Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S? - Page1

Jun 23, 2004 6:44:56 PM

Captain Tal: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 13, Gallery; Registered on: May 30, 2004

Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

I need your advice. I have been quietly luking here for a couple of months. Now, I am days away from pulling the trigger on my first Porsche! I am soo excited I can hardly stand it! However, I am in a dilema.

I am not sure which I should buy; an 02-03 C4S or a 00-01 TT? I know there are advantages to each decision so I thought I would get your feedback.

This car will be a daily driver (though not too much because I work out of my home).

What are your thoughts? I have not driven a TT, I am afraid if I do, I won't like the C4S.

Your help is appreciated.

TL

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Jun 23, 2004 7:16:01 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: Captain Tal

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

Hands down TT is the way to go. Even though the C4 S is a bad ass car but performance wise and probably resale wise too (as a Porsche owner you should never think about resale value

) nothing will match TT's agility and speed.

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Jun 23, 2004 7:19:19 PM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

price/mileage on either?

if the TT is below 95 go for it.

i would go with the TT due to the ease of audio upgradability, as well as the 'top' status.

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Jun 23, 2004 7:27:26 PM

Captain Tal: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 13, Gallery; Registered on: May 30, 2004; Reply to: Moogle

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

FYI - I have found 03 C4S's for $70-$77 and 01 TT's for $85-89

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Jun 23, 2004 8:22:15 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59602, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Captain Tal

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

Well, the C4S is a different beast than the TT.
And don't forget that the 997 has arrived, the 996 Turbo is still THE Turbo and might be more special on a longterm run.

You might also want to go for the new 997 S, wait until you see it in person. It is almost as wide as a C4S in the rear and it looks very very nice. But it is your choice and it might be difficult to get a 997 any time soon after the introduction, especially in the first model year.

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Jun 23, 2004 8:24:42 PM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

RC, why is the 996 turbo THE turbo?

will it no longer be THE turbo when the 997 turbo comes out?

how about the 996 Turbo S Cab...

if i'm not wrong, this is the first Turbo S Cab ever?

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Jun 23, 2004 8:36:02 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59602, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Moogle

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

Quote:
Moogle said:
RC, why is the 996 turbo THE turbo?

Because "THE" Turbo, no matter how old, was and is always the Porsche top of the line and people appreciate it.
The GT2, GT3, GT1, etc. are "special" models, usually related to racing.
But THE Turbo is THE Turbo.

Regarding the Turbo S Cab: honestly, I need to look it up.
There has been a 993 Turbo Cab in a very limited production number but I don't remember a Turbo S Cab.
I might be wrong though.

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Jun 23, 2004 8:46:48 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Moogle

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

Quote:
Moogle said:
RC, why is the 996 turbo THE turbo?

will it no longer be THE turbo when the 997 turbo comes out?

how about the 996 Turbo S Cab...

if i'm not wrong, this is the first Turbo S Cab ever?

Presumably the 997TT will be more performance/sportscar focused, with less of the GT spin of 996TT; and if P offers a GT-focused 4-door sedan that will allow even greater pure sportscar focus for 997TT.

996TTS (both Coupe and Cab) I suspect will be less "special" than 993TurboS, both because 996TT is first mass-produced Turbo and the 996TTS is largely a cosmetic upgrade of 996TT X-50 which sold innumerable copies...whereas 993TurboS was a significant performance upgrade and sold in very limited quantities (after a 993Turbo run that itself was much smaller than the 996TT production volume). No question 996TTS is a phenomenal car, but I wouldn't bet on remarkable resale value. And I suspect 997TT is probably only 12 months or so away....I would argue today's P will not want to miss a high-volume, major profit contributor like TT in its lineup for any extended period. SL55 is clearly an amazing profit machine for Merc....and IMO most of TTCab buyer base overlap is with SL55.

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Jun 23, 2004 9:28:16 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Captain Tal

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

I think the choice would be between a new 997S and a 2nd hand 996TT.

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Jun 23, 2004 11:10:36 PM

lev: Pilot; Loc: Canada, Toronto; Posts: 397, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 15, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

"I think the choice would be between a new 997S and a 2nd hand 996TT."

EXACTLY!

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Jun 24, 2004 2:59:22 PM

Paul S in TX: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 259, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 20, 2002; Reply to: Captain Tal

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

To me, this would be an absolute no brainer. The Turbo.

I presume you know that a 996 C4S is not exactly a Turbo without the turbos. The engines are vastly different with the Turbo having a true dry sump engine vs. the C4S that is the M96 engine. Preowned Turbo's are a screaming deal compared to the price of a C4S.

If the additional HP and torque is concerning you, the Turbo is as good of a daily driver as any Porsche has ever been. When you want to go fast you can, and when you need to drive in poor weather (with winter tires, if we're talking snow), it's a piece of cake.

Truthfully, it amazes me that more buyers don't pick a preowned Turbo over a C4S--much, much more car for the similar money. What's not to love about that?

Mine is an 01 Turbo (May 2001 production) and it's been an excellent car now, for almost 3 yrs and 30,000 miles.

Take the Turbo, you won't regret it.

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Jun 24, 2004 4:12:06 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Captain Tal

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

Quote:
Captain Tal said:
I need your advice. I have been quietly luking here for a couple of months. Now, I am days away from pulling the trigger on my first Porsche! I am soo excited I can hardly stand it! However, I am in a dilema.

I am not sure which I should buy; an 02-03 C4S or a 00-01 TT? I know there are advantages to each decision so I thought I would get your feedback.

This car will be a daily driver (though not too much because I work out of my home).

What are your thoughts? I have not driven a TT, I am afraid if I do, I won't like the C4S.

Your help is appreciated.

TL

Preowned TT's have sustained the huge depreciation and if you can buy one for the right price do it. The TT is the best performance car in its price range.

The C4S is nothing more than a weak imitation of the TT.

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Jun 24, 2004 4:37:42 PM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: Captain Tal

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

Quote:
What are your thoughts? I have not driven a TT, I am afraid if I do, I won't like the C4S

you are probably right.

and this is the answer to your question as well

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Jun 25, 2004 2:43:09 AM

Captain Tal: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 13, Gallery; Registered on: May 30, 2004; Reply to: Paul S in TX

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

You make a good case for the Turbo. I'm not sure I understand all the differences between the two cars. Two new books arrived today and I am digging for differences.

If you can elaborate on any important ones including your knowledge of residual values of the Turbo, I would appreciate it.

I have narrowed it down to these two cars or an approximation therof.

04 C4S

P74 - Xenon Headlamp Package
680 - Bose High End Sound Package
446 - Wheel Caps with Colored Crest
342 - Heated Front Seats
P82 - Technic Package
416 - 18-inch GT3 wheel
C02 - U.S. Standard/Emissions
Y06 - Alum/Lthr Shifter/Brake Handle
XLF - Sport Exhaust System
M6A - Black Mats - Porsche lettering
425 - Rear Window Wiper
Y29 - Aluminum/Chrome X71,X70,X54
P11 - Self-Dim Mirrors & Rain Sensor

$89,750

or this TT

Ebay 01 TT

Anybody know this guy or his car?

Im getting real close and I don't mind saying I am anxious to figure this out.

Thanks for your help.

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Jun 25, 2004 2:59:57 AM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: Captain Tal

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

take the TT, never look back.

C4S is just a heavy C4

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Jun 25, 2004 5:19:10 PM

Paul S in TX: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 259, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 20, 2002; Reply to: Captain Tal

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

I'm no expert residual value wise, but a new 04 C4S will depreciate more than an 01 Turbo that's already depreciated significantly.

BTW, the O1 Turbo on Ebay you're looking at appears to be an early production 01 (with the front bumper warts). While not the end of the world, the front bumper warts are less attractive than later production 01's and newer, and a lot of folks replaced their stock front bumpers to be rid of them, which costs some money/body shop time.

The clear bra is not totally invisable--I've got it on my Turbo, so take that with a grain of salt. And the Fabspeed exhaust may be a bad thing because of resonance issues. And I don't think you get 25 HP from an exhaust. If you don't like the exhaust, you could put the original back on. Fortunately the seller hung on to the original one.

My guess is you could find other 01's (later production without warts and stock exhaust) for this money. I wouldn't pay his "buy it now price", as that's too high.

Because of the Fabspeed, the issue with the carbon fiber pieces, 01 with warts--this one's not one I'd be an anxious bidder for. But those are my personal biases/dislikes.

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Jun 25, 2004 9:16:50 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: Paul S in TX

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

Quote:
Paul S in TX said:
I presume you know that a 996 C4S is not exactly a Turbo without the turbos. The engines are vastly different with the Turbo having a true dry sump engine vs. the C4S that is the M96 engine.

Paul, according to what I've been reading on the net, all 996 engines are designated as M96. However, they do have sub-designations and differences such as:

M96/03 Carrera 320bhp 3.6L
M96/23 Boxster
M96/70 Turbo/GT2
M96/79 GT3

The M96/03 has a semi-dry sump a.k.a. "integrated dry sump" design. This system is fine for hard street driving.

I guess the M96/23 has a semi-dry sump as well.

The M96/70 and and M96/79 engines use the same 1963 racing dry sump design from the air-cooled M64 engine blocks. The threat of oil starvation under track conditions is not an issue here.

Every one of these engines, be it dry or semi-dry, can have a rear main seal failure at any time.

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Jun 26, 2004 8:55:00 AM

Robut Rarecar: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 5, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 30, 2004; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

MAVERICK
I read in another Forum that 996Turbo and GT3's didn't suffer from RMS failures and that this "Feature" was confined to base M96 engines and that it appears to happen at a totally unacceptable rate. Am I misinformed?

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Jun 26, 2004 6:10:46 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: Robut Rarecar

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

Quote:
Robut Rarecar said:
MAVERICK
I read in another Forum that 996Turbo and GT3's didn't suffer from RMS failures and that this "Feature" was confined to base M96 engines and that it appears to happen at a totally unacceptable rate. Am I misinformed?

Yes, sir, you are misinformed. Refer to a Rennlist thread entitled "Leaking rear main seal" in the GT2/GT3 forum where a GT3 in Canada suffered an RMS failure during a driver's education event. The GT3's RMS had a tiny leak from the day it was delivered new and the seal completely failed at approximately 10,000 km. Viken Bedrossian, a Rennlist member who seems to know Porsche's very well, says, "The RMS leak is not limited to the regular 996 engines. There have been many reports from 964, 993 and 996 cars with the same basic crankcase design. Do a search within the 993 and the Turbo forums and you'll find some discussion on this.". The "basic crankcase design" he refers to is the original 1963 dry-sump design.

Since I'm not a member at Rennlist yet, I could not perform a search on their forums, so I scanned the first 45 pages on Rennlist's 996Turbo forum and found no mention of RMS failures. I shall have to look into the 993 Turbo forum next when I get the time. From what I've read, it's my understanding that Turbo/GT2/GT3 engines that develop an RMS leak are rare but possible as is shown by the above GT3 case. In the case of base M96 engines, the RMS failure is not rare and should not spark surprise if it happens. What is the RMS failure rate of base M96 engines? Only Porsche AG or a large Porsche dealer knows and we would need insiders from either of them to reveal the information. Danny911 used to work for a dealer and said that when the boxsters and 996's first came out, two or three service bays were frequently occupied with cars experiencing RMS failures. Has the frequency reduced since the 3.6L was introduced? I don't know. The best way to find out would be to pay a visit to your local Porsche service center and quietly talk to the mechanics who have been there for a long time.

The best line I've come across is Porsche's are not as reliable as Japanese cars yet not as troublesome as Italian cars. They occupy the middle ground. I say if you own a Porsche without a factory warranty, tis best to set aside some cash and patience.

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Jun 26, 2004 6:56:03 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

MAVERICK is right, like Viken said, any car (Porsche or not) can have a rear main seal leak, and GT3/GT2/TT's are no better. Its just that its an ocasional thing and not with the ridiculous frequecy as bosxters and carreras. So the RMS "issue" is ONLY with carerras and boxsters. Its not a issue to be considered with the GT3/GT2/TT, RMS leaks are no more than any other car.

And so the aircooled 911's (same cranckcase design as the GT3/GT2/TT) also got RMS leaks but unlike 996carreras/boxters, they were fixed I believe by simply tightening the spring. Since in the 996/986 case its due to an inherent design flaw, there is no fix, nor prevention, and the frecuency goes beyond normal occurence for a car.

As to the 3.6l engine of the 996, the RMS frecuency seems to be just the same.

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Jun 28, 2004 1:36:49 PM

cavanagh: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 2, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2004; Reply to: Captain Tal

Re: Help - 01 TT or 03 C4S?

i was in the same situation a couple of months ago i test drove the 4s and loved it and then i got a call to say they had a turbo with the spec and colour i wanted. Went for a drive bought it before i got out of the car only one answer for me buy the turbo

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