Nugget

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
Nugget said:
Quote:
MMD said:I concluded I should stay away from the track with my TT.

Bad choice! Bad choice!

+1 bad choice

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Jun 3, 2008 4:07:52 AM

TT Surgeon: Senior; Loc: Long Island, NY , United States; Posts: 783, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: xandi911

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
xandi911 said:
Quote:
Nugget said:
Quote:
MMD said:I concluded I should stay away from the track with my TT.

Like dirty harry said, a man's gots to know his limitations. jk, do yourself a favor and take the tt to the track, it can more than handle it!

Bad choice! Bad choice!

+1 bad choice

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Jun 3, 2008 7:00:12 AM

turbosteff: Co-Pilot; Loc: Hessen,Germany , Germany; Posts: 153, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 2, 2006; Reply to: xandi911

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
xandi911 said:
Quote:
Nugget said:
Quote:
MMD said:I concluded I should stay away from the track with my TT.

Bad choice! Bad choice!

+1 bad choice

+2

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Jun 3, 2008 7:28:12 AM

polo: Senior; Loc: France; Posts: 539, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 26, 2006; Reply to: turbosteff

Re: How is 997 TT on track ?

Quote:
turbosteff said:
Quote:
xandi911 said:
Quote:
Nugget said:
Quote:
MMD said:I concluded I should stay away from the track with my TT.

Bad choice! Bad choice!

+1 bad choice

+2

+3

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