Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Too much BHP?! - Page1

Oct 18, 2007 1:31:25 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005

Too much BHP?!

Unholy words I know, but I am curious as to what you guys think is too much power for public roads (with road tyres).

The GT2 has 530bhp and some HUGE semi-slick rear tyres to transfer its power to the road. I know there is a point when traction control lights will be all you will ever see if you have more power than you can use.

Obviously on a track different rules apply. But on the road you have varying surfaces and varying weather conditions.

This question has just reminded me of the Topgear test of a 612bhp Merc Vs a Tug of war team...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpCyIjCEq_Y

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Oct 18, 2007 1:38:56 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
Alex (UK) said:
Unholy words I know, but I am curious as to what you guys think is too much power for public roads (with road tyres).

The GT2 has 530bhp and some HUGE semi-slick rear tyres to transfer its power to the road. I know there is a point when traction control lights will be all you will ever see if you have more power than you can use.

Obviously on a track different rules apply. But on the road you have varying surfaces and varying weather conditions.

This question has just reminded me of the Topgear test of a 612bhp Merc Vs a Tug of war team...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpCyIjCEq_Y

I voted for the last option

. Admittedly, the UK might be different with its roads infested by speed cameras.

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Oct 18, 2007 1:49:17 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Too much BHP?!

Me too BUT it all depends on how all that power is put down on the road.

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Oct 18, 2007 1:58:54 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Me too BUT it all depends on how all that power is put down on the road.

Exactly. The Rt12 handles its 700 bhp just fine according to RC and MKSGR.

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Oct 18, 2007 2:05:08 PM

saxguy: Junior; Loc: NJ; Posts: 127, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2007; Reply to: Crash

Re: Too much BHP?!

The Veyron had some major issues with traction in its infancy. I think it stands to reason that any amount of horsepower is fine so long as the total engineering of the car backs it up. Look at the Shelby Cobra replicas - huge amounts of power but damn scary to drive.

BTW, check out the Top Gear episode where James May drives the Veyron to around 250 MPH. Interesting to hear that inside, the car was completely stable and the only time he experienced any vibration was when he initially hit the brakes - and even then it was minor, at best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R2tbFBGd1M

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Oct 18, 2007 2:17:21 PM

x838nwy: Junior; Loc: umm.....; Posts: 71, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 13, 2007; Reply to: saxguy

Re: Too much BHP?!

Imo, around about 200-300hp per wheel is probably the limit at the moment. Obviously this means you can put more down with awd, but then it gets silly if you need crazy wide tyres up front.

If the engineering matches the power, the limiting factor are the tyres and that technology is improving all the time.

Which leaves the roads. In the real world, would you be able to tell the difference between say a car with 500 and another with 550whp? probably not..

But we all know the latter sounds better down at the pub...

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Oct 18, 2007 3:04:01 PM

V10_BOOST: Newbie; Loc: Qatar; Posts: 12, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 21, 2006; Reply to: saxguy

Re: Too much BHP?!

in my country 450bhp will be more than enough for a sports car i.e 997 turbo...due to the bumpy roads and almost the all the major roads and highways are under construction but if you were talking about a place in europe i must choose the last option;)

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Oct 18, 2007 3:08:00 PM

Turbo4ever: Senior; Loc: HK , Hong Kong; Posts: 723, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 13, 2007; Reply to: x838nwy

Re: Too much BHP?!

400-500hp for streets

can be more for track

also depends on the weight and torque is more important for street

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Oct 18, 2007 5:19:28 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Too much BHP?!

My 996TSCab-GT700 (tuned to 650+HP on pump, 700 on race gas) is a blast to drive on the street and very civilized in routine traffic conditions-once I got the hang of the clutch.

I find that if I keep the car upshifted by a gear to slightly lower the revs, it isn't twitchy with a little turbo lag to allow the car to drive like the other vehicles when it's stop-and-go, then if I want to really open her up, say to pass someone or just launch it, the car takes off like a rocket-it's better than going to the amusement park.

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Oct 18, 2007 6:00:36 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Too much BHP?!

I think 480 is the upper limit for public roads. Okay..., maybe an even 500 for slightly more titilating bragging rights.

Why? Because a few weeks after getting it (after trading in my 997S) I stupidly spun out my TT when driving "frisky." FREEKED me out! First time ANY car got away from me without my knowing it was likely gonna happen; was a total surprise. I attribute it to the almost excessive and near-the-limit HP/Tq.

Maybe this isn't logical but nevertheless I'm thinking 480 is plenty.

One thing's for sure, unlike my 997S, because of the too-much-hp question I will NEVER let anybody borrow my TT unless I'm in the passenger's seat.

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Oct 18, 2007 6:04:49 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
MMD said:
Why? Because a few weeks after getting it (after trading in my 997S) I stupidly spun out my TT when driving "frisky." FREEKED me out! First time ANY car got away from me without my knowing it was likely gonna happen; was a total surprise. I attribute it to the almost excessive and near-the-limit HP/Tq.

Can I ask what you did to trigger a spin? Just so I know not to repeat when I get mine (coming from a C2S also)...

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Oct 18, 2007 6:20:30 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
Alex (UK) said:
Quote:
MMD said:
Why? Because a few weeks after getting it (after trading in my 997S) I stupidly spun out my TT when driving "frisky." FREEKED me out! First time ANY car got away from me without my knowing it was likely gonna happen; was a total surprise. I attribute it to the almost excessive and near-the-limit HP/Tq.

Can I ask what you did to trigger a spin? Just so I know not to repeat when I get mine (coming from a C2S also)...

Yes. Was my usual route thru some twisties ("safe" because of high visibility). I just pushed the thing and lost it. My _theory_ is the road was damp from dew (zero rain) because of early morning.

I gave it alot of throttle and guess the the extra HP just wouldn't stick to the road. Did the "same" thing in my 997S for years and never had a problem. Matter of fact I don't remember the PSM light ever coming on in the 997S!

Anyway it was stupid and there may be other factors involved but I, maybe illogically, attribute it to the big difference in HP. Whatever it is I'm actually slightly afraid of my TT; never felt that way with my 997S.

Yeah yeah..., I gotta get some seat time on a track..., I'll will get to it ASAP... . Thanks.

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Oct 18, 2007 7:26:47 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: MMD

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
Alex (UK) said:
Quote:
MMD said:
Why? Because a few weeks after getting it (after trading in my 997S) I stupidly spun out my TT when driving "frisky." FREEKED me out! First time ANY car got away from me without my knowing it was likely gonna happen; was a total surprise. I attribute it to the almost excessive and near-the-limit HP/Tq.

Can I ask what you did to trigger a spin? Just so I know not to repeat when I get mine (coming from a C2S also)...

Yes. Was my usual route thru some twisties ("safe" because of high visibility). I just pushed the thing and lost it. My _theory_ is the road was damp from dew (zero rain) because of early morning.

I gave it alot of throttle and guess the the extra HP just wouldn't stick to the road. Did the "same" thing in my 997S for years and never had a problem. Matter of fact I don't remember the PSM light ever coming on in the 997S!

Anyway it was stupid and there may be other factors involved but I, maybe illogically, attribute it to the big difference in HP. Whatever it is I'm actually slightly afraid of my TT; never felt that way with my 997S.

Yeah yeah..., I gotta get some seat time on a track..., I'll will get to it ASAP... . Thanks.

MMD, perhaps you experienced the faulty PTM/suspension setup, where the car instantly triggers extreme oversteer and you leave the road butt-forward. Should be correctable with new PTM programming and better suspension settings.

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Oct 18, 2007 8:34:43 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
Crash said:

MMD, perhaps you experienced the faulty PTM/suspension setup, where the car instantly triggers extreme oversteer and you leave the road butt-forward. Should be correctable with new PTM programming and better suspension settings.

Wow. Crash, I would be grateful if you could point me in the right direction to learn more about this issue. Just from what you say "instantly triggered oversteer" sounds applicable.

What happened was this (as best as I can remember) got into the turn the rear suddenly just swung out, I corrected, it swung out again to the other side, I corrected..., the side-to-side swings got smaller and smaller and I finally was driving straight. BTW, I had zero feeling that the PSM was helping me (I'm somewhat familiar with that intervention but could be wrong.)

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Oct 18, 2007 9:11:18 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: MMD

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
Crash said:

MMD, perhaps you experienced the faulty PTM/suspension setup, where the car instantly triggers extreme oversteer and you leave the road butt-forward. Should be correctable with new PTM programming and better suspension settings.

Wow. Crash, I would be grateful if you could point me in the right direction to learn more about this issue. Just from what you say "instantly triggered oversteer" sounds applicable.

What happened was this (as best as I can remember) got into the turn the rear suddenly just swung out, I corrected, it swung out again to the other side, I corrected..., the side-to-side swings got smaller and smaller and I finally was driving straight. BTW, I had zero feeling that the PSM was helping me (I'm somewhat familiar with that intervention but could be wrong.)

It seems you missed the threads during which this was discussed, but it has been pointed out by several people, including RC and the chief editor of Sport Auto, that the car is notoriously difficult to handle at the limit and will switch from understeer to extreme oversteer with little to no warning. This has also been cited as the reason for its poor NBR time. However, it seems that a certain suspension alignment alleviates this problem. Gene (eclou) would be the person to contact to tell you more about aligning the suspension.

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Oct 19, 2007 3:05:54 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
Crash said:
MMD, perhaps you experienced the faulty PTM/suspension setup, where the car instantly triggers extreme oversteer and you leave the road butt-forward. Should be correctable with new PTM programming and better suspension settings.

Surely if the Turbo has a dangerous flaw like snap-oversteer which can be invoked on public roads (ie. lower speeds than on a track) then this should be a recall fix and not just something to be addressed in a facelift or on the 998...

I thought that was the point of transitioning to an electronic system - easily updatable

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Oct 19, 2007 3:42:34 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Too much BHP?!

Hey MMD - I'm curious, does your Turbo have LSD option?

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Oct 19, 2007 5:46:05 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
Alex (UK) said:
Hey MMD - I'm curious, does your Turbo have LSD option?

Yes. Sorry I didn't mention it.

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Oct 19, 2007 5:53:34 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: MMD

Re: Too much BHP?!

MMD, it seems that the MY2008 Turbo has had the setup corrected somewhat. I'm pretty sure that Porsche will just sweep this quietly under the carpet and have all cars updated at the next service interval.

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Oct 19, 2007 6:06:08 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
Crash said:
MMD, it seems that the MY2008 Turbo has had the setup corrected somewhat. I'm pretty sure that Porsche will just sweep this quietly under the carpet and have all cars updated at the next service interval.

I really really really hope you are right

Be interested to know what time a MY08 Turbo gets around the NBR. Shame I am not a good enough driver to find out

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Oct 19, 2007 7:04:53 PM

chrisNY: Co-Pilot; Loc: Long Island; Posts: 196, Gallery; Registered on: May 24, 2006; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Too much BHP?!

Well, if you believe what Ferrari is saying they will not be looking into additional HP for their cars. Instead, they will be focusing on making their cars smaller, lighter, and more efficient using pretty much the same amount of HP they have now. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

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Oct 19, 2007 7:14:40 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: chrisNY

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
chrisNY said:
Well, if you believe what Ferrari is saying they will not be looking into additional HP for their cars. Instead, they will be focusing on making their cars smaller, lighter, and more efficient using pretty much the same amount of HP they have now. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Well, sure! With 0-300 km/h times dropping under 40 seconds and top speeds now reaching or exceeding 320 km/h, I seriously doubt that the cars need more power, especially if they lose a few hundred kilos of weight.

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Oct 19, 2007 7:17:17 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Too much BHP?!

Surely less weight means less interior creature comforts though too...

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Oct 19, 2007 7:20:22 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
Alex (UK) said:
Surely less weight means less interior creature comforts though too...

Maybe... Maybe not. Simply removing the power seats and replacing them with CF buckets will save loads of weight. Then you have the etire body of the car, which can be tinkered with in the way of lighter materials and such. Lighter rims and ceramic brakes would contribute a lot as well, not to mention making the cars smaller, which also means lighter.

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Oct 19, 2007 7:50:36 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: chrisNY

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
chrisNY said:
Well, if you believe what Ferrari is saying they will not be looking into additional HP for their cars. Instead, they will be focusing on making their cars smaller, lighter, and more efficient using pretty much the same amount of HP they have now. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Considering the differences between the claimed and real weights of Ferrari's current models they still need to catch the cat first, so it is still too early to discuss different ways of skinning it.

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Oct 19, 2007 10:23:34 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
Alex (UK) said:
Quote:
Crash said:
MMD, perhaps you experienced the faulty PTM/suspension setup, where the car instantly triggers extreme oversteer and you leave the road butt-forward. Should be correctable with new PTM programming and better suspension settings.

Surely if the Turbo has a dangerous flaw like snap-oversteer which can be invoked on public roads (ie. lower speeds than on a track) then this should be a recall fix and not just something to be addressed in a facelift or on the 998...

I thought that was the point of transitioning to an electronic system - easily updatable

Any car can be made to oversteer if not properly driven, even a front over-weighted MB barge. For most drivers of these cars on the street, that phenomenon won't happen or if it occurs (when the car is driven at its limit) on a public road, the driver will likely be cited for driving recklessly anyhow so no recall would be rational. And I doubt that the 997TT's snap-oversteer tendency at the limit will trigger a litigation issue as was the case in the 1980's with the RWD air-cooled turbo's.

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Oct 19, 2007 11:20:17 PM

chrisNY: Co-Pilot; Loc: Long Island; Posts: 196, Gallery; Registered on: May 24, 2006; Reply to: fritz

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
chrisNY said:
Well, if you believe what Ferrari is saying they will not be looking into additional HP for their cars. Instead, they will be focusing on making their cars smaller, lighter, and more efficient using pretty much the same amount of HP they have now. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Considering the differences between the claimed and real weights of Ferrari's current models they still need to catch the cat first, so it is still too early to discuss different ways of skinning it.

Hey, I didn't say it - they did. I'm just telling you what I read and where their interests are moving forward.

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Oct 21, 2007 10:39:54 AM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: chrisNY

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
chrisNY said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
chrisNY said:
Well, if you believe what Ferrari is saying they will not be looking into additional HP for their cars. Instead, they will be focusing on making their cars smaller, lighter, and more efficient using pretty much the same amount of HP they have now. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Considering the differences between the claimed and real weights of Ferrari's current models they still need to catch the cat first, so it is still too early to discuss different ways of skinning it.

Hey, I didn't say it - they did. I'm just telling you what I read and where their interests are moving forward.

Don't panic! Any criticism implied in my post was aimed at Ferrari, not you.

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Oct 21, 2007 8:23:20 PM

andrew34: Newbie; Loc: London UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: May 29, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
Crash said:

MMD, perhaps you experienced the faulty PTM/suspension
setup, where the car instantly triggers extreme oversteer and you leave the road butt-forward. Should be correctable with new PTM programming and better suspension settings.

Wow. Crash, I would be grateful if you could point me in the right direction to learn more about this issue. Just from what you say "instantly triggered oversteer" sounds applicable.

What happened was this (as best as I can remember) got into the turn the rear suddenly just swung out, I corrected, it swung out again to the other side, I corrected..., the side-to-side swings got smaller and smaller and I finally was driving straight. BTW, I had zero feeling that the PSM was helping me (I'm somewhat familiar with that intervention but could be wrong.)

Experienced exactly the same at Donnington Park track last week. Coming out of the chicane and floored it. It was the early morning and the track was still damp, the back end snapped round and the same fish tailing happened like you describe.
I don't think there is much wrong with the set up, but put it down to the surface dampness. However, I'm interested if you have investigated further whether the suspension setup needs adjustment as is being suggested here.

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Oct 22, 2007 3:14:53 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: andrew34

Re: Too much BHP?!

Quote:
andrew34 said:

Experienced exactly the same at Donnington Park track last week. Coming out of the chicane and floored it. It was the early morning and the track was still damp, the back end snapped round and the same fish tailing happened like you describe.
I don't think there is much wrong with the set up, but put it down to the surface dampness. However, I'm interested if you have investigated further whether the suspension setup needs adjustment as is being suggested here.

WOW.

I've gone nuts trying to remember if the PSM light came on for me when this happened with my car. I've concluded that it stayed dark because I "know" I would have noticed it if it did come on. I also didn't feel it kick in either.

In retrospect (and from my amateur estimation) the damn thing _should_ have intervened because the upset wasn't a big deal occurring at high speeds.

Did you notice the PSM light go on when this happened to you?

If it didn't should it have?

BTW, I _was_ in "sport" mode.

I didn't do anything to check the suspension setup yet. Car just sits in garage, I've been too busy.

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