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Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Great to see P R&D finally awakening to develop a more competitive NBR time....they've only had 5+ yrs since 996GT2 to advance the time.... 
But 997GT2 still has turbo lag, Luddite gearbox, Prius Turbo exhaust note and dubious, poss primitive PASM/PSM vs public, imperfect roads (which often don't correlate well vs NBR)....
Suspect physical limits of any of these cars vastly exceed driving capabilities of 99% of rennteamers on a private track; and, on any public road (incl AB or any public twisties), most affluent, risk/reward-conscious drivers tend to opt for a large margin of error in their driving style
....vastly below "limits" of cars....would argue lims of most owners/drivers are more defined by individual risk/reward tolerances than physical/skill lims, i.e., would rather have the crash test dummies, AKA racecar/test car drivers/journalists probe lims of cars....Darwinian selection is healthy for humanity....
That said, have already told my dealers I want early copies of 997TT 2.0, Scud and SL63Blk in CY08.....will be great fun to determine which cars are truly interesting to drive for an amateur, risk-averse driver on public roads....and cars that disappoint will be quickly traded-in at likely trivial cost of 2-3K mi "test drive" (gotta love the cheap car prices/leases of the efficient US mkt
)....IMO, the most efficient/effective way for one to subjectively judge/compare these great cars.... 
But 997GT2 still has turbo lag, Luddite gearbox, Prius Turbo exhaust note and dubious, poss primitive PASM/PSM vs public, imperfect roads (which often don't correlate well vs NBR)....
Suspect physical limits of any of these cars vastly exceed driving capabilities of 99% of rennteamers on a private track; and, on any public road (incl AB or any public twisties), most affluent, risk/reward-conscious drivers tend to opt for a large margin of error in their driving style
....vastly below "limits" of cars....would argue lims of most owners/drivers are more defined by individual risk/reward tolerances than physical/skill lims, i.e., would rather have the crash test dummies, AKA racecar/test car drivers/journalists probe lims of cars....Darwinian selection is healthy for humanity.... That said, have already told my dealers I want early copies of 997TT 2.0, Scud and SL63Blk in CY08.....will be great fun to determine which cars are truly interesting to drive for an amateur, risk-averse driver on public roads....and cars that disappoint will be quickly traded-in at likely trivial cost of 2-3K mi "test drive" (gotta love the cheap car prices/leases of the efficient US mkt
)....IMO, the most efficient/effective way for one to subjectively judge/compare these great cars....
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
Just_me said:
Doettinger Höhe: 293kph... (quite fast for a car with just 530hp).
The results are VERY good. Basically, very similar to the numbers WR achieved in this car. Very interesting. Also, the track times don't seem to be the result of superior acceleration power but more of a highly efficient suspension and traction setup
Seems Porsche has done their homework much, much better than in other recent models. Congrats to them. That's exactly what sports car enthusiasts expec from them
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
Just_me said:
Doettinger Höhe: 293kph... (quite fast for a car with just 530hp).
The results are VERY good. Basically, very similar to the numbers WR achieved in this car. Very interesting. Also, the track times don't seem to be the result of superior acceleration power but more of a highly efficient suspension and traction setup
Seems Porsche has done their homework much, much better than in other recent models. Congrats to them. That's exactly what sports car enthusiasts expect from them
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
BTW, where are now all Horst von Saurma sceptics
Few weeks ago:"von Saurma do not know how to drive 997...","997 Turbo is too much for him..." etc.
So, what are your comments NOW
I was repeating like a Parrot that GT2 results in von Saurma hands will be truly amazing...
Fact is that too many cried and complained about SportAuto without proper knowledge of the facts. This Supertests is the best prove for how useful the Supertest actually is
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
RC said:
I would love to see how a 997 Turbo RUF 550 or another tuned but NOT suspension modded car performs on the Nordschleife. I suspect a time around 7:40 which would still show the huge advantage regarding the GT2 chassis.
You might not have to wait for long (as you know
)
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
KresoF1 said:Quote:
RC said:
7:33 and 1:10...nothing more to add, the king is back.
Apparently Porsche took the criticism regarding the GT3 and Turbo chassis very seriously. I suspect that the improvement(s), mainly in the front axle region, will make it to the GT3 and Turbo too, maybe with the facelift.
I would love to see how a 997 Turbo RUF 550 or another tuned but NOT suspension modded car performs on the Nordschleife. I suspect a time around 7:40 which would still show the huge advantage regarding the GT2 chassis.
Christian,
PTM is 997 Turbo problem, not chassis(PASM). Look at wet handling numbers... GT2 is way faster with the same Cup tires...
PASM also seems to be a problem in the 997TT. Just look at the SportAuto HHR results of the 997TT Cab (which was .5s faster or so than the coupe... with same PTM setup but 70kg more)
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Now, you'll know the 0-300 time will be slower than 34 sec.
That we do know for some days now... RC did a real life test vs. a 550hp RUF car which confirmed a 32-34s figure for the 997GT2
(the GT2 was on par with the 550hp RUF up to about 300kph).
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Jim,
He was probably reading my Auto Zeitung GT2 test report were AZ test stuff claimed that there is still small turbo lag...
BUT, according to my Motorpresse(company that publish AMS and Sport Auto) friend lag is really pretty small and we can live with it!
BTW, CL63AMG Ring time is 8.14min so, car prefered by WBH(aka VKSF) as a true sportscar is nothing more then Exxon tanker with nice straight line speed...
He was probably reading my Auto Zeitung GT2 test report were AZ test stuff claimed that there is still small turbo lag...
BUT, according to my Motorpresse(company that publish AMS and Sport Auto) friend lag is really pretty small and we can live with it!
BTW, CL63AMG Ring time is 8.14min so, car prefered by WBH(aka VKSF) as a true sportscar is nothing more then Exxon tanker with nice straight line speed...
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Andrej,
I suspected that sceptics like the one above will occur...
NO Men in Black influence Gents! GT2 is simply that fast as you will see very soon since different example of GT2 achived some excellent time around Oschersleben track(soon in Auto Bild Sportscar edition)...
Of course we knew it was going to happen. I just find it funny that some people won't budge no matter what. I could care less, frankly, as my buying target is the 997 Turbo, but the pigheadedness of some people never ceases to amaze me.
My buying target list now includes the GT2
As RC stated above: "the king is back"
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Andrej,
I suspected that sceptics like the one above will occur...
NO Men in Black influence Gents! GT2 is simply that fast as you will see very soon since different example of GT2 achived some excellent time around Oschersleben track(soon in Auto Bild Sportscar edition)...
Of course we knew it was going to happen. I just find it funny that some people won't budge no matter what. I could care less, frankly, as my buying target is the 997 Turbo, but the pigheadedness of some people never ceases to amaze me.
My buying target list now includes the GT2
As RC stated above: "the king is back"
Markus,
Glad to hear that!
GT2 is really that good. 0-300km/h for that Guards Red example is 33.5s... I know factory time is 33s but, as you will see in forthcomig issue of Auto Bild Sportscars edition even 32.6s in possible...
Also few remarks regarding weight-all current press GT2 are loaded with options-weight is 1480-1498kg... It is nice to know that GT2 with full options is as fast as claimed...
Looking forward to see numbers for NO options example(cca 1445kg)...
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
KresoF1 said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Andrej,
I suspected that sceptics like the one above will occur...
NO Men in Black influence Gents! GT2 is simply that fast as you will see very soon since different example of GT2 achived some excellent time around Oschersleben track(soon in Auto Bild Sportscar edition)...
Of course we knew it was going to happen. I just find it funny that some people won't budge no matter what. I could care less, frankly, as my buying target is the 997 Turbo, but the pigheadedness of some people never ceases to amaze me.
My buying target list now includes the GT2
As RC stated above: "the king is back"
as you will see in forthcomig issue of Auto Bild Sportscars edition even 32.6s in possible...
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Jim,
He was probably reading my Auto Zeitung GT2 test report were AZ test stuff claimed that there is still small turbo lag...
BUT, according to my Motorpresse(company that publish AMS and Sport Auto) friend lag is really pretty small and we can live with it!
BTW, CL63AMG Ring time is 8.14min so, car prefered by WBH(aka VKSF) as a true sportscar is nothing more then Exxon tanker with nice straight line speed...
Kreso, The only thing quicker than a CL63 in the US is the depreciation of a CL63. Nothing else can catch it!
And For the GT2, a small amount of lag would mean absolutley nothing. Its scary fast and really well developed. And when it comes to "speed feel" no other car maker can match Porsches recipe.
FWIW.. Corvette is "partially" revealing the new 650hp ZR1 at Laguna Seca Raceway this weekend. I believe they plan to do speed laps as a warm up for fans at the ALMS race. Also, the new ZR1's get leather interiors from Germany to match their Porsche sourced tire inflator kits.
Maybe Porsche would like to source some motors for the Cayenne GTS?
Thanks for all the info on the GT2. They are apparently already all pre sold in the US.
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Jim,
He was probably reading my Auto Zeitung GT2 test report were AZ test stuff claimed that there is still small turbo lag...
BUT, according to my Motorpresse(company that publish AMS and Sport Auto) friend lag is really pretty small and we can live with it!
BTW, CL63AMG Ring time is 8.14min so, car prefered by WBH(aka VKSF) as a true sportscar is nothing more then Exxon tanker with nice straight line speed...
Kreso, The only thing quicker than a CL63 in the US is the depreciation of a CL63. Nothing else can catch it!
And For the GT2, a small amount of lag would mean absolutley nothing. Its scary fast and really well developed. And when it comes to "speed feel" no other car maker can match Porsches recipe.
FWIW.. Corvette is "partially" revealing the new 650hp ZR1 at Laguna Seca Raceway this weekend. I believe they plan to do speed laps as a warm up for fans at the ALMS race. Also, the new ZR1's get leather interiors from Germany to match their Porsche sourced tire inflator kits.
Thanks for all the info on the GT2. They are apparently already all pre sold in the US.
Regarding turbo lag I would even argue that a certain turbo lag adds to the pleasure of driving the car... You can really get used to driving turbo cars
Oct 20, 2007 11:38:50 AM
- Porsche-Jeck
- Rennteam Master
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- Reply to: WBH
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
WBH said:
poss primitive PASM/PSM vs public, imperfect roads (which often don't correlate well vs NBR)....
Darwinian selection is healthy for humanity....
interesting to drive for an amateur, risk-averse driver on public roads....
What are you talking about, WBH ? Nordschleife with all it's bumps, patches of various surfaces, cracks in the tarmac etc. is definitely more "imperfect" than a lot of public roads - that's why they test production cars there, not racecars.
Not sure whether you're equation of risk-averse = healthy for humanity (in the Darwinian sense) is correct: just read a very interesting scientfifc article on the subject. Conclusion of the scientists: people who avoid all risks, are less happy than others and may even "risk"
their mental health (this is not aimed at you personally, but think about it).
Don't fear risks, ride them
To avoid any misunderstandings: I'm not an advocat of reckless driving on public roads (far from it), but driving sportscars with the power of a GT2 or Scud implies a risk per se (even with dozens of airbags and electronic nannies).
So if you're that risk-averse why are you buying these toys anyway ? Just get yourself a "normal" car.
Having said that I agree with your statement, that these cars exceed the capabilities of the vast majority of their buyers (that includes me for sure). But in one case they exceed the driving skills by 10%, in other cases 50%
@ Fritz & Turbo-Al: great posts
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
Mikla said:
RC, can you please ellaborate on the changes of the chasis?
Thanks
For the first time, the 911 GT2 has a toe that can be fine-tuned. This is done through adjustment plates on the bottom
wishbone and results in high steering precision and a stable straight run.
The front axle wheel carrier was redeveloped for the new 911 GT2 in order to improve driving stability.
The new position of the control points for wishbones and the corresponding kinematic changes in spring deflection made it possible to improve the steering and cornering behaviour. The advantages are high straight run and track stability, particularly at high speeds and neutral cornering behaviour.
According to the driver of the 997 GT2 we "met", the new 997 GT2 has a very neutral chassis setup, there is no understeer at all and oversteer is much easier controllable than in previous models.
I was very surprised to see the lack of a PSM Off button inside the 997 GT2. Porsche did a very clever thing, they named the same button SC TC Off instead of PSM Off. It is basically the same thing but the 997 GT2 definetely has PSM, even if Porsche doesn't like to call it this way.
On the GT2 however, turning PSM off (SC and TC Off position) shuts off the PSM completely, it does NOT come on again during braking for example (997 Turbo, 997 Carrera).
The 997 GT2 is basically a 997 Turbo with 997 GT3 chassis.
Basically. The engine hasn't been modified much, only the VTG chargers have been modded, the new expansion intake system is also new (basically allowing to keep up with emissions laws/regulations, to keep fuel consumption as low as possible, not necessarily because of the power gain).
Engine is the same, the GT2 has, to my knowledge, the same engine parts like the 997 Turbo, no different conrods, etc.
There is only one "bad" thing about the new 997 Turbo:
the VTG chargers and the very high boost pressure. There is no way to actually increase power on this baby without the need of substantial engine/turbo charger mods. The boost pressure is already very high at 1.4 bar, the current VTG chargers don't really "support" any more pressure.
Meaning: for some people, a tuned 997 Turbo may be the better and cheaper solution, especially for street driving.
Otherwise, the new 997 GT2 is the hell of a performance machine and a lot of fun.Just can't wait to testdrive it, hopefully before the real snow comes.
Sorry, but HvS wrote "leichte Tendenz zum Untersteuern...", S. 24
What i always said: A hell of a car, but noone believed me 
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Re the 997GT2's 0-300kph. If it turns out ~32s I consider that pretty disappointing. With 530PS and that impressive torque curve surely it should be coming closer to the RS Tuning 542PS 996GT2 tested by Sport Auto at ~28.5s ?
Is the downforce slowing it down somewhat
Is the downforce slowing it down somewhat
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
TB993tt said:
Re the 997GT2's 0-300kph. If it turns out ~32s I consider that pretty disappointing. With 530PS and that impressive torque curve surely it should be coming closer to the RS Tuning 542PS 996GT2 tested by Sport Auto at ~28.5s ?
Is the downforce slowing it down somewhat
TB, the question is whether that car really had just 542 bhp. Seeing how the 550 bhp Turbos with somewhat better aerodynamics (drag-wise) are only able to reach 32-34 seconds on average, I don't find this time disappointing. The car is definitely on-par performance-wise with the 599 GTB, the LP640 and the SLR. No small feat IMO.
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Few interesting comments from the article:
-GT2 is offering the best high speed straight line stability of all current 997 series models. Excellent aerodynamics is the key here with good downforce
-traction is amazing for very powerfull rear engine car. In fact since GT2 is almost 2s faster on wet handling track then 997 Turbo we can get only one conclusion-PTM AWD system is flawed. On wet handling track good traction is more important then PASM setup so, it is really interesting that 997 GT2 is that much faster on the same tires(Cups) then 997 Turbo.
Techart Gt Street Supertest clearly show that PTM system is not SOTA...
-GT2 is offering the best high speed straight line stability of all current 997 series models. Excellent aerodynamics is the key here with good downforce
-traction is amazing for very powerfull rear engine car. In fact since GT2 is almost 2s faster on wet handling track then 997 Turbo we can get only one conclusion-PTM AWD system is flawed. On wet handling track good traction is more important then PASM setup so, it is really interesting that 997 GT2 is that much faster on the same tires(Cups) then 997 Turbo.
Techart Gt Street Supertest clearly show that PTM system is not SOTA...
Oct 20, 2007 1:57:23 PM
- Turbo4ever
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Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Few interesting comments from the article:
-GT2 is offering the best high speed straight line stability of all current 997 series models. Excellent aerodynamics is the key here with good downforce
-traction is amazing for very powerfull rear engine car. In fact since GT2 is almost 2s faster on wet handling track then 997 Turbo we can get only one conclusion-PTM AWD system is flawed. On wet handling track good traction is more important then PASM setup so, it is really interesting that 997 GT2 is that much faster on the same tires(Cups) then 997 Turbo.
Techart Gt Street Supertest clearly show that PTM system is not SOTA...
I pretty sure Porsche will sort out the PTM AWD system for the facelifed version.
Isn't that just a software program?
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
eclou said:
If the Gt2 uses different front wheel carriers and adjustable camber arms, it should a relatively cheap upgrade to the existing 997tt's so long as the front axle length is the same
GT2's front wheel carrier is not compatible with 4WD, so you can forget that idea.
Oct 20, 2007 6:03:50 PM
- turbosteff
- Co-Pilot
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Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:Hi Kreso !
KresoF1 said:
BTW, where are now all Horst von Saurma sceptics
Few weeks ago:"von Saurma do not know how to drive 997...","997 Turbo is too much for him..." etc.
So, what are your comments NOW
I was repeating like a Parrot that GT2 results in von Saurma hands will be truly amazing...
It makes no sense to start the old discussion again. I think all is posted. But I have only one question and I try to ask this as neutral as possible not to generate a bad mood in this thread:
How can it be that HvS achieved after doing 2 laps (according to supertests policy one intro lap and one fast lap) nearly the same lap time as WR (who is imho one of the fastest driver on the planet) who did hundreds of laps with the GT2?
If the lap times of HvS would have been between 7,35 and 7,38 for the GT2 that would sound realistic to me and I would not criticize the supertest anymore.
Oct 20, 2007 6:10:34 PM
- KresoF1
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Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
turbosteff said:Quote:Hi Kreso !
KresoF1 said:
BTW, where are now all Horst von Saurma sceptics
Few weeks ago:"von Saurma do not know how to drive 997...","997 Turbo is too much for him..." etc.
So, what are your comments NOW
I was repeating like a Parrot that GT2 results in von Saurma hands will be truly amazing...
It makes no sense to start the old discussion again. I think all is posted. But I have only one question and I try to ask this as neutral as possible not to generate a bad mood in this thread:
How can it be that HvS achieved after doing 2 laps (according to supertests policy one intro lap and one fast lap) nearly the same lap time as WR (who is imho one of the fastest driver on the planet) who did hundreds of laps with the GT2?
If the lap times of HvS would have been between 7,35 and 7,38 for the GT2 that would sound realistic to me and I would not criticize the supertest anymore.
Here is a potential answer-new 997 GT2 is much easier car to drive on the limit then 997 Turbo(manual with optional LSD). Apparently GT2 offeres better traction(dry track) and high speed stability on straight line and in corners then 997 Turbo. This is the reason IMO. I spoke about it with my friend who works for Motorpresse(company that publishe AMS and Sport Auto).
One 997 Turbo TIP(and TIP version can not have optional LSD) owner said to me that car is pain in the ass for track driving on the limit or near it. Go figure...
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
I know this is just magazine reviewing, but to make this conclusion in a truly valid manner, isn't it necessary to hold the other variables exactly the same? Ride height, weight of car, power, just to think of 3 critical differences between the Turbo and the GT2? Shouldn't height of the car's center of gravity be a critical factor in handling in the dry, AND wet?
In other words, to isolate PTM as the "flaw," don't you need to test the Turbo with lower height, more power (may not be a factor, but one never knows until it's done), etc.?
KresoF1, thanks again. You have the speediest and most interesting info.
In other words, to isolate PTM as the "flaw," don't you need to test the Turbo with lower height, more power (may not be a factor, but one never knows until it's done), etc.?
KresoF1, thanks again. You have the speediest and most interesting info.
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Few interesting comments from the article:
-traction is amazing for very powerfull rear engine car. In fact since GT2 is almost 2s faster on wet handling track then 997 Turbo we can get only one conclusion-PTM AWD system is flawed. On wet handling track good traction is more important then PASM setup so, it is really interesting that 997 GT2 is that much faster on the same tires(Cups) then 997 Turbo.
....
Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
Quote:
KresoF1 said:Quote:
turbosteff said:Quote:Hi Kreso !
KresoF1 said:
BTW, where are now all Horst von Saurma sceptics
Few weeks ago:"von Saurma do not know how to drive 997...","997 Turbo is too much for him..." etc.
So, what are your comments NOW
I was repeating like a Parrot that GT2 results in von Saurma hands will be truly amazing...
It makes no sense to start the old discussion again. I think all is posted. But I have only one question and I try to ask this as neutral as possible not to generate a bad mood in this thread:
How can it be that HvS achieved after doing 2 laps (according to supertests policy one intro lap and one fast lap) nearly the same lap time as WR (who is imho one of the fastest driver on the planet) who did hundreds of laps with the GT2?
If the lap times of HvS would have been between 7,35 and 7,38 for the GT2 that would sound realistic to me and I would not criticize the supertest anymore.
Here is a potential answer-new 997 GT2 is much easier car to drive on the limit then 997 Turbo(manual with optional LSD). Apparently GT2 offeres better traction(dry track) and high speed stability on straight line and in corners then 997 Turbo. This is the reason IMO. I spoke about it with my friend who works for Motorpresse(company that publishe AMS and Sport Auto).
One 997 Turbo TIP(and TIP version can not have optional LSD) owner said to me that car is pain in the ass for track driving on the limit or near it. Go figure...
You beat me to it, I think it is the only answer. it looks like HVS was more confortable driving the GT2 near its limits than the TT. There is no other explanation for that huge difference in time.
Oct 20, 2007 7:26:33 PM
- fritz
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Re: 997 GT2 Sport Auto Supertest...
#
Two observations:
1) I may be wrong, but the fact that it might be Supertest policy to do a warm-up lap and then the decisive measured lap does not exclude the possibility that HvS also does practice laps with the test cars to familiarize himself with them before these 2 laps.
2) Having had the opportunity see top class racing drivers drive a new car for the first time or drive at a new circuit for the first time I can assure you that someone like WR would not need hundreds of laps in a car to get a best lap time out of it.
Despite some of the posts we have read here recently expressing doubt about HvS's ability, I suspect that he also has the talent and experience to get the best out of a car with very little seat time.
I don't think anyone here doubts that he already knows the 'Ring.
Quote:
turbosteff said:
How can it be that HvS achieved after doing 2 laps (according to supertests policy one intro lap and one fast lap) nearly the same lap time as WR (who is imho one of the fastest driver on the planet) who did hundreds of laps with the GT2?
Two observations:
1) I may be wrong, but the fact that it might be Supertest policy to do a warm-up lap and then the decisive measured lap does not exclude the possibility that HvS also does practice laps with the test cars to familiarize himself with them before these 2 laps.
2) Having had the opportunity see top class racing drivers drive a new car for the first time or drive at a new circuit for the first time I can assure you that someone like WR would not need hundreds of laps in a car to get a best lap time out of it.
Despite some of the posts we have read here recently expressing doubt about HvS's ability, I suspect that he also has the talent and experience to get the best out of a car with very little seat time.
I don't think anyone here doubts that he already knows the 'Ring.
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