Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: -20mm Sports Chassis - Page1

Nov 25, 2007 7:50:52 PM

pride355: Rennteam Pro; Loc: iSTANBUL , Turkey; Posts: 2475, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2005

How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

My 07 Carrera S w/ -20mm sports chassie is at 20K km, now.
I fed up of the stiffness of the sports chassie and can't bear it any more. Therefore, I'm looking for a way to soften the suspansion.

Is it possible to change the shocks or the springs or both to soften the ride without upsetting the car's balance???

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Nov 25, 2007 8:02:55 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: pride355

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Yes, since you don't have PASM, you can upgrade to virtually any coilovers you like (Bilstein PSS9, Moton, H&R, Ohlins, JIC, JRZ, standard Porsche 997 suspension, etc.)

You may want/need to change the swaybars too (adjustable ones would be good to make sure you have the perfect balance with the LSD from your suspension package).

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Nov 25, 2007 11:05:28 PM

hellgelb: Senior; Loc: Ecosse , United Kingdom; Posts: 659, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Is it worth trying 18 inch wheels / tyres on the car first ?

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Nov 25, 2007 11:29:25 PM

Erik: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 172, Gallery; Registered on: May 21, 2002; Reply to: hellgelb

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Yes, try an 18 inch wheel, and tire with soft sidewalls.

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Nov 26, 2007 6:33:48 AM

silvershadow: Senior; Loc: Zuerich, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 757, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 6, 2003; Reply to: Erik

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Try softer tires with 18" rims.
Keep in mind that the softest component in the spring chain going from the chassis to the ground is the assembly of Tire and Rims. This means that they are the first thing to ply with if you want to soften your car.
If you need more infos on this matter just ask.
Cheers

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Nov 26, 2007 1:35:41 PM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005; Reply to: silvershadow

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

First I'd check the tyre pressures and see if you can let some air out to the minimum safe pressure. Not a big difference but would be noticable if they are currently set at the top of the recommended range. If you don't fancy 18's different brands of tyres will make a difference. My PS2's were softer than my P Zeros at the same pressure.

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Nov 26, 2007 8:35:56 PM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Thanks Pink Panther,

Your advice is excellent.

I drive my NSX and Carrera 2005 with tires 6 lbs below the recommended......to take away the inevitable harhness on our less than European-style roads, used by the testers of our beloved cares.

* Each pound is equivalent to circa 50-80 units of spring tension.
* My NSX has NEVER shown any wear irregularity [or excess wear or heating] in 10 years of driving [highway to my favorite little lake] at 100mph cruising + fast cornering.
* Why? On track days, after 2-3 laps, you stop and REDUCE the pressure DOWN to the standard values! Reductions of 4-6 lbs frequent------ notes on this is UK Porsche Mags---and THEN blow them UP again before driving home. The Handbook NEVER mentions this as most people would gorget to blow them up again.
* Thus at low speeds on typical city roads you have comfortable ride, and autmatically optimum pressures at the higher highway speeds.
* Check and adjust your tires frequently---I change my pressures on any day I am doing a serious drive, to match any extremes in ambient.

Try this before doing anything extreme to your 997S!

Bonne Chance

KiwiCanuck

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Nov 26, 2007 10:54:59 PM

pride355: Rennteam Pro; Loc: iSTANBUL , Turkey; Posts: 2475, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2005; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Quote:
Pink Panther said:
First I'd check the tyre pressures and see if you can let some air out to the minimum safe pressure. Not a big difference but would be noticable if they are currently set at the top of the recommended range. If you don't fancy 18's different brands of tyres will make a difference. My PS2's were softer than my P Zeros at the same pressure.

Thank you for your kind advise but checking the tire pressures was my first attempt to soften the ride. In fact, my tire pressures were 31-34; because of the cooling weather, they decrease and make the ride harsher. I increase them to 36-39 (F-R) which made the feel of the car better.

I have continantel sport contact, and my tyre shop told me that they are softer than michelins thus they last lower millage.

I also think that 18" rims will work better but I prefer to change the sprigs if it is possible.

I really blame myself not to opt for PASM.

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Nov 26, 2007 10:57:07 PM

pride355: Rennteam Pro; Loc: iSTANBUL , Turkey; Posts: 2475, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2005; Reply to: pride355

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Thank you all for your time to help to solve my problem

Which tire sizes shall I go if I put 18" rims??

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Nov 27, 2007 2:39:02 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: pride355

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Quote:
pride355 said:
I really blame myself not to opt for PASM.

No, you did the right thing, since you have a Limited Slip Differential. It's easy to change shocks/springs, but hard to add LSD after purchase...

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Nov 27, 2007 1:26:04 PM

pride355: Rennteam Pro; Loc: iSTANBUL , Turkey; Posts: 2475, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
pride355 said:
I really blame myself not to opt for PASM.

No, you did the right thing, since you have a Limited Slip Differential. It's easy to change shocks/springs, but hard to add LSD after purchase...

I choose the sports chassie because of the LSD. I wasn't interested in reduced ride height or race track oriented chassie; but I didn't expect it to be this much stiff.
If I were to do it all over again, I would go with the PASM.

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Nov 27, 2007 1:31:47 PM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: pride355

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Quote:
pride355 said:
Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
pride355 said:
I really blame myself not to opt for PASM.

No, you did the right thing, since you have a Limited Slip Differential. It's easy to change shocks/springs, but hard to add LSD after purchase...

I choose the sports chassie because of the LSD. I wasn't interested in reduced ride height or race track oriented chassie; but I didn't expect it to be this much stiff.
If I were to do it all over again, I would go with the PASM.

Well, not offense to your roads, but it has to do a lot with road conditions. I loved the -20mm setup. It was so precise and comfortable even long distance...
I am not sure 18inch will get you to the sort of comfort level that you are after.
You should ask members on the board that do have 997S/-20mm with 18" equipped for winter (Gnil is one I know of).
I never had 18" on it, because I mounted winter contis on the car in 19". Good luck!

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Nov 27, 2007 4:30:49 PM

chipper: Pilot; Loc: Hawai'i; Posts: 400, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 20, 2003; Reply to: Jeannot

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

I had a similar problem with an '06 Carrera without PASM and 19" wheels. Though the car did not have sport chassis, it rode harder than I liked. I put on stock 18" wheels and Continental sport contact tires and lowered the pressure as much as I could without compromising the steering feel, etc. That helped, but the car still didn't ride as comfortably as I would have liked, plus the stock 18" wheels look OK, but not nearly as nice as the 19s.

In my opinion, the 997 cars without PASM ride a bit too hard for everyday use.

I now have a GT3 which, ironically, rides better in "normal" PASM mode than my '06 Carrera w/out PASM ever did with either 18s or 19s. The GT3 does not jar over bumps like the base Carrera did. The hard ride is why I sold the Carrera.

I hope Porsche will keep developing PASM, to increase the comfort of the "normal" mode, while retaining a stiffer mode from track and sport use. Maybe even three settings, comfort, normal, sport.

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Nov 27, 2007 7:11:51 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14174, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: chipper

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

I drive my 997 C4S - 20 mm in winter on 18'' rims and the difference is not major ( will put then back on the 6th of december, so I can tell you again )
If I were you I would put softer springs. It is easely done, and I am pretty sure you would get the result your are looking for.
Then you will have exactly what you wanted , LSD and a soft ride

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Nov 28, 2007 10:09:33 PM

pride355: Rennteam Pro; Loc: iSTANBUL , Turkey; Posts: 2475, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2005; Reply to: Jeannot

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Quote:
Jeannot said:
Well, not offense to your roads, but it has to do a lot with road conditions. I loved the -20mm setup. It was so precise and comfortable even long distance...
I am not sure 18inch will get you to the sort of comfort level that you are after.
You should ask members on the board that do have 997S/-20mm with 18" equipped for winter (Gnil is one I know of).
I never had 18" on it, because I mounted winter contis on the car in 19". Good luck!

No offense taken but we have very poor roads; especially in and around Istanbul. Actually, sports chassie has a very good set-up on smooth roads but it is not suitable for my country.
On the other hand; I have driven my friend's M3 CSL a few months ago and that car was also very agile and nimble, yet it was more comfortable. IMO, it has the perfect balance and I find the sports chassie on the very stiff side, nevertheless.

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Nov 28, 2007 10:11:47 PM

pride355: Rennteam Pro; Loc: iSTANBUL , Turkey; Posts: 2475, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2005; Reply to: chipper

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Quote:
chipper said:
I had a similar problem with an '06 Carrera without PASM and 19" wheels. Though the car did not have sport chassis, it rode harder than I liked. I put on stock 18" wheels and Continental sport contact tires and lowered the pressure as much as I could without compromising the steering feel, etc. That helped, but the car still didn't ride as comfortably as I would have liked, plus the stock 18" wheels look OK, but not nearly as nice as the 19s.

In my opinion, the 997 cars without PASM ride a bit too hard for everyday use.

I now have a GT3 which, ironically, rides better in "normal" PASM mode than my '06 Carrera w/out PASM ever did with either 18s or 19s. The GT3 does not jar over bumps like the base Carrera did. The hard ride is why I sold the Carrera.

I hope Porsche will keep developing PASM, to increase the comfort of the "normal" mode, while retaining a stiffer mode from track and sport use. Maybe even three settings, comfort, normal, sport.

I'm very curies why PORSCHE doesn't offer LSD with PASM for Carrera models, since LSD is offered with PASM for Turbo and GT3.
I can't understand the logic

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Nov 28, 2007 10:13:47 PM

pride355: Rennteam Pro; Loc: iSTANBUL , Turkey; Posts: 2475, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2005; Reply to: Gnil

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Quote:
Gnil said:
I drive my 997 C4S - 20 mm in winter on 18'' rims and the difference is not major ( will put then back on the 6th of december, so I can tell you again )
If I were you I would put softer springs. It is easely done, and I am pretty sure you would get the result your are looking for.
Then you will have exactly what you wanted , LSD and a soft ride

Hi Gnil,

I also think that best way to go is to opt for softer springs but which one??
Which softer rate spring would be competible with my car's struts??

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Nov 28, 2007 10:52:35 PM

porkernut: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 85, Gallery; Registered on: May 30, 2006; Reply to: pride355

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

I really don't think 18 inch wheels will make a big difference, better to change the suspension set up, or Px the car for one with PASM.
But I would warn you that the car you have is more fun & better controlled than a PASM equipped car on the twisty stuff. There is always a trade off, a more comfortable ride will generally give you more roll, float & pitch.. although PASM style technology is getting better at giving us the best of both worlds witness the 997GT3!!
Anyway adjustable springs is probably the way to go if you don't want to PX, talk to your dealer or a specialist about Bilstein etc!

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Nov 28, 2007 11:16:48 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: porkernut

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Quote:
porkernut said: But I would warn you that the car you have is more fun & better controlled than a PASM equipped car on the twisty stuff. There is always a trade off, a more comfortable ride will generally give you more roll, float & pitch.

Really expensive shocks like Moton, JRZ, Penske, etc. can give you much better handling than -20mm or PASM or Bilstein and can also give better ride. You need to choose spring rates and damper settings carefully with an expert, but you can achieve both better ride and better handling.

Downside is that it's very expensive and you need to rebuild the shocks periodically.

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Nov 29, 2007 7:56:38 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14174, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: pride355

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Quote:
pride355 said:
Quote:
Gnil said:
I drive my 997 C4S - 20 mm in winter on 18'' rims and the difference is not major ( will put then back on the 6th of december, so I can tell you again )
If I were you I would put softer springs. It is easely done, and I am pretty sure you would get the result your are looking for.
Then you will have exactly what you wanted , LSD and a soft ride

Hi Gnil,

I also think that best way to go is to opt for softer springs but which one??
Which softer rate spring would be competible with my car's struts??

I don't know which ones would be the best for you. Ask you dealer if he knows, members on ths forum could help too .
I would email or call H&R and ask tem directly

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Nov 30, 2007 5:33:18 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: pride355

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Quote:
pride355 said:I also think the best way to go is to opt for softer springs but which one??
Which softer rate spring would be competible with my car's struts??

Stiff struts and shocks will not work properly with soft springs. You need to have matching dampers and springs.

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Nov 30, 2007 7:21:00 AM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

I would install the standard suspension of the 3.6 Carrera. The extra 30HP would be handled very easily, I think. Say if a Carrera 3.6 driver tunes the car to deliver extra 30 HP he wouldn't have to change the suspension. For example RUF tunes the Cayman to deliver 400 HP from 295 HP with the standard suspension.

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Nov 30, 2007 5:28:20 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: pride355

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

I might be able to check back with Bilstein directly reg. your subject. From my point of view I would change springs and shocks simultaneously, if you have a trustworthy shop to perform the installation a (fully) adjustable coilover system would enable you to adapt ride height and suspension settings to suit your driving applications & needs as much as your country's road conditions. Furthermore once any of these will change, you can alter the car's characteristics easily.

Those coilover systems might not be cheap but since they might be manufactured of even better and suitable components it can give you sufficient damping and performance.

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Dec 1, 2007 9:38:18 AM

FLORENT KAVADAS: Co-Pilot; Loc: Corfu Greece; Posts: 264, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2006; Reply to: pride355

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

I have the same car as you and the same Greek roads...
I would not change the wheels to 18"
I have put nitrogen in my tyres. this has helpped a bit too.
Now this is difficult for me to tell you what kind of srpings you can put on but I do not regret having this setup.
If you cant do anything else and money and passion for porsche is not an issue then
a) Get one with PASM
b) Get a new M3...

Best regards,

Florent.

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Dec 6, 2007 3:01:46 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: FLORENT KAVADAS

-20mm Sports Chassis

I have the -20mm sports suspension with rear LSD. I know you have disliked the ride quality right from the start, pride355.

Me? I just love it...and we have some of the worst roads in W Europe... so, the only adjustment I made was not to my car but to my backside and to my brain telling them not to expect a Benz quality level of ride comfort.

Apart from that, try the new M3. It may be the car for you. All the best

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Dec 6, 2007 8:40:29 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: -20mm Sports Chassis

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:Me? I just love it...and we have some of the worst roads in W Europe...

Same here, I love it, its just perfect! stiff and sporty but not kart-stiff, corners flat, and steering feel is sensational. But that is subjective so I can understand how other may think its too stiff.

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Dec 7, 2007 5:15:02 PM

pride355: Rennteam Pro; Loc: iSTANBUL , Turkey; Posts: 2475, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2005; Reply to: FLORENT KAVADAS

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

Quote:
FLORENT KAVADAS said:
If you cant do anything else and money and passion for porsche is not an issue then
a) Get one with PASM
b) Get a new M3...
Best regards,

Florent.

I decided to go for the new M3; probably for the new M3 CSL.
It suits me better; in terms of handling behaviour and style.

I'll see

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Dec 10, 2007 6:12:16 PM

FLORENT KAVADAS: Co-Pilot; Loc: Corfu Greece; Posts: 264, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2006; Reply to: pride355

Re: How Do I Soften -20mm Sports Chassie

I think that you shall do the right choice....!

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Dec 10, 2007 9:51:50 PM

pride355: Rennteam Pro; Loc: iSTANBUL , Turkey; Posts: 2475, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: -20mm Sports Chassis

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
I have the -20mm sports suspension with rear LSD. I know you have disliked the ride quality right from the start, pride355.

Me? I just love it...and we have some of the worst roads in W Europe... so, the only adjustment I made was not to my car but to my backside and to my brain telling them not to expect a Benz quality level of ride comfort.

Apart from that, try the new M3. It may be the car for you. All the best

Hi Easy_Rider

I hope everything is fine and life goes perfectly

Tomorrow, I'll join the army for the millatary service for the next 5 months.
When I come back, hopefully I would have sold my 911 and order for the new M3.
If BMW will make M3 CSL, I'll get that.
You are right; just from the beginning I didn't like my Carrera S very much although it is a fabolous car.

Take care, and happy driving

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