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    Turbo Superiority

    I agree with others, the Turbo is king, even on the track. On a level playing field, the Gt3 and RS won't touch it, not in the twisties, certainly not on the straight.
    If you'll notice, they always put street tires on the TT for any head to head sibling track battle, that is not mere chance, porsche knows what they are doing, very well. You can't have the turbo humiliating it's little bratty brothers in their own playpen, the track!
    How many 3's would they sell if it was notably slower than the 'gt touring TT' on the track? I'm sure a few less than they have so far!
    When they do put track tires on a TT with a tuned, stock, suspension you get an earth shattering 7:40, a lifetime ahead of either 3 at the 'ring.
    When I had mine on a high speed track like Pocono, I soon learned how rear biased it is, esp compared to my sorted out 996C4S,aerokit/x73/cups. Clearly superior in every way, even on street tires with a stock dumbed down alignment. It takes some getting used to if you're coming from a 996TT/4S platform. Stability? It's rock stable lap after lap at 150mph+. Spanking everthing in sight(in my red group), including z06's , vipers and 996gt3's. Just my simple country farmboy obsevations!

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Quote:
    TT Surgeon said:
    I agree with others, the Turbo is king, even on the track. On a level playing field, the Gt3 and RS won't touch it, not in the twisties, certainly not on the straight.
    If you'll notice, they always put street tires on the TT for any head to head sibling track battle, that is not mere chance, porsche knows what they are doing, very well. You can't have the turbo humiliating it's little bratty brothers in their own playpen, the track!
    How many 3's would they sell if it was notably slower than the 'gt touring TT' on the track? I'm sure a few less than they have so far!
    When they do put track tires on a TT with a tuned, stock, suspension you get an earth shattering 7:40, a lifetime ahead of either 3 at the 'ring.
    When I had mine on a high speed track like Pocono, I soon learned how rear biased it is, esp compared to my sorted out 996C4S,aerokit/x73/cups. Clearly superior in every way, even on street tires with a stock dumbed down alignment. It takes some getting used to if you're coming from a 996TT/4S platform. Stability? It's rock stable lap after lap at 150mph+. Spanking everthing in sight(in my red group), including z06's , vipers and 996gt3's. Just my simple country farmboy obsevations!



    Similar experience here and I am awaiting your observations once you get those hoosiers on, especially how they compare to the cups on your C4S. Keep us posted.

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Any observations on speed/stability of 997TT vs 997GT3/RS (all on street tires) w/a good, amateur rennteam driver on public mtn twisties (which may have some bumpy stretches).....not timing races; just perceived speed/precision/balance?

    My bet is 997TT will easily win....suspect most guys w/something to lose in life prefer to have PSM, esp when driving mtn twisties, w/oncoming cars that may suddenly come into view....and not be in their own lane....

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    I have a multiple life insurance policies, disability, health, auto, homeowners, umbrella, etc. PSM is just another one that happens to be no extra charge with the car. I don't get paid to drive, so I see no reason to eliminate PSM

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    So just an alignement can make you gain over 10secs at NBR (from SA lap times)? Doubtfull.

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Alignment and tires, yes sir.

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    SA only saw a 2secs delta between tires...

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Turbo is technologically a far superior car than the 3/RS.

    4WD is nice but a bit heavy and cumbersome.

    That is why the GT2 will be a MONSTER.

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    FWIW, The Excellence review says they purposely "thrashed" the car and couldn't get PSM to kick in. That says it all for me knowing those guys have more skill than I.

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    SA only saw a 2secs delta between tires...



    apart from SA, most people who track routinely can tell you from experience that given the same identical car with same suspension settings, track tires can be worth about 2 seconds on a 2.5-3 mile road course. For the same length road course, 50 additional hp is worth about 1 second for lap. The hp advantage obviously is more important on high speed tracks vs tighter tracks. I think it is fully possible for a TT aligned to GT3 type camber/toe settings and using track tires to have an appreciable gain over a factory delivered TT on the ring. As RC once alluded, I think the TT has been purposely "dumbed-down" to open up roles for the GT3/RS/GT2

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    FWIW, The Excellence review says they purposely "thrashed" the car and couldn't get PSM to kick in. That says it all for me knowing those guys have more skill than I.



    Yup, same experience here with the handling.

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...true#Post364388

    My instructor was driving like a possessed maniac and still no PSM light came on.

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:
    FWIW, The Excellence review says they purposely "thrashed" the car and couldn't get PSM to kick in. That says it all for me knowing those guys have more skill than I.



    Yup, same experience here with the handling.

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...true#Post364388

    My instructor was driving like a possessed maniac and still no PSM light came on.



    That doesn't make sense at all, my PSM was on at every corner during my first DE on stock tires, so bad that I turned it off. Again, same thing in an AX on Hoosiers, had to turn it off to get best times.
    btw, driving like a maniac is very relative...
    But again, like eclou and others I would never turn it off on the street.

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Quote:
    aah986 said:


    That doesn't make sense at all, my PSM was on at every corner during my first DE on stock tires, so bad that I turned it off.




    Darn it! I hate when that happens!

    I'll try to find article where they said they couldn't get PSM to enguage no matter how they tried.

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    in the turbo i fall asleep , not so in the GT3 , sorry . i assume the GT2 will be such a nicer car to drive than the numb feeling TT .

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Quote:
    aah986 said:


    That doesn't make sense at all, my PSM was on at every corner during my first DE on stock tires, so bad that I turned it off.




    Darn it! I hate when that happens!

    I'll try to find article where they said they couldn't get PSM to enguage no matter how they tried.



    I believe you, trust me. It looks like either my PSM has a lower threshold, or those guys were driving like whimps and afraid of going past 8 or 9th, that's how I drive on the track.
    To think of it again, maybe the extra 80hp+ I have are too much for the PSM at the limits, but I also remember when the car was stock I took it to my preferred mountain road and the PSM came on pretty frequently and almost at every tight fast turn.

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Mine came on about 3 times in my last run session alone.

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=126501

    The Sport Auto test of the 997 TT used the same new MPS Cup tyres as their 997 GT3 test. The Ring times of 7.54 for the Turbo and 7.47 for the GT3 can most likely be improved for both cars with track tweaking (most GT3 trackers change the stock alignment).

    But out of the box the GT3 is quicker around the Ring (in the hands of professional drivers).

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    wow, AUM, it is surprising to hear TT run tne Ring at 7.54 while GT3 can do it at 7.47 giving at the last segment of the Ring is a very long straight away...

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Quote:
    WR said:
    wow, AUM, it is surprising to hear TT run tne Ring at 7.54 while GT3 can do it at 7.47 giving at the last segment of the Ring is a very long straight away...



    Totally agree. Pretty unbelievable if you ask me. Either there was sth wrong with car (alignment)/track conditions or porsche has lost the plot with 997tt (unlikely). Will there be other credible attempts by AMS or other magazines?

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Quote:
    GT said:
    Quote:
    WR said:
    wow, AUM, it is surprising to hear TT run tne Ring at 7.54 while GT3 can do it at 7.47 giving at the last segment of the Ring is a very long straight away...



    Totally agree. Pretty unbelievable if you ask me. Either there was sth wrong with car (alignment)/track conditions or porsche has lost the plot with 997tt (unlikely). Will there be other credible attempts by AMS or other magazines?



    There was a longer thread on rennteam in which RC commented that the special setup of the TT might work better with the Michelin standard tires vs the cup tires. The TT would be more difficult to handle at the limit with the cups. Thus the normal guess that cups shave 3-5 secs on the ring times might not apply for the ring.

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Quote:
    WR said:
    wow, AUM, it is surprising to hear TT run tne Ring at 7.54 while GT3 can do it at 7.47 giving at the last segment of the Ring is a very long straight away...



    Correction. The Sport Auto GT3 time is 7.48. These are the definitive Sport Auto super test times. The most (and only) credible comparison of Ring times.

    The GT3 carries more speed through corners than the TT. Check the Sport Auto data.

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    997TT not really faster than 996TT with a lot more HP... Not good...

    That was the final blow for me not getting the TT...

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    997TT not really faster than 996TT with a lot more HP... Not good...




    Yes indeed. The 996 TT with street tires and 420 HP is just two seconds slower than the 997 Turbo with new Cups and 480 HP. There is not much progress in any of the 997 track times (also for GT3 and RS).

    Maybe the 997 GT2 will deliver. But 7.46 for the 996 GT2 on street tires is not easy to beat. More power and more sophisticated electronics do not always produce faster lap times.

    Re: Turbo Superiority

    The TT is spec'd to run so little front negative camber stock that it is no wonder people have complained about understeer. Any car needs a healthy amount negative camber to corner well. Look at the wide discrepancy between the TT specs vs GT3 track specs for front camber:

    TT: -0.4
    GT3: -2.0

    Now the TT alignment has little adjustability in it, so in order to get a fair amount more of negative camber the car has to be lowered. I have Techart -15mm springs in mine, and have switched my alignment to GT3 street specs:

    -1.2 front, -1.6 rear camber.

    In my opinion, the car feels alot more neutral in handling so far but I have not gotten back on the track with these settings.

    If anyone has access to the factory alignment specs of all the 964/993/996 series it would be interesting to view

     
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