Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Porsche boss in danger ? - Page1

Feb 20, 2008 9:38:49 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
Turbo Al said:... Maintain the 911's position in Porsche as the flagship model in the following manner: Move up from a flat-6 to a flat-8, keep it behind the rear axle...

A 911 is a flat-6 not a flat-8. Besides, I do not see PAG doing that due to the schizophrenic enviro rules (on both sides of the pond).

I think that a direct-injection 3.8l flat-6 can produce Norh of 400HP easily and reliably. Some weight savings would be welcome, in the form of composite panels and also by offering a basic trim level with fewer accessories. And I mean basic trim level not performance. If there's an entry 11 and an S both should be offered with a basic trim level. That, though, won't play well with many of this forum's members who agonize about leather/alu/cf bits, and electronic gizmos galore.

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Feb 20, 2008 9:53:40 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: ADias

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
Turbo Al said:... Maintain the 911's position in Porsche as the flagship model in the following manner: Move up from a flat-6 to a flat-8, keep it behind the rear axle...

A 911 is a flat-6 not a flat-8. Besides, I do not see PAG doing that due to the schizophrenic enviro rules (on both sides of the pond).

I think that a direct-injection 3.8l flat-6 can produce Norh of 400HP easily and reliably. Some weight savings would be welcome, in the form of composite panels and also by offering a basic trim level with fewer accessories. And I mean basic trim level not performance. If there's an entry 11 and an S both should be offered with a basic trim level. That, though, won't play well with many of this forum's members who agonize about leather/alu/cf bits, and electronic gizmos galore.

Well, if you want to be a stickler and an absolutist and claim that a 911 can have only 6 engine cylinders, then to be a true 911 purist you must demand that the new car revert to its original setup from 1964: air-cooled and not water-cooled, 1991 cubes or 2.0L instead of 3.8L, 130PS/96kw instead of 400+HP (which would hardly be world-dominating no matter how much weight it stripped off), and a mere 5-speed manual tranny, not the 6-speed we've become accustomed to-and not to mention that ghastly Tiptronic.

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Feb 20, 2008 9:55:59 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Al, I have a different idea in mind. I think Porsche needs a radical and innovative new engine. A engine that will bring some magic and produce a mega wow factor.

Why not a compact Turbine? They make a lot of power, run on any liquid that burns and can burn very clean. They have higher thermal efficiency and cleaner hp production than a reciprocating engine. MPG might be less but they sound cool.

There were a couple of turbine race cars in the 60's until they were banned. With todays technology new ones could be very small, efficient and produce a lot of power.

I dont know what they would call a Turbine powered Porsche coupe but fast as hell.

I can't say for sure that a Turbine is the best solution but they need something new, exciting and very soon.

If it can make 1,500+HP and 1,000+lb-ft. torque and eat Bugatti Veyron's for breakfast, that could pique some interest.

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Feb 20, 2008 10:01:36 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

What should have happened is that VW should have bought Porsche (I know, they didn't have the money at the time), instead of Porsche buying a piece of VW. Then Porsche could have been made a subsidiary, like Ferrari is to Fiat and concentrate on great sports cars and racing and the Cayenne and Panamera could be high-end VW models

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Feb 20, 2008 11:08:46 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Why not a compact Turbine? They make a lot of power, run on any liquid that burns and can burn very clean. They have higher thermal efficiency and cleaner hp production than a reciprocating engine.

Interesting idea, but they have horrendous throttle response. Would make a 930 Turbo's lag seem non-existant.

I think electric motors have more promise (intantaneous throttle response with 100% torque at 0 rpm. Need to work on the battery/power side of things though...

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Feb 20, 2008 11:16:49 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Why not a compact Turbine? They make a lot of power, run on any liquid that burns and can burn very clean. They have higher thermal efficiency and cleaner hp production than a reciprocating engine.

Interesting idea, but they have horrendous throttle response. Would make a 930 Turbo's lag seem non-existant.

I think electric motors have more promise (intantaneous throttle response with 100% torque at 0 rpm. Need to work on the battery/power side of things though...

And the sound. Unless one puts his car-sick GF into the passenger seat, there won't be much screaming coming out of the car

.

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Feb 20, 2008 11:44:48 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Why not a compact Turbine? They make a lot of power, run on any liquid that burns and can burn very clean. They have higher thermal efficiency and cleaner hp production than a reciprocating engine.

Interesting idea, but they have horrendous throttle response. Would make a 930 Turbo's lag seem non-existant.

I think electric motors have more promise (intantaneous throttle response with 100% torque at 0 rpm. Need to work on the battery/power side of things though...

On smaller turbine boats I think they use a flywheel system that reduces turbine RPMs and also stores some inertia for initial throttle response.

Electric cars? I'll take anything that doesnt sound like a electric fork lift at Home Depot!

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Feb 20, 2008 11:51:55 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Why not a compact Turbine? They make a lot of power, run on any liquid that burns and can burn very clean. They have higher thermal efficiency and cleaner hp production than a reciprocating engine.

Interesting idea, but they have horrendous throttle response. Would make a 930 Turbo's lag seem non-existant.

I think electric motors have more promise (intantaneous throttle response with 100% torque at 0 rpm. Need to work on the battery/power side of things though...

I much rather see a serial hybrid with a torquey electrical motor than a flat8. A flat8 with be a dinosaur on an 11. Now a flat6 or even a flat4 charging a battery set which drives a torquey electrical motor I do see. I don't like the current prius-type parallel hybrids; much prefer GM's eVolt architecture - actually an evolution of Dr. Ing. Ferdinand Porsche design of 100 years ago.

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Feb 21, 2008 1:50:24 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: ADias

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

I guess I am the only anti-Piech in here

Personally, I hope Ferdinand Piech just go find a hole somewhere and hide for the rest of his life and we don't hear a beep from him ever again. He is bad for ANY car company.

He is NOT a car guy by any means, he is just another ego-maniac who just do things to boost his own personal ego without regards to the good of the company, and I believe the sex-scandal at VW was directly related to him, he treat his staff to wild sex parties to 'reward' their loyalty to his madness.

VW was once a promising company, buying up Bugatti, Bentley, Lambo, Audi etc, he COULD have structure the VW group into a mega group that covers the whole market top to bottom with no overlap. But because of his stupid ego, he THINKS his own company, VW, should not be at the bottom of that scale, despite what the company's name says, he keeps trying to push VW the brand up market all the while cannibalizing sales of other brands in the company because he has no idea he would hurt other brands in the group. Or he doesn't care.

While he is doing that, sensing a company in trouble, everyone else move in for the kill and now VW is left with a tattered balance sheet. VW is STILL recovering from Piech's madness right now and IF he does manage to dismiss WW, I am sure he will find a way to wreck Porsche too. I can already see him make $15000 Porsche to compete with SEAT at the low end and $500,000 Porsche to compete with the Bugatti on the other side. And don't forget he WILL make sure the Panamera competes directly with the Audi A8/ VW Phaeton and reposition 911s into doing battle with the Audi R8 and Lambo G more directly than even now. Or he might put a VW instead of a Porsche badge on the 911, who knows what other devilish scheme he still has in his twisted brain.

O, and Fiat-Ferrari will be laughing all the way to the bank with defected customers from Porsche's loyalist customers.

Deep down, I hope WW can survive Piech's assault, if you guys thinks WW is bad for Porsche, what Piech has coming is even worst. Heck he might sell it to the Chinese if he is crazy enough.

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Feb 21, 2008 1:54:53 AM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
I guess I am the only anti-Piech in here

Personally, I hope Ferdinand Piech just go find a hole somewhere and hide for the rest of his life and we don't hear a beep from him ever again. He is bad for ANY car company.

He is NOT a car guy by any means, he is just another ego-maniac who just do things to boost his own personal ego without regards to the good of the company, and I believe the sex-scandal at VW was directly related to him, he treat his staff to wild sex parties to 'reward' their loyalty to his madness.

VW was once a promising company, buying up Bugatti, Bentley, Lambo, Audi etc, he COULD have structure the VW group into a mega group that covers the whole market top to bottom with no overlap. But because of his stupid ego, he THINKS his own company, VW, should not be at the bottom of that scale, despite what the company's name says, he keeps trying to push VW the brand up market all the while cannibalizing sales of other brands in the company because he has no idea he would hurt other brands in the group. Or he doesn't care.

While he is doing that, sensing a company in trouble, everyone else move in for the kill and now VW is left with a tattered balance sheet. VW is STILL recovering from Piech's madness right now and IF he does manage to dismiss WW, I am sure he will find a way to wreck Porsche too. I can already see him make $15000 Porsche to compete with SEAT at the low end and $500,000 Porsche to compete with the Bugatti on the other side. And don't forget he WILL make sure the Panamera competes directly with the Audi A8/ VW Phaeton and reposition 911s into doing battle with the Audi R8 and Lambo G more directly than even now. Or he might put a VW instead of a Porsche badge on the 911, who knows what other devilish scheme he still has in his twisted brain.

O, and Fiat-Ferrari will be laughing all the way to the bank with defected customers from Porsche's loyalist customers.

Deep down, I hope WW can survive Piech's assault, if you guys thinks WW is bad for Porsche, what Piech has coming is even worst. Heck he might sell it to the Chinese if he is crazy enough.

You're right, you ARE the only one.

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Feb 21, 2008 3:48:01 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
Whoopsy said:...I guess I am the only anti-Piech in here ...

In my 1st post above I said... "Piech has made many mistakes, but he loves sports cars. Wendelin Wiedeking only loves money. "

I'm not sure either if Piech will be good for PAG, but I'm sure WW is not. WW's mission has passed.

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Feb 21, 2008 5:09:07 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

"O, and Fiat-Ferrari will be laughing all the way to the bank with defected customers from Porsche's loyalist customers"

Do you really believe that? It is a totally different client base. Porsche does not lose customers to Ferrari.

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Feb 21, 2008 6:58:39 AM

denn: Senior; Loc: Finland , Finland; Posts: 701, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2004; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
Turbo Al said:
...remove some of the weight-gaining insulation and trinkets and thrill-robbing engineering and electronic c--- such as automated trannies and stability management ...

BTW, I don't think you're even allowed to sell cars without stability management a couple of years from now

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Feb 21, 2008 10:08:08 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
nberry said:
"O, and Fiat-Ferrari will be laughing all the way to the bank with defected customers from Porsche's loyalist customers"

Do you really believe that? It is a totally different client base. Porsche does not lose customers to Ferrari.

Why wouldn't it?

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Feb 21, 2008 11:54:55 AM

BC: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Cape Town , South Africa; Posts: 2586, Gallery; Registered on: May 19, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Good question Crash...

Anyways, WW must go... I'm a huge Porsche fan and really think they offer the best sportscars today but I straight out refuse to support them now...

My next sportscar will no doubt be Italian

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Feb 21, 2008 12:19:38 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: BC

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
BC911 said:
Good question Crash...

Anyways, WW must go... I'm a huge Porsche fan and really think they offer the best sportscars today but I straight out refuse to support them now...

My next sportscar will no doubt be Italian

The Gallardo LP550 or the 430 successor could be what you are looking for

.

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Feb 21, 2008 12:58:58 PM

BC: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Cape Town , South Africa; Posts: 2586, Gallery; Registered on: May 19, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
BC911 said:
Good question Crash...

Anyways, WW must go... I'm a huge Porsche fan and really think they offer the best sportscars today but I straight out refuse to support them now...

My next sportscar will no doubt be Italian

The Gallardo LP550 or the 430 successor could be what you are looking for .

Nah, wont be getting NEW car for about 1 - 1 1/2 years still and probably wont be in South Africa by then but the waiting list will still be too long, not to mention insurance/maintanance on one of those

, esp considering I'm 'higher risk' cause of my age...

I'm looking for a car with this badge

Before then I'd love a GT3 but like I said, the company's p!ssing me off...Greedy !d!ots

Going to test a Gransport soon... Cool car but resale will be a killer cause I'll only have the car about a year... Thinking bout it

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Feb 21, 2008 1:04:17 PM

BC: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Cape Town , South Africa; Posts: 2586, Gallery; Registered on: May 19, 2005; Reply to: BC

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Come on!
This badge

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Feb 21, 2008 4:04:10 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: BC

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

I think the fact that WW signed off on the Cayenne and the Panamera means that he has my respect as a businessman but not as a car lover. I don't think he cares what his cars look like just as long as they sell.

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Feb 21, 2008 5:08:07 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
I think the fact that WW signed off on the Cayenne and the Panamera means that he has my respect as a businessman but not as a car lover. I don't think he cares what his cars look like just as long as they sell.

He likes cars that look like him.

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Feb 21, 2008 5:22:28 PM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
He likes cars that look like him.

A mid life-cycle facelift is overdue for Wiedeking!

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Feb 21, 2008 6:26:37 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
nberry said:
"O, and Fiat-Ferrari will be laughing all the way to the bank with defected customers from Porsche's loyalist customers"

Do you really believe that? It is a totally different client base. Porsche does not lose customers to Ferrari.

Sure they do. Most Porsche drivers aspire to own a Ferrari someday. And some of them will.

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Feb 21, 2008 6:35:45 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
I guess I am the only anti-Piech in here

Or, the only pro WW here.

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Feb 21, 2008 6:54:12 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
nberry said:
"O, and Fiat-Ferrari will be laughing all the way to the bank with defected customers from Porsche's loyalist customers"

Do you really believe that? It is a totally different client base. Porsche does not lose customers to Ferrari.

Why wouldn't it?

Ferrari in the US is difficult if not impossible to get unless you have been a long time client. For a Porsche owner to say I am fed up with Porsche so I will buy a Ferrari is not realistic. Additionally, a Ferrari is almost 2 1/2 times more expensive than a Porsche.

If a Porsche owner really wanted a Ferrari, he would have done so long ago and not be concerned with Porsche policies.

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Feb 22, 2008 12:13:37 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
nberry said:
"O, and Fiat-Ferrari will be laughing all the way to the bank with defected customers from Porsche's loyalist customers"

Do you really believe that? It is a totally different client base. Porsche does not lose customers to Ferrari.

Why wouldn't it?

Ferrari in the US is difficult if not impossible to get unless you have been a long time client. For a Porsche owner to say I am fed up with Porsche so I will buy a Ferrari is not realistic. Additionally, a Ferrari is almost 2 1/2 times more expensive than a Porsche.

If a Porsche owner really wanted a Ferrari, he would have done so long ago and not be concerned with Porsche policies.

It's same deal here in Canada but nothing money cannot fix. Sometimes a stack of benjamins is all that's needed to bypass a 'list'. If one stack doesn't works, make that 2.

As I will admit I am not a brand loyalist, when Porsche's cars go downhill after Piech took control, I intend to move on to greener pastures, Ferrari may not be the better car but at least it's not run by a lunatic.

Mr. Porsche has great genes in the family, but too bad none of those made it to F. Piech.

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Feb 22, 2008 1:00:45 AM

The Groom: Expert; Loc: EU; Posts: 1779, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 23, 2005; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
Mr. Porsche has great genes in the family, but too bad none of those made it to F. Piech.

The 917 would like to have a word with you. Not to mention the Audi Quattro.

You may like or dislike Mr Piëch's character, but you cannot deny he is as good an engineer as his grandfather.

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Feb 22, 2008 10:49:59 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
nberry said:
"O, and Fiat-Ferrari will be laughing all the way to the bank with defected customers from Porsche's loyalist customers"

Do you really believe that? It is a totally different client base. Porsche does not lose customers to Ferrari.

Why wouldn't it?

Ferrari in the US is difficult if not impossible to get unless you have been a long time client. For a Porsche owner to say I am fed up with Porsche so I will buy a Ferrari is not realistic. Additionally, a Ferrari is almost 2 1/2 times more expensive than a Porsche.

If a Porsche owner really wanted a Ferrari, he would have done so long ago and not be concerned with Porsche policies.

I know about the state of affairs in the US, but it's very possible in Europe. You can walk into the F/Maser dealership here and have a new 430 delivered to you in 5-6 months, so I don't see availability as a huge problem outside of the US.

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Feb 22, 2008 1:10:11 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3997, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: The Groom

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
The Groom said:
Quote:
Whoopsy said:
Mr. Porsche has great genes in the family, but too bad none of those made it to F. Piech.

The 917 would like to have a word with you. Not to mention the Audi Quattro.

You may like or dislike Mr Piëch's character, but you cannot deny he is as good an engineer as his grandfather.

I agree!

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Feb 22, 2008 10:02:46 PM

trevorc: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 25, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 18, 2003; Reply to: reginos

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
reginos said:
As a Porsche owner and enthusiast for many years I credit Wiedeking for many important decisions. However IMO he has been handling the whole VW takeover scenario in an arrogant and clumpsy manner.His bitter confrontation and war of words with the VW workers' council is badly timed and premature. His harsh words scared off politicians who are siting with the many (work force) and trying to re-enact a milder version of the old VW law to protect them against unpopular strategies that WW indicated that will come. This was a big tactical mistake and Piech should pull his ear at least. This management style is too American and rightly or wrongly, cannot be applied in Europe 100% especially in Germany which has a tradition of equalitarianism and worker participation
Coming to cars, in the past Porsche was more engineering driven, true, but financially shaky. The present day mixture is ideal. The Carrera range is much more affordable in real prices than 20 years ago. The entry level cars are much purer than the 924s and 944s. If some people don't like the Panameras and the Cayennes they are not forced to buy them; they can enjoy their GT3s and their GT2s instead.

Agree !!!! Thanks for writing it

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Feb 23, 2008 5:19:35 AM

dan996: Expert; Loc: Delray Beach, Florida, , United States; Posts: 1563, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 24, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Quote:
W8MM said:
Quote:
The Groom said:
Quote:
Whoopsy said:
Mr. Porsche has great genes in the family, but too bad none of those made it to F. Piech.

The 917 would like to have a word with you. Not to mention the Audi Quattro.

You may like or dislike Mr Piëch's character, but you cannot deny he is as good an engineer as his grandfather.

I agree!

I will second that! Have not been here for awhile, but I have been saying for years that WW is not good for Porsche long term health. He did what Porsche needed but is taking them down the wrong path. I sold my 997 and now am driving a S4 and enjoying it, would have never considered it before but I like what Piech did to Audi. Piech has a greater vision than WW, short term vision is watching WW go out the door.

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Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

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Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

Re: Porsche boss in danger ?

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