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    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    I always believed the FXX was a bit of a gimmick to involve Ferrari's wealthier clientèle and extract exorbitant amounts of money from them ( to fund the REAL development programme -hehehe)

    Then again, since I am not a Ferrari VIP customer/race employee, I can't say for sure what they do with the "telemetry/other data" that they gather from the FXXs....



    Your probably right. I just wondering where my invite ended up?!?!?!??!



    Probably still in the mailbox at that apartment in Monte Carlo you've forgotten you own.

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    I always believed the FXX was a bit of a gimmick to involve Ferrari's wealthier clientèle and extract exorbitant amounts of money from them ( to fund the REAL development programme -hehehe)

    Then again, since I am not a Ferrari VIP customer/race employee, I can't say for sure what they do with the "telemetry/other data" that they gather from the FXXs....



    To a point I agree with your post. The upper echelon clients are recruited using their money to give feedback on technology slated for future cars. But the technology had already been tested by professionals under race conditions.

    This is in contrast with the Porsche approach which is incorporate, charge and have a press release telling its gullible customers what a great innovation they are paying for.

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    I am with Nick on this one.

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    I always believed the FXX was a bit of a gimmick to involve Ferrari's wealthier clientèle and extract exorbitant amounts of money from them ( to fund the REAL development programme -hehehe)

    Then again, since I am not a Ferrari VIP customer/race employee, I can't say for sure what they do with the "telemetry/other data" that they gather from the FXXs....



    To a point I agree with your post. The upper echelon clients are recruited using their money to give feedback on technology slated for future cars. But the technology had already been tested by professionals under race conditions.

    This is in contrast with the Porsche approach which is incorporate, charge and have a press release telling its gullible customers what a great innovation they are paying for.



    Agree....

    Real limiter on FXX/430C sales is fact that most wealthy guys have busy business/personal scheds and have lim interest in visiting tracks in Podunk on any pre-planned basis....any cars (incl FXX/Veyron) are awfully cheap vs costs of casually flying around in a G550-caliber plane.....

    P R&D has been asleep for yrs....thus, the Luddite gearboxes; turbo lag; primitive PASM/PSM/PTM interface; need for real-world-incompatible ground clearance to achieve handling....and continuing (or increased) RMS issues on even vaunted GT3 motors (perhaps stressed-out elderly-tech motors??? )

    F is laudable for its impressive tech advances in gearboxes, chassis/drivetrain computer networks....and daily-useability/reliability advances.....hopefully, Dino will allow F R&D to have sufficient scale to focus on upgrading F safety engineering out of the stone age.....given the current era of increasingly smart virtual software modeling, etc, perhaps F safety will rival P's in next 2-3 yrs and make P essentially obsolete/irrelevant for dynamics/tech-focused car nuts (no worries, elderly nostalgic enthusiasts will buy P's for next 20+yrs, sort of like the Linc/Caddy buyer base in FL )....

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    I guess you are referring to the First generation PCCBs, yes I thought that little "episode" was hilarious by Porsche.

    A little point worth mentioning is, that despite obviously insufficient cooling, and the advent of better cooling in the later generations, one of the BIGGEST reasons why many were experiencing 1st gen PCCB failure was because they were using incorrect pads when on the track. Many did get quite good life out of their 1st gen PCCBs on the track by switching to the correct pad. That said, it was still quite unacceptable how fragile they were.

    As for WBH's rants, you seem to have a doppleganger nberry. I agree with certain points of your posts WBH, but often you go overboard, the new VTG turbos do indeed reduce/nearly eliminate turbo lag altogether and have proven quite reliable in their first iteration.

    However, I would venture that Porsche is definitely holding BACK technologies that they have already developed, maybe for fear of repeating another "use the customer as a guinea pig" incident.

    More likely though, the delays are due to their for desire of profits over everything else. The marketing department runs Porsche now, and they hold back new technologies for the facelift models/etc because they KNOW they can extract more money from customers without having the latest, greatest.

    I too am quite irate with Porsche about these matters and I am slowly becoming disenchanted with their 'strategies'.

    How long has porsche's die hard been waiting for...

    * A fix for RMS?
    * iPod integration?
    * Direct injection?
    * DSG?

    Far too long. And I am afraid they will have to wait longer. But as WBH said, there will continue to be buyers and for that reason alone there is no need for them to push out the technology asap.

    More importantly, how does Porsche treat their customers who complain about current issues? They turn a blind eye and hope it will go away, maybe taking action when someone makes a really big ruckus.

    How do they treat their customers who ask for new technology that is obviously long overdue? They pretend to care, and will release it when it affects their bottom line.

    How does their dealer network treat their so called VIP customers? By ripping them off when a new highly desirable limited edition model comes out.

    What happens in the end? They continue to produce more and more irrelevant, bloated niche models, becoming the Mercedes of the sportscar world. The limited models like the GT3 become desirable because of the hardcore pretense, but the designation is pillaged to deliver an inferior model to appease poseurs. A superior variant with more letters is released in even more limited quantities, dealers rip off their loyal customers (because they can) and even more of these cars fall into the hands of poseurs. The more of those people buy these cars, the more their money dictates what Porsche should make. A dangerous spiral.

    All very bad business I say. They are venturing farther and farther from their original philosophy and indeed, their legacy.

    PS.

    Maybe they should have kept Ulrich Bez, he has really turned Aston around, and kept it true to it's heritage. (So far) With the advent of the new separation from ford and ownership by Prodrive/Investment Consortium, mostly backed with hard cash... the future looks bright.

    From a historial/financial timeline perspective, it is interesting to compare Porsche and Aston, both on the brink of death - Porsche (Mid 90s) Aston '90-2000, both turned around quite remarkably, but in different ways.

    Sigh... what's the point in grinding on and on about this. I have to say it. Porsche has really lost it.

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    All that said (I agree with most of it), P still builds some fast cars with great handling...

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Without a doubt one of the best analysis of Porsche corporate strategy I have read in years. I wish I wrote it.

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    I don't know what's happening to me, I used to think p-car bashers were all trolls, but having owned a few, worked for them in Shanghai, and seeing what happened when I tried to buy a Turbo/GT3RS at launch... it was all really f'ed up.

    Perhaps the one of the few things I may have forgotten to say was what Scifrog said they do still have a few models that truly excite, but the fiasco that happens when they first launch, that is happening more and more, is that loyal customers get screwed and it becomes a speculator/broker sh'tstorm.

    This happens with any new highly desirable car (new SL/996 Turbo/etc) but if Porsche has changed their strategy to limit product of these high echelon models, their dealer network has to do something like Ferrari. (I can't believe I said that).

    I can't believe I am buying a Aston (a company I laughed at 5~ years ago) with the performance of a C2S at the price of a turbo.

    Happy motoring!

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Quote:
    Moogle said:if Porsche has changed their strategy to limit product of these high echelon models, their dealer network has to do something like Ferrari. (I can't believe I said that).


    Tom - I think Porsche has NOT decided to limit production of their high echelon models (like GT3 and RS). I think it only appears this way for the moment, since they have produced a relatively small number before re-tooling and producing a MKII with Direct Fuel Injection. They'll make plenty more of these facelifted GT3's (I think) and the speculators will be screwed if they're still holding inventory then...

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Grant, that leaves two scenarios.

    1. The new model comes out very soon, destroying the residuals of the early adopters. and the speculating begins anew with the start of manufacturing for the new model.

    2. The new model comes out with 2-3 year time gap, making everyone wait for new technology longer.


    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    I am certainly sympathetic to the angst over Porsche modern marketing strangulating the engineering and development of the Porsche lineup. BUT for those of us Porschephiles who long for the past, at least there's the aftermarket which is alive and well, including in the USA, to counterbalance perhaps some of the softening of the Porsche product. And one advantage of buying vintage pre-owned Porsche cars-versus Ferrari's new and used-a slight edge for reliability.

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Without a doubt one of the best analysis of Porsche corporate strategy I have read in years. I wish I wrote it.



    Guys, the truth is that Nick tried to order a CGT but wasn't given a build that's the reason why he is always bitter towards the P brand. Don't worry Nick, I think I know how you feel. It's hard to settle for second best (F430)

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Hey Turbo Al, did you buy your TTS cab from Pepe? You might have bought the one I ordered. Triple black with yellow stitching throughout.

    I agree that the vintage ones are amazing- so much more soul, and more so as time goes on. I am considering a 912 or something. Robert Redford in Spy Game? That with my AMV8 and my spycar collection is almost complete

    Best,

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Quote:
    ITALO said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Without a doubt one of the best analysis of Porsche corporate strategy I have read in years. I wish I wrote it.



    Guys, the truth is that Nick tried to order a CGT but wasn't given a build that's the reason why he is always bitter towards the P brand. Don't worry Nick, I think I know how you feel. It's hard to settle for second best (F430)



    You have no idea how close I came to buying a new blk on blk. The checkbook was out and pen in hand. The price was right but I could not pull the trigger because of too much black.

    Shortly thereafter, the person that bought the car lost control of it doing about 70-80mph and totalled it.

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    ITALO said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Without a doubt one of the best analysis of Porsche corporate strategy I have read in years. I wish I wrote it.



    Guys, the truth is that Nick tried to order a CGT but wasn't given a build that's the reason why he is always bitter towards the P brand. Don't worry Nick, I think I know how you feel. It's hard to settle for second best (F430)



    You have no idea how close I came to buying a new blk on blk. The checkbook was out and pen in hand. The price was right but I could not pull the trigger because of too much black.

    Shortly thereafter, the person that bought the car lost control of it doing about 70-80mph and totalled it.



    that's what I like, you admitted that you were interested. For you to be interested in a P-car you must have admired it to the fullest. I find it strange when you said you withdrew at the last minute, it's like picking up Jennifer Lopez, taking her home and when it comes the the real business pull out....ooh I forgot to wear my red pants... I don't understand you DUDE

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    Grant, that leaves two scenarios.

    1. The new model comes out very soon, destroying the residuals of the early adopters. and the speculating begins anew with the start of manufacturing for the new model.

    2. The new model comes out with 2-3 year time gap, making everyone wait for new technology longer.




    I think we'll see 997GT3 MKII in about a year (MY09).

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    What's wrong with black on black

    I too was VERY close to getting a black/black CGT, chose to put the money into a real estate project though. The car also sold very quickly when I backed out.

    Here's my 05 GT3


    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    The CGT looks best in Blk. However, a black interior with a black exterior in a convertible just doesn't do anything for me. BTW, I don't believe that is a stock GT3 tail. Why did you change it?


    Italo, if I am going to pay $400,000 for a car, I better love it. From the outset, I was hesitant about the car but its performance parameters blinded me. Thankfully, my head trumped my heart. Also, my friend Ben owned one and I drove his whenever I wanted to.

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Nick,
    That's what I like about you. You're known around this board for not liking porsches, but you don't hesitate to admit you almost bought one... Can imagine your emotions regardng "If I pay that amount of money, it better be perfect for me".

    Tom, it's been a long time since I saw that picture! I loved your car as being one of the best looking 996 GT3's I ever saw pictures of!
    -Joost-

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Quote:
    ITALO said:


    Guys, the truth is that Nick tried to order a CGT but wasn't given a build that's the reason why he is always bitter towards the P brand. Don't worry Nick, I think I know how you feel. It's hard to settle for second best (F430)



    Sorry and no offence but since when the Carrera GT is in the same class as the F430? It's like admitting that it would take a Porsche hypercar to compete with an entry-level Ferrari. Poor 911s..

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Quote:
    shin said:
    Quote:
    ITALO said:


    (Guys, the truth is that Nick tried to order a CGT but wasn't given a build that's the reason why he is always bitter towards the P brand. Don't worry Nick, I think I know how you feel. It's hard to settle for second best (F430)



    Sorry and no offence but since when the Carrera GT is in the same class as the F430? It's like admitting that it would take a Porsche hypercar to compete with an entry-level Ferrari. Poor 911s..



    (Guys, the truth is that Nick tried to order a CGT but wasn't given a build that's the reason why he is always bitter towards the P brand. Don't worry Nick, I think I know how you feel. It's hard to settle for second best (F430) )

    do you need a dicco to understand this

    Re: Next Porsche Supercar

    Two more:
    * LSDs for all "S" models, including 98x, at least as an option.
    * -20mm sport suspension available in North America

     
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