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Re: F430 Power Figure?
Quote:
rossi said:Quote:
RC said:
Got this in: 450 HP. Did somebody hear the same? Just curious.
I read 450 hp in some articles (magazines, internet).
Dealer keeps telling me that it will be "close to 500 hp".
I know that dealers keep telling customers "close to 500 HP" but I heard lately that Ferrari keeps the power at around 450 HP for various reasons (one rumor indicates durability issues) and wants to offer later on a F430 CS or Evoluzione (or whatever the name) with a modified engine and "close to 500 HP".
We might know more in September...
Re: F430 Power Figure?
In Antwort auf:
RC said:
I know that dealers keep telling customers "close to 500 HP" but I heard lately that Ferrari keeps the power at around 450 HP for various reasons (one rumor indicates durability issues) and wants to offer later on a F430 CS or Evoluzione (or whatever the name) with a modified engine and "close to 500 HP".
We might know more in September...
450 hp might be a bit disappointing after all what has been said and written and concerning the opponents the 430 will have to face. Also a difference of nearly 500 horses between regular 430 and CS would be too much IMO. 430 owners could be really pissed, when they have to learn that their new expensive toy will be short of 50 hp...
Re: F430 Power Figure?
Whatever the figure, to beat the 550bhp+ 516ftlbs Ford GT, you need rather more than a puny N/A 4.2 V8.
The Gallardo with its 0-100mph in 9 flat is also a tough ask, I wouldn't have too much faith in the car if It had 480hp even.
500bhp is the minimum these days for a 100K car.
The Gallardo with its 0-100mph in 9 flat is also a tough ask, I wouldn't have too much faith in the car if It had 480hp even.
500bhp is the minimum these days for a 100K car.
Re: F430 Power Figure?
Quote:
///AMG Mercedes said:
Whatever the figure, to beat the 550bhp+ 516ftlbs Ford GT, you need rather more than a puny N/A 4.2 V8.
The Gallardo with its 0-100mph in 9 flat is also a tough ask, I wouldn't have too much faith in the car if It had 480hp even.
500bhp is the minimum these days for a 100K car.
A hp number doesn't mean jack in all cases. It's power to weight ratio and how well a car puts the power down. Hell the 425 hp Challange Stradale basically beats the GT3 and is right behind the GT and Gallardo which have much more hp. I'm sure even a "480 hp" new car would beat those two, you'll see. Also if you think a 4.2 or 4.3 liter Ferrari engine is puny you need to read up on Ferrari powerplants! Ferrari doesn't "cheat" and add a supercharger that sucks power and sounds like crap like Ford does. There is more to life then displacement, like DOHC, 40 valves, a 9000 rpm redline and a flat plane crank....
Re: F430 Power Figure?
Look I'm not getting into this whole argument into what is cheating or not. Mercedes has been using SOHC for over a decade now and 3 valves per cylinder purely for economy and emissions control. For an everday car low down torque and durability are far more important than 9000rpm redline and stretching an engine to its limits, its ok in a sportscar and thats fine, Mercedes never pretends to build sportscars, so there is even no argument at all.
You can stick to supporting 100hp/litre engines but don't think that they're the best in the world.
Agressive gearing on a torque less engine is fine, but coupled to a torquey engine it makes for scinitillating performance in every gear at any speed. Ferrari should know that to beat the Gallardo's engine they have a tough job, and I'm not the only one that thinks so. HP is HP, it sells cars.
You can stick to supporting 100hp/litre engines but don't think that they're the best in the world.
Agressive gearing on a torque less engine is fine, but coupled to a torquey engine it makes for scinitillating performance in every gear at any speed. Ferrari should know that to beat the Gallardo's engine they have a tough job, and I'm not the only one that thinks so. HP is HP, it sells cars.
Re: F430 Power Figure?
Quote:
///AMG Mercedes said:
Look I'm not getting into this whole argument into what is cheating or not. Mercedes has been using SOHC for over a decade now and 3 valves per cylinder purely for economy and emissions control. For an everday car low down torque and durability are far more important than 9000rpm redline and stretching an engine to its limits, its ok in a sportscar and thats fine, Mercedes never pretends to build sportscars, so there is even no argument at all.
You can stick to supporting 100hp/litre engines but don't think that they're the best in the world.
Agressive gearing on a torque less engine is fine, but coupled to a torquey engine it makes for scinitillating performance in every gear at any speed. Ferrari should know that to beat the Gallardo's engine they have a tough job, and I'm not the only one that thinks so. HP is HP, it sells cars.
In the backroads twisties, the 360 w/only 400hp and deminimus torque remains a tough car to beat even today...even by the Gallardo w/its 500hp. I would argue Gallardo's steering feel is slightly inferior to 360 (prob the AWD effect) and Gallardo's hp-torque dynamic actually causes traction control issues in coming out of curves.....again, both 360 and G are arguably 2 of the world's best sports cars (thus many G buyers also have a 360), but each brings unique strengths and weaknesses. Simple hp, torque and 0-60MPH comparos are fairly meaningless to actual buyers and drivers of these cars....as the driving experience (meaning an intense back-to-back comparo of each of these cars after one has familiarized oneself w/the dynamic nuances of each car) is what really matters.
Jun 17, 2004 10:11:08 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: F430 Power Figure?
Quote:
///AMG Mercedes said:
Mercedes has been using SOHC for over a decade now and 3 valves per cylinder purely for economy and emissions control.
not a good example, after years of preaching about their 3 valve technology, now they have quietly gone back to 4 valve in their 3.5l V6 engine (SLK 350 for example), and their next line of V8's
now lest hope they drop supercharging as well soon 
Jun 18, 2004 9:06:07 AM
- Bilal
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Carlos from Spain
Re: F430 Power Figure?
The new engine will "spawn" the next generation of MB engines of a family of V8's and V12's. Supercharging is already being ditched by AMG when the 2006 facelift of the SL comes out, in place will be a N/A 6.3 V8 with 600Nm and 500bhp minimum for "instant throttle response" and economy. This engine is already planned to power the future babay McLaren supercar, however like the SLR, as a last minute strategy, it could be twin turbocharged to produce 700bhp.... 
Jun 18, 2004 12:05:49 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Jun 18, 2004 12:56:16 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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MKSGR
Jun 18, 2004 2:23:43 PM
- watt
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: F430 Power Figure?
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
Equally powered? Yes.
But: 20% less torque!
You keep the 20% torque, and I'll keep the better power delivery and instant and fast rev's
Carlos,
i think supercharging is one of the reasons there's no extended warrantee on AMG's. their long term reliability and cost to maintain SUX bigtime. so they were forced to change.
i for one will never buy another facade MB -- a remnant of what once was. their f.g F1 engines can barely last a lap, much less thier S600's etc after 40,000 miles
Jun 18, 2004 2:56:46 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Jun 19, 2004 4:01:05 AM
- watt
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Carlos from Spain
Re: F430 Power Figure?
Carlos my friend,
GT2 is a wonderful car; but the zest and vivacity of the CS, the focused design is so uplifting!!! just look at the carbon mirror and door interior panels.... wow.
a CS is markedly slower than a GT2 but so magnificent. classic german stereotype vs. italian, but with the italian now adding reliability and great engineering... and the german losing its focus and karma in search of volume and profit.
if i was driving my long drives through Nevada hammering it to redline in all 6 gears, i could love nothing but a gt2, but i do that rarely now. but around town and the mountains, the CS is more amusing [and any potential fragility less threatening]. and perhaps i have bored myself with 3 Gt2's and need some variety?????
and the gt3 is truly a wonderful car!!!! performing like a CS but w/o the obvious beauty and emotion... delightful on the track... and 1/2 the cost, eh?
do i make any sense??? these are the 3 finest cars i have ever experienced.... and NA vs Turbo isnt the issue [HP as you pose the ? could be equal but torque would not]. the absolute reliability under heavy usage of gt2/3 has great beauty that is less flashy and visible than the CS...
the physical and sensual appeal and total experience of the CS is hard to beat, though... it's a change in my brain, having been a Porsche guy for 20 years, so my eyes opening to CS has as much to do with it as the cars themselves.
obviously i cant really answer your question.
GT2 is a wonderful car; but the zest and vivacity of the CS, the focused design is so uplifting!!! just look at the carbon mirror and door interior panels.... wow.
a CS is markedly slower than a GT2 but so magnificent. classic german stereotype vs. italian, but with the italian now adding reliability and great engineering... and the german losing its focus and karma in search of volume and profit.
if i was driving my long drives through Nevada hammering it to redline in all 6 gears, i could love nothing but a gt2, but i do that rarely now. but around town and the mountains, the CS is more amusing [and any potential fragility less threatening]. and perhaps i have bored myself with 3 Gt2's and need some variety?????
and the gt3 is truly a wonderful car!!!! performing like a CS but w/o the obvious beauty and emotion... delightful on the track... and 1/2 the cost, eh?
do i make any sense??? these are the 3 finest cars i have ever experienced.... and NA vs Turbo isnt the issue [HP as you pose the ? could be equal but torque would not]. the absolute reliability under heavy usage of gt2/3 has great beauty that is less flashy and visible than the CS...
the physical and sensual appeal and total experience of the CS is hard to beat, though... it's a change in my brain, having been a Porsche guy for 20 years, so my eyes opening to CS has as much to do with it as the cars themselves.
obviously i cant really answer your question.
Re: F430 Power Figure?
Quote:
watt said:
Carlos my friend,
GT2 is a wonderful car; but the zest and vivacity of the CS, the focused design is so uplifting!!! just look at the carbon mirror and door interior panels.... wow.
a CS is markedly slower than a GT2 but so magnificent. classic german stereotype vs. italian, but with the italian now adding reliability and great engineering... and the german losing its focus and karma in search of volume and profit.
if i was driving my long drives through Nevada hammering it to redline in all 6 gears, i could love nothing but a gt2, but i do that rarely now. but around town and the mountains, the CS is more amusing [and any potential fragility less threatening]. and perhaps i have bored myself with 3 Gt2's and need some variety?????
and the gt3 is truly a wonderful car!!!! performing like a CS but w/o the obvious beauty and emotion... delightful on the track... and 1/2 the cost, eh?
do i make any sense??? these are the 3 finest cars i have ever experienced.... and NA vs Turbo isnt the issue [HP as you pose the ? could be equal but torque would not]. the absolute reliability under heavy usage of gt2/3 has great beauty that is less flashy and visible than the CS...
the physical and sensual appeal and total experience of the CS is hard to beat, though... it's a change in my brain, having been a Porsche guy for 20 years, so my eyes opening to CS has as much to do with it as the cars themselves.
obviously i cant really answer your question.
Watt, with the above testimonial to CS you could be an amazing spokesman for F.....and ideally get your 430 early (and at invoice cost) from FBH....too bad 360/430 just seem to sell themselves w/ no ads needed....too many loyal addicts....
Jun 19, 2004 8:30:10 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: F430 Power Figure?
Quote:
watt said:do i make any sense???
Watt,
You certainly do, there is no absolute right answer, but what is true is that the CS is what gives you the best experience at this moment
but from your description if I didn't know better I would think you were talking about a woman who has got you under her spell!
Jun 19, 2004 10:54:42 AM
- Rossi
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Carlos from Spain
Re: F430 Power Figure?
Quote:
rossi said:Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
but from your description if I didn't know better I would think you were talking about a woman who has got you under her spell!
Well, who knows for sure...
for the honesty of my life -- better a car than another woman!!! and rossi's quote from the topgear video sums it up...
VK -- i owned a 360 spider but found it too poseur... it's the return to lightweight performance focus of the CS that rings my bell... I'm not sure i want a 430... but a 430 CS for sure....
430 orders not being taken and i hear all 360 orders unfilled to date have been transferred to 430 orders making for quite a backlog.... what do you guys hear?
Re: F430 Power Figure?
Getting an early 430 (without buying in secondary mkt) will be tricky....esp in major mkts w/deep buyer bases. Early spots are essentially going to that large mass of early (and serial) 360 buyers (many of whom have done the Coupe to Spyder to CS transition over past 3-4 yrs)....problem is there is large group of very wealthy 360 addicts who have gotten several new F cars within past 3-4 yrs. If you want an early 430 (from primary mkt), I'd put the lobbying effort w/your dealer and FNA into high gear.....
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