BTW, thought I should take a moment to give credit & thanks to whoever that guy is  who did the very good initial review of this system and started my interest:
http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/287132/FinallyCargraphic_is_releasing_997_Turbo_Sport_Exhaust/index.html

For those interested the versions Alex & I are talking about are listed below. US naming system is slightly different from Europe's. The US Loud version I would assume is that "Super Sound Export Version"; it's for US market only and not allowed in Europe. The next loudest version is "TUV-Sound-Version," and finally I would assume "TUV-Version" is the most quiet.
I believe all 3 are available in the US, but to be sure you should check with the US importer, Road Sport Supply. They key to remember is this, once windows are up, even the Loud Version (what a silly name) is not that loud at all. I've been told that in general the trend is that, for US customers, some of those who ask for the more quiet version end up wanting to move to the louder one; the other way around is nearly nonexistent.

CARP97TET
TÜV-Version
Price: 3.250,00 EUR /3

CARP97TETR 
TÜV-Sound-Version
Price: 3.250,00 EUR /3

CARP97TETS
Super Sound Export-Version
Price: 3.250,00 EUR /3
--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review and Pictures ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

 

For those interested the versions Alex & I are talking about are listed below.

hey!! you forgot someone!!

Sorry, minor correction: For those interested the versions Alex & I & 

Darius     

are talking about are listed below. US naming system is slightly different from Europe's. The US Loud version I would assume is that "Super Sound Export Version"; it's for US market only and not allowed in Europe. The next loudest version is "TUV-Sound-Version," and finally I would assume "TUV-Version" is the most quiet.
I believe all 3 are available in the US, but to be sure you should check with the US importer, Road Sport Supply. They key to remember is this, once windows are up, even the Loud Version (what a silly name) is not that loud at all. I've been told that in general the trend is that, for US customers, some of those who ask for the more quiet version end up wanting to move to the louder one; the other way around is nearly nonexistent. 

CARP97TET
TÜV-Version
Price: 3.250,00 EUR /3

CARP97TETR
TÜV-Sound-Version
Price: 3.250,00 EUR /3

CARP97TETS
Super Sound Export-Version
Price:3.250,00 EUR /3

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review and Pictures ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Super Darius:

hey!! you forgot someone!!

Don't know what you're talking about, Dario.

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review and Pictures ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

Super Darius:

hey!! you forgot someone!!

Don't know what you're talking about, Dario.

Someone on 6speed recently asked for help on finding an exhaust system for his convertible Turbo; thought I would repost my response here. I think it would be helpful for not just convertible owners, but anyone who is new to this. What to consider and what to listen for when you are thinnking about replacing the Lexus-like sound of the stock Turbo exhaust.

The bottom lines for choosing an after-market exhaust: You have to audition with your own ears as internet audio and video clips are inherently unreliable. As with all mods, pick reputable, established names and don't try to save money.  In general there are reasons for expensive things being expensive.

There are 3 separate issues:
1. Loudness
2. Character of sound
3. Performance

1. Strictly personal preference, and obviously a critical criteria. Most medium loud systems are not that loud at cruising so cell phone *should* be ok.
I should note that if you start out wanting quiet, there is a chance for regret as you end up wishing for louder (and vice versa of course, but I would speculate much less often than the other way around). So the advice is to go for the loudest system you think you would tolerate. The "right" loudness makes the car sound so good that you will be willing to sacrifice certain things. One example, I have the Cargraphic Loud, which despite of the name is IMO only medium loud system, which is not as friendly for mundane conversations, but in return it is pure ectasy when I slam on that throttle. So I readily and willingly take the exchange.

2. Again, obviously another critical criteria and again a matter of strict personal pref. One example of 2 very good and popular systems that people love: Tubi and Cargraphic. The Tubi (at least the first generation, there are now second gen Tubi's that I've not listened to) does not have as much low frequency rumbling as Cargraphic. Tubi is also more quiet. So if that low frequency rumbling and loudness are not important to your taste, then Tubi is the one.
Once again, if I have not said so , let me repeat: if possible, you must try to listen with your own ears if you are serious about this.

3. An after market exhaust is extremely beneficial for an ECU tune because it reduces back pressure, but by itself, don't expect much that you could "feel" as far as true power. All I felt after installing the Cargraphic is that the system seemingly pools up faster, but really there has been no official review/study that proves one way or another re. this faster spooling. There also have been anecdotal reports of some exhaust systems actually causing the car to feel weaker (less torque) in the low end, so I truly felt extremely lucky that my car felt the same, power wise, after the exhaust installation!

For Convertibles, 3 most oft mentioned systems are: Tubi, Milltek, and Cargraphic Quiet, mainly because they are more quiet than others and this might be desirable as convertibles don't have nearly as good sound proofing as coupes. That said, there are people who are happy with FVD and Cargraphic Loud in convertibles, again pointing the fact that this is strictly a matter of personal preference.

While we are on this topic, I should also point out that ECU mods *could* and do make any given exhaust system louder and shift it to a more stressful, higher frequency sound, and this varies from system to system. For a milder example of this, push the Sport button in your car and listen to what it does to the sound. An ECU tune will be similar in the change in character, except more so in intensity. Also, if you are installing Cargraphic in anticipation of an ECU tune, I have been told by those who should know  that the LOUD version allegedly/supposedly is the best because it is the most "free-flow" (least back pressure).

When you audition, keep in mind the car sounds totally different whether you're inside or out. While outside sound is nice for showing off , inside sound is vastly more important for obvious reasons -- your hear this all the time. A good audition should involve riding in, or better yet, driving the car for as long as possible, on both streets and highways.

Click on the link in my signature to see my review of Cargraphic and detailed description of its "character" (basically, menacing, car shaking (I LOVE this!), low rumbling at low rpm, crunchy sound at mid rpm, and an absolute scream at high rpm). Surprisingly, I've become addicted to this sound and it's one of the highlights of my driving experience. I did not expect this addiction when I bought it.  

--
 

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

The bottom lines for choosing an after-market exhaust: You have to audition with your own ears as internet audio and video clips are inherently unreliable.

Caught a little mistake.
Of course one always listens with his "own ears"; I meant to write (if at all possible) you have to audition in person. As in a live audition with the real car and not just listening to internet video clips.
Sorry perhaps because English is not my first language occasionally something funny like this slips through.

BTW, for the skeptics among you who are wondering why these crazy guys are waxing eloquent about "engine noise," I could only tell you  to give it a try; you'll be surprised. I used to laugh at exhaust mod and now I can't be without it. Check that "sport exhaust" option if you model allows it, and try something like Cargraphic if it doesn't. The chance is high you'll be thanking me afterwards.

--
 

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Inside a Muffler

Located inside the muffler is a set of tubes. These tubes are designed to create reflected waves that interfere with each other or cancel each other out. Take a look at the inside of this muffler:

The exhaust gases and the sound waves enter through the center tube. They bounce off the back wall of the muffler and are reflected through a hole into the main body of the muffler. They pass through a set of holes into another chamber, where they turn and go out the last pipe and leave the muffler.

A chamber called a resonator is connected to the first chamber by a hole. The resonator contains a specific volume of air and has a specific length that is calculated to produce a wave that cancels out a certain frequency of sound. How does this happen? Let's take a closer look ...

The Resonator

When a wave hits the hole, part of it continues into the chamber and part of it is reflected. The wave travels through the chamber, hits the back wall of the muffler and bounces back out of the hole. The length of this chamber is calculated so that this wave leaves the resonator chamber just after the next wave reflects off the outside of the chamber. Ideally, the high-pressure part of the wave that came from the chamber will line up with the low-pressure part of the wave that was reflected off the outside of the chamber wall, and the two waves will cancel each other out.

The animation below shows how the resonator works in a simplified muffler.

In reality, the sound coming from the engine is a mixture of many different frequencies of sound, and since many of those frequencies depend on the engine speed, the sound is almost never at exactly the right frequency for this to happen. The resonator is designed to work best in the frequency range where the engine makes the most noise; but even if the frequency is not exactly what the resonator was tuned for, it will still produce some destructive interference.

Some cars, especially luxury cars where quiet operation is a key feature, have another component in the exhaust that looks like a muffler, but is called a resonator. This device works just like the resonator chamber in the muffler -- the dimensions are calculated so that the waves reflected by the resonator help cancel out certain frequencies of sound in the exhaust.

There are other features inside this muffler that help it reduce the sound level in different ways. The body of the muffler is constructed in three layers: Two thin layers of metal with a thicker, slightly insulated layer between them. This allows the body of the muffler to absorb some of the pressure pulses. Also, the inlet and outlet pipes going into the main chamber are perforated with holes. This allows thousands of tiny pressure pulses to bounce around in the main chamber, canceling each other out to some extent in addition to being absorbed by the muffler's housing.

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Great post cannga, thank you. I can't say how much I already learned from you. 

Eunice:

Great post cannga, thank you. I can't say how much I already learned from you. 

And vice versa.

I actually have a question about the 997 C2 Sport Exhaust system for those in the know here. I understand this system has some sort of valve right? You activate some valve to make the car louder?
Do you (anyone) know where this valve is with respect to the diagram above? I guess its function would be to block the entry to that resonator chamber at least partially to reduce cancellation?

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Cannga, could you make a picture thread of tons of your pics. Im in love with your red TT and all the mods you've done! 

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 
_____________________________________________________________________
1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)

I actually have a question about the 997 C2 Sport Exhaust system for those in the know here. I understand this system has some sort of valve right? You activate some valve to make the car louder?
Do you (anyone) know where this valve is with respect to the diagram above? I guess its function would be to block the entry to that resonator chamber at least partially to reduce cancellation?

Just the question marks in my mind!  I have been trying to find some info as to how the PSE works and some pics/cutaways, but have been unsuccessful...

Atzporsche:

Cannga, could you make a picture thread of tons of your pics. Im in love with your red TT and all the mods you've done! 

Blush...  Thank you.
I have a thread here that actually has most of the pictures I've taken of this car, almost every page should have some shots:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/136096-pics-review-my-bilstein-pss10-lowered-red-turbo.html 

Arshad:
Just the question marks in my mind!  I have been trying to find some info as to how the PSE works and some pics/cutaways, but have been unsuccessful...

Just looking at the diagram of the typical muffler, and assuming that PSE involves activation of some  valve, one would think it is one of 2 ways:
1. Either the valve is located around entry pipe and OPENS when activated, to open up a second pathway that bypasses the route towards the resonator. This second pathway would go straight to the exit.
2. Or the valve is located at the resonator and CLOSES when activated, blocking the path to the resonator, to reduce the amount of cancellation wave.

Someone here must know?

--
 

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Someone on another forum asked about the frequently heard problem with "resonance" with after-market exhaust, my response below.

>>>>

I too think the Tubi is a good choice for Convertible, but if at all possible, listen first before making a decision! This is an extremely subjective choice and auditioning in person therefore is critical (web sounds clip are NOT reliable!), as well as educational and fun. Anyone who offers you an audition in your area, I think it's a good idea to take a listen. You might fall in love with something that you didn't plan on at all -- I did with my Cargraphic. Also, the convertible has vastly less sound proofing than a coupe (the reason why Tubi is an excellent choice for Turbo Cab-- relatively, it is more quiet and has less low frequency component/noise), so make sure you audition the "right" car.

As for resonance -- hope to help here with a few of my observations, from having listened to several exhaust systems in multiple cars. And as have been mentioned multiple times, please trust me when it comes to sound as I still listen to music using a turntable and tube components.

1. It is a very subjective description and means different things to different people. To me it is an increase in noise level, and in the case of the Turbo, this is most frequently in the 2500-2800 rpm range or so, and almost always in the higher gear, from 3rd and up.

2. Even the stock exhaust Turbo has a mild version of this. Heard in 3rd gear and up as a mild and louder hum, almost like the engine lugging noise. It disappears definitely by 3000. In fact, all resonance in the Turbo, regardless of exhaust system, should disappear by 3000. If not, you have a problem.

3. If you search the forums enough, you will see that the word "resonance" is mentioned with nearly every single after-market exhaust out there.

4. That said, in my experience, the noise is louder the louder a particular exhaust is, and the more low frequency it has. This is a fact of life: If you want a loud exhaust with a nice low frequency rumbling (things I LOVE), it's going to be louder across the range. Also important to keep in mind, the mods you put in your car, like stiffer suspension components and ECU tune, could increase the noise level and could make the resonance worse.

5. In the end, why is it not a problem with a majority of exhausts people are using? The way we drive and the way we adapt our driving. The Turbo power kicks in at 3000, so most of the times, the shift, if you are a "good" driver , is done at above 3000. Basically, you do go through 2500 rpm in first gear, but here because it's low gear, there is no resonance, then from then on you will hardly see 2500 again until cruising level.
And if you are a good Turbo driver, you don't cruise at 2500.

(NB: Discussion for manual cars only. I have no experience with automatic Turbo.)

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Finally got a drive in a GT3 (at *decent* speed and rpm, for a period of time through some canyons in LA, back to back with my Turbo). I could confidently say that in both loudness and character, the 2 exhaust systems of  stock GT3 and Cargraphic Turbo sound surprisingly similar.

Out of cabin and going to max rpm, true, they don't sound the same. GT3 has a beautiful high frequency howl (like a wolf!) to its 8000+ rpm, somewhat similar to the beatiful Lambo song . Turbo Cargraphic has more menacing low frequency at low rpm, and doesn't howl the same way as rpm climbs. Its character is more of a crackling, machine gun type sound.

But in cabin, where it matters most, with respect to the 3 important parameters of exhaust sound evaluation, a. loudness, b. character, and c. frequency, the Turbo Cargraphic yields very little. Once the cabin & rearward pointing exhaust position have filtered out much of the exhaust sound, particularly the high frequency component, the 2 systems sound most-surprisingly similar. Both very sporty, loud, and fun. As mentioned, I don't work for Cargraphic and couldn't care less how much $ they make, just sharing something that's very special here.

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Great post on sound

Now what about handling and power / feeling?

Slow In, Fast Out

FFaust:

Great post on sound

Now what about handling and power / feeling?

Ahh I knew this was coming. Can't tell you... this will be topic of my next thread! Just kidding.

What stood out so much from the drive is it's amazing how 2 cars based on the same chassis could feel so different from each other. The GT3-Turbo dichotomy, one of handling versus power, is unsolveable and the only way "out" is to own one of each.  
The GT3 takes curves as if on rail. Car is borne for twisty roads and the tighter the curves the better it gets. It has fantastic handling and linear power delivery (although it seems there is a jump around 5000 rpm -- any GT3 owner wants to comment?). Turbo cannot catch GT3 in tight curves -- Turbo leans too much.
OTOH, at any given gear, any given speed, any given rpm, the Turbo catches the GT3 as if it is standing still. The explosive power delivery of the Turbo is un-matched in today's market and GT3 feels very weak in comparison. No power at all below 5000 rpm. (Do keep in mind my car has a GIAC tune, which makes the stock Turbo feel like a slow boat, but... even a stock Turbo will overwhelm a GT3 in straightline speed.)

On canyon road, or lake Como type road (Darius are you listening? :-)), the GT3 is better and more fun because of the handling. (My Bilstein Turbo cannot take curves as fast, let alone the stock Turbo.) On straight roads/freeways and longer cruise the Turbo is better and more fun because of the power. It feels like a torpedo and the sense of limitless power is missed dearly when I drove the GT3. 
I almost want to say the GT3 is more of a weekend car, but then it's not entirely true because if you want power, then the Turbo is a better weekend car. Let's just say the GT3 is among the best handling cars in the world, but has to be a second car in the garage, the Turbo could be the only car, a dual purpose daily driver. The GT3 is a "2-hours" car, must be driven all out to feel the excitement and will get tiring beyond that. The Turbo does not have to be driven all out to be fun. I felt relieved coming back to my Turbo after going "at it" LOL with the GT3.

One thing of interest is that from the standpoint of a Turbo owner, on all out straightline acceleration, it seems to me the front end of the GT3 feels eerily light, in fact the whole car feels eerily light. (This is merely impression of an amateur, so please take with a grain of salt and don't get too excited. LOL)
The weight distributions between Turbo (39/61) and GT3 (38/62) are not that different, so I have to think that this difference comes from both the slight additional weight, AND the traction of the 4wd system. The GT3's stiffer suspension must also play a part. At any rate, I used to think the 4wd is a hindrance, now it's clear I will have to keep a 4wd 911 in my modest Porsche "collection." The Turbo's 4wd gives a "sense" (real or not, I don't know) of absolute control during all out acceleration coming out of curves. The car IMHO "feels" much more like a "normal" car, front end more "calming," versus a true 911, with engine hanging beyond the rear axle.

The funny thing about this drive is that it brings back the dilemma of PDK. Keep in mind that I am as much a manual die-hard as anyone out there, but... I am now convinced, more than ever, that PDK is a must for all-out 10/10 driving and for a car like the GT3. The joy of shifting is for real yes, but most definitely is secondary when your goal is to be fast. Plainly and simply, PDK is faster. In the case of non-Turbo 911's, I also think an automatic type gear-box hides the torque deficiency and makes the car feel better and faster subjectively.
PDK and perhaps elongated wheel base with engine moved towards the front? The future is exciting indeed. I  think PAG is **OBLIGATED** to deliver its race oriented 991 cars with PDK and hopefully we will see this in next generation's GT2 and GT3.
 

--
 

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Thanks for the report Can, you have a way to describe "things" in real world terms that make it easy to relate. At first I thought of asking if you would consider trading in your TT, but I got my answer further down.

I am with you on the PDK paradox. For me it's manual all the way, but it certainly is not as cut and dried when ultimate performance is the objective (well actually maybe it is, but I think that you know what I mean).

Slow In, Fast Out

FFaust:

Thanks for the report Can, you have a way to describe "things" in real world terms that make it easy to relate. At first I thought of asking if you would consider trading in your TT, but I got my answer further down.

I am with you on the PDK paradox. For me it's manual all the way, but it certainly is not as cut and dried when ultimate performance is the objective (well actually maybe it is, but I think that you know what I mean).

No, no plan to trade in. Problem with having the Turbo is that every other car I drive now, I miss that explosive forward propulsion.

Keep in mind also the Bilstein Turbo's handling is better than 95% of cars on the road. I am comparing it to a track oriented car here. Plus, I drive the car daily and only the Turbo could fulfill that role.

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

PDK has a natural home in the GTxx series, and I was in fact wondering why the current GT3 & GT3RS don't come with PDK. 

--

Arshad:

PDK has a natural home in the GTxx series, and I was in fact wondering why the current GT3 & GT3RS don't come with PDK. 

To the best of my knowledge, the reason it doesn't is (anyone please correct me as needed) the PDK box doesn't "fit" with the Mezger engine, and GT3 needs Mezger engine for homologation purpose.

Interstingly enough, Walter Rohrl in an interview in Panorama states he's no faster in the manual Turbo than the PDK Turbo. Assuming he's a fast shifter and shifts with much more "abandonment" than most owners would, it leaves little doubt as to which car is faster in amateurs' hands. 
Subjectively, I think the PDK is also better because by minimizing the drop in RPM during shift, it limits the time spent in lower RPM, where Porsche's flat 6 has very little torque, and gives the sensation of a very fast car. That was my experience with the PDK Boxster.

If GT2 uses the new engine, then I think it would come with PDK. What's left then is the GT3; I am extremely curious as to Porsche's move for next generation GT3 would be. To PDK or not to PDK?!

--
 

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

What stood out so much from the drive is it's amazing how 2 cars based on the same chassis could feel so different from each other. The GT3-Turbo dichotomy, one of handling versus power, is unsolveable and the only way "out" is to own one of each.

BTW, I asked, and my tuner (Lucent Motors, small shop, better known among GT3 & racer crowd in Los Angeles) confirmed for me, the puzzle is not totally unsolvable. The answer is going to be in the springs. Not the drop link, not the various more rigid suspension links, not just alignment change, and not just the sway bar. It's the spring rates and here the dictum "stiffer is almost always better" once again rears its ugly head.

I now face a dilemma. How I could stay passive knowing that the GT3 eats my Turbo for dessert, lunch, and dinner in the canyons? It was ridiculous. As I switched back and forth between the 2 cars, I was shocked at how the GT3 just dove into a curve at high speed, while my Turbo had to use the outside lane (to increase the curve diameter), AND drastically cut its speed. Anyone who has driven both Turbo and GT3 will know this, in a straight-line turbo wins, but  in a tight curve the GT3 annihilates the Turbo, even one that is modified with Bilstein.

It is obvious for me, that the Bilstein Turbo is still too soft. The Bilstein Turbo handles better than 90% of cars out there (very similar to 997 C2S, maybe slightly stiffer). But that's not the point. The point is, the GT3 handles not just better, but much better. And THAT... drives me crazy. 
How much of this softness could I sacrifice while keeping it a daily driver? Is there a happy mid point? This then, will be the next big adventure with my beloved Turbo. I am an amateur and hardly a suspension expert, but I do have a secret weapon: my tuner is a seasoned veteran of Porsche suspension tuning.

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

I now face a dilemma. How I could stay passive knowing that the GT3 eats my Turbo for dessert, lunch, and dinner in the canyons? It was ridiculous. As I switched back and forth between the 2 cars, I was shocked at how the GT3 just dove into a curve at high speed, while my Turbo had to use the outside lane (to increase the curve diameter), AND drastically cut its speed. Anyone who has driven both Turbo and GT3 will know this, in a straight-line turbo wins, but  in a tight curve the GT3 annihilates the Turbo, even one that is modified with Bilstein.

It is obvious for me, that the Bilstein Turbo is still too soft. The Bilstein Turbo handles better than 90% of cars out there (very similar to 997 C2S, maybe slightly stiffer). But that's not the point. The point is, the GT3 handles not just better, but much better. And THAT... drives me crazy. 
How much of this softness could I sacrifice while keeping it a daily driver? Is there a happy mid point? This then, will be the next big adventure with my beloved Turbo. 

Wow, those are pretty strong words so be careful, it's a slippery slope I can only see one place for this to go... and I'm afraid that the path does not necessarily involve tuning / further refining your "beloved Turbo"

Slow In, Fast Out

FFaust:

Wow, those are pretty strong words so be careful, it's a slippery slope I can only see one place for this to go... and I'm afraid that the path does not necessarily involve tuning / further refining your "beloved Turbo"

Not to worry. The transformation is already done; I am just too lazy to start the thread yet.  GT3 is a 5000 plus rpm car and I don't see myself using it as a daily driver, plus there is a problem with my torque addiction.

The goal is not to turn my Turbo into a GT3 - I would just switch cars or buy a used GT2 if that's the case -- but to get 80% there. Judging by the result so far,  I plan to be a "fixture" on the Turbo forum for the foreseeable future.

--
 

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Can, I believe you're poisoned with the GT3 virus!!! It happened to me too.

Maybe a GT2 is your better solution.

997 GT3 RS

Mikla:

Can, I believe you're poisoned with the GT3 virus!!! It happened to me too.

Maybe a GT2 is your better solution.

It's not that simple. GT2 is the king of 911, but...

In tight twisty roads, I actually prefer the linearity of the GT3. Turbo torque "explodes" at 3-4000 rpm then drops off, NA torque climbs linearly to 5000 or so and then stays high (and boy is it  *good* above 5000!); it feels more natural and is easier to handle.

To lay down all that power, for me the Turbo's 4WD system with its superior traction is the best and safest way. (That's a major reason why the PDK Turbo is breaking all kinds of acceleration record.) A 4WD 911 also has the most "normal" front-end feel to me. It's not so eerily light.

I think my problem is simply that I see something to like in every Porsche I drive. (I am  the quintessential Porsche nut and the perfect Porsche customer. ) Regardless, because of its own unique characters and functions, the Turbo can't and won't be replaced. More so now that I've had the body roll in check.
If rumor is true that the engineers are lengthening the wheel base to push the engine forward, and if they add PDK, I don't know if I could resist adding a PDK GT3 to my Turbo though. Now that...  would be a dream garage. PDK, manual, turbo engine, NA engine, 2wd, 4wd. Something of everything!

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

I think the same way... shame I cannot afford to have both!

997 GT3 RS

Mikla:

I think the same way... shame I cannot afford to have both!

Mikla, looking at your car, I don't feel to sorry for you!

And thanks for reminding me of my "judiciary responsibility," LOL, to my family. "Forum chatting" aside I am content and don't plan to change or add another car to my Turbo until at least 4-5 years from now.

Let's drink to the privilege of owning a Porsche 911!

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Can this is exactly what i wanted to do with my tt and trust me when I say that it is possible and then some. It involves though a lot more than just changing shocks and sways. I can elaborate on the subject as much as you guys want but it is possible to get within 95% of GT3s cornering at tight corners and same if not more in high speed corners (+ the endless power/torque of course). The main issue is weight and also the suspension components that the tt has that are geared towards comfort and.. electronic interference!

The moment you eliminate those rubber bushings the car changes completely, you dont even need the PSM button on, I literally lapped on a dump/wet silverstone with corsas with PSM off and lever lost the car with 670hp/850nm. The car is a lot more stable, the PSM comes on a lot less, so does the PTM for that matter. You are right regarding the springs but you ll find that if you take off weight (GT2 seats, Dymags, titanium exhaust, lithium batery, pccbs) then you come close to GT2 weight and the damptronic springs feel stiffer as well. I have no roll in my car even on track conditions. And the dymags have eliminated understeer tremendously.. (do you have lsd?)

I drove a GT3 with intraxx (a hell of alot better and stiffer than stock gt3) and it felt a bit stiffer but not more stable. Steering is a bit different because of the 4wd but tt can get close enough with the above.

PM me if you want more observations as I have tried pretty much most compenents out there towards the goal you mention above.

GT, thanks for the valuable input. Very interesting and makes sense that weight reduction make springs feel stiffer. At any rate, I guess I let the cat ("Bilstein Stage 2 with Lucent stiffer spring setup") out of the bag a little too early . I meant to have a longer evaluation period before discussing this, so I don't get myself in "trouble." LOL

To borrow the terms from my audio hobby, roughly, very roughly:

1. Micro-dynamics: For example, replace stock with after-market toe control arm, upper control arm, drop link, etc., with stiffer bushing (metal instead of rubber), to reduce geometry/alignment change under load.

2. Macro-dynamics: Spring, damper, anti-sway bar, tire wall stiffness (cup versus street). Components that affect and control traction and weight transfer; namely, body roll, dive, and squat.

While both 1 and 2 changes are beneficial, we identify the main "problem" with the turbo as BODY ROLL and feel the best way to address this is with stiffer spring. I don't want to talk too much about it yet but the result so far is quite satisfactory.
There is of course sacrifice in ride comfort and the Turbo now acts much like its GT3 brother when it sees bump at high speed (it doesn't like it), but the car corners as if on rail, at much higher speed and in a deeply satisfying manner. I mean really, really, really fun. ABOVE ALL, the biggest and most pleasant surprise: the steering has become much firmer and direct, instantaneous in its response and therefore much "purer." This is the first time that I am happy with the Turbo's steering, to me one of its weakest points.

We decided on a 1:1 spring setup, no split between front and rear rate (We would have used 200 plus on rear if car is going to be tracked, for example 550 front and 750 rear, but that is too bumpy and too "loose" for the way I use this car and my level of driving.), and no re-valve.  The rear of the Turbo seems particularly sensitive to loss of ride comfort (bumpiness) when springs or sway bar are stiffened. I found out (old news to the tuner of course) that Bilstein uses non-standard 70mm ID spring! Son of a gun. So far, no excessive understeer, and no bobbing/softness from not enough rebound dampening. We are paying attention to traction versus sense of control versus sense of comfort; and so far so good. Actually so far, excellent.

Please don't make me talk too much though. I'll discuss all when, and if, I have all the facts straight. Suspension issue on a Cargraphic thread, people will be confused when I refer them!

--

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )