Jun 16, 2004 7:12:11 PM
- Moogle
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Carlos from Spain
Crown
Board: Porsche - 911 - 997
Language: English
Region: Worldwide
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Jun 16, 2004 7:26:12 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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MKSGR
Re: Boxster
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
torque converter ... its probably cheaper to make and maintain, at least now, so it will be more popular on lower end cars or models were money is a big factor.
Actually, a quality torque converter costs 15x to 20x as much as a DSG solution
Really? I din't know that! yikes I though it would be more expensive now since the technology is new and production low, etc and become cheaper close to a manual's cost in the future, but 15x to 20x 
thats quite a difference!Does that mean Porsche will charge 15x to 20x less for the DSG than what they were charging for the Tip?
Jun 16, 2004 7:29:27 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Jun 16, 2004 7:29:43 PM
- Moogle
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Boxster
if porsche will have 3 tranny options when the DSG comes out (considering they don't eliminate the Tip altogether)
it will probably be
1. 6 speed Traditional Manual (standard)
2. 6 speed Tiptronic S ($3000~)
3. 6 speed DSG ($4000~)
less expensive wouldnt make sense, and too much more expensive wouldnt make sense either, porsche loves to niche market
look at all the 911 variants,
now, with transmissions, as well as their 911 variants, its like baskin 31 flavours... something for everyone.
it will probably be
1. 6 speed Traditional Manual (standard)
2. 6 speed Tiptronic S ($3000~)
3. 6 speed DSG ($4000~)
less expensive wouldnt make sense, and too much more expensive wouldnt make sense either, porsche loves to niche market
look at all the 911 variants,now, with transmissions, as well as their 911 variants, its like baskin 31 flavours... something for everyone.
Re: Boxster
Should be interesting to see if BMW only offers 7-speed SMG on new M5....w/no traditional manual available; F and Lambo clearly seem to be phasing out traditional manuals (see 360CS and Enzo). Given that P has opted for this funky new steering on 997 (w/no traditional steering rack available on 997), I wouldn't be surprised to see P phase out traditional manuals as well over next 3-4 yrs.
Jun 16, 2004 7:40:14 PM
- FixedWing
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Carlos from Spain
Manual worship
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
Heaven forbid!! no matter how good it is performance wise, it will never compensate for the involvement and pleasure of a manual in a sportcar for some people, myself included. The future of sequentials, yes. The future of manuals? never
I wonder if they use to say the same thing about syncros ???
Stephen
Jun 16, 2004 9:42:59 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Boxster
Quote:
VKSF said:
Should be interesting to see if BMW only offers 7-speed SMG on new M5....w/no traditional manual available
Thats what they claim at least, BMW says only 7-speed SMG will be offered in the M5... but maybe its just for US and maybe Europe it will get a manual option, I don't know.
Jun 17, 2004 6:01:29 AM
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MKSGR
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Boxster
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
torque converter ... its probably cheaper to make and maintain, at least now, so it will be more popular on lower end cars or models were money is a big factor.
Actually, a quality torque converter costs 15x to 20x as much as a DSG solution
Does that mean Porsche will charge 15x to 20x less for the DSG than what they were charging for the Tip?
I was also quite amazed when I heard that first. Might be, however, that Porsche will use a more expensive, top-of-the-league double clutch system which is slightly more expensive. But the ratio should still remain in that range
Jun 17, 2004 3:32:24 PM
- Paul S in TX
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Re: Boxster
Quote:
Moogle said:
if porsche will have 3 tranny options when the DSG comes out (considering they don't eliminate the Tip altogether)
it will probably be
1. 6 speed Traditional Manual (standard)
2. 6 speed Tiptronic S ($3000~)
3. 6 speed DSG ($4000~)
less expensive wouldnt make sense, and too much more expensive wouldnt make sense either, porsche loves to niche market
now, with transmissions, as well as their 911 variants, its like baskin 31 flavours... something for everyone.
I like the way you think on pricing. But being mindful that Ferrari charges, what, $10 K for the F-1, I wouldn't be stunned that the DSG is somewhere in that territory especially if Porsche continues to offer the Tip. If the Tip drops out, then I think you might see DSG for about what a Tip costs now.
Re: Boxster
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Actually, a quality torque converter costs 15x to 20x as much as a DSG solution
MKSGR,
When you say that, what exactly are comparing?
It cannot be the prices of the respective complete transmissions, because that would also mean that a typical torque converter/epicyclic transmission would have to be more than 15 to 20 times more expensive than a typical manual gearbox, which is far from being the case.
If it were the case, then the slush-pump auto would not have been Detroit's "transmission of choice" for the last 5 to 6 decades! The famous GM/Ford/Chrysler bean counters would never have allowed it to get that way.
Re: Boxster
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
Actually, a quality torque converter costs 15x to 20x as much as a DSG solution
MKSGR,
When you say that, what exactly are comparing?
It cannot be the prices of the respective complete transmissions, because that would also mean that a typical torque converter/epicyclic transmission would have to be more than 15 to 20 times more expensive than a typical manual gearbox, which is far from being the case.
If it were the case, then the slush-pump auto would not have been Detroit's "transmission of choice" for the last 5 to 6 decades! The famous GM/Ford/Chrysler bean counters would never have allowed it to get that way.
Actually, I am referring to a typical torque converter used in German upper-class cars (BMW 5 series, 7 series, E class, S class etc.). The stuff used in american cars may be much cheaper, though.
The cost ratio does indeed relate to the entire gear unit. Obviously, the cost ratio does not necessarily reflect upon the prices charged to the customer
Re: Boxster
Quote:
MKSGR said:
The cost ratio does indeed relate to the entire gear unit. Obviously, the cost ratio does not necessarily reflect upon the prices charged to the customer
I think the source of your information got the decimal point in the wrong place when comparing the production costs of slush pump auto trannies to manual gearboxes. And even then, a factor of 1.5 to 1 would be on the high side.
Jun 18, 2004 10:55:14 PM
- Moogle
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Boxster
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
Well, the DSG must be really cheap now because I just read in a mag that they are now offering it in the VW Touran
is it standard or an option...
if an option, anyone know how much they are charging?...
(just wait and see porsche's option be essentially the same unit with minimal modifications but at 5-10 times the price)
Jun 18, 2004 11:21:01 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Boxster
Quote:
Moogle said:Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
Well, the DSG must be really cheap now because I just read in a mag that they are now offering it in the VW Touran
is it standard or an option...
if an option, anyone know how much they are charging?...
(just wait and see porsche's option be essentially the same unit with minimal modifications but at 5-10 times the price)
Its an option for sure, these are mass market low end models, so manual would be the standard choice, even if the DSG were even cheaper than the manual, they would dare offer an auto as standard, we europeans love our manuals.
But it can't be a very expesive option, these are very economical and non-perfromance oriented cars, VW Touran and diesel version of the Golf, so its got to be cheap.
As to Porsche charging 5x-10x more, now that is something we do now for sure
Re: Boxster
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
The cost ratio does indeed relate to the entire gear unit. Obviously, the cost ratio does not necessarily reflect upon the prices charged to the customer
I think the source of your information got the decimal point in the wrong place when comparing the production costs of slush pump auto trannies to manual gearboxes. And even then, a factor of 1.5 to 1 would be on the high side.
Rest assured, the source is highly reliable and the decimal point is in the right location.
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