Jun 5, 2004 4:12:12 AM
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Ron (Houston)
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Board: Other Sports Cars
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Jun 6, 2004 2:02:19 PM
- fritz
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Reply to:
Ron (Houston)
Re: Why Schumi is faster than Ruben
Thank you very, very much Ron 
Very revealing data (I'll show them to some brazillian friends who used to say that Ruben's car was under Shummi's). I'll carefully analyze them, for shure I'll learn something.
Left foot braking is in many ocassions essential! The ones who have had rallyes expiriences know that!
Michael is a MASTER, a winner. I'm, shure his brain goes even faster than his Ferrari
Very revealing data (I'll show them to some brazillian friends who used to say that Ruben's car was under Shummi's). I'll carefully analyze them, for shure I'll learn something.
Left foot braking is in many ocassions essential! The ones who have had rallyes expiriences know that!
Michael is a MASTER, a winner. I'm, shure his brain goes even faster than his Ferrari
Re: Why Schumi is faster than Ruben
Quote:
fritz said:
Thanks Ron, fascinating telemetry printouts!
I guess the conclusion has to be that any F1 driver who sees that and has not yet started practicing left-foot braking is just not taking his job seriously enough!
A month ago I was excoriated on this site for advocating braking with the left foot. I was condemned and told it was dangerous and inefficient.
Now I wonder how many will do so in the future. BTW, don't try it with a manual transmission.
I am getting tired of being right.
Jun 6, 2004 3:44:34 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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- Reply to: nberry
Re: Why Schumi is faster than Ruben
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
fritz said:
Thanks Ron, fascinating telemetry printouts!
I guess the conclusion has to be that any F1 driver who sees that and has not yet started practicing left-foot braking is just not taking his job seriously enough!
A month ago I was excoriated on this site for advocating braking with the left foot. I was condemned and told it was dangerous and inefficient.
Now I wonder how many will do so in the future. BTW, don't try it with a manual transmission.
I am getting tired of being right.
Nick,
Sorry to burst you bubble but, you were talking about an ordinary driver unsing lazy left-foot-brake/right-throttle drinving on a automatic PSM equipped SUV on ordinary street driving
and what Fritz is talking about is left foot braking on F1 cars to smooth the sudden transittion between full WOT throttle on a 900HP/600kg car and the strong bite of a F1's carbon brakes coupled with the sudden resistance of its close to 1.0 Cd drag when braking, and keep the car better balanced into the turn ... I don't think thats what you do Nick is it? 
so don't put any medals on your chest
I constantly use left foot braking when I ride in Go-Karts to help bring the rear around for some turns and not allow the revs to drop during the turn so as to come out faster too. Or in the sportbike to continue to shed off some speed into the turn and set the correct cornering speed into the apex with the front brake, and with the rear brake to settle the bike while in the corner more if need be decreasing load on the front, but you won't see me in the streets trying to gain fractions of a second though a corner by playing with that left-foot braking in the car which is also only helpful when at the absolute limit, like in a track, not at the street anyway
Re: Why Schumi is faster than Ruben
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
fritz said:
Thanks Ron, fascinating telemetry printouts!
I guess the conclusion has to be that any F1 driver who sees that and has not yet started practicing left-foot braking is just not taking his job seriously enough!
A month ago I was excoriated on this site for advocating braking with the left foot. I was condemned and told it was dangerous and inefficient.
Now I wonder how many will do so in the future. BTW, don't try it with a manual transmission.
I am getting tired of being right.
Nick,
a) You must tire very,very easily, and I suspect it will still be very, very seldom.
b) Left-foot braking in an F1 car totally customized to M. Schumacher's driving style will be a different matter to trying to do it in a road car with e-gas, tuned for optimum fuel consumption.
What I'm saying is, depending on electronic engine control software, the act of braking on a road car might also result in the amount of fuel injected or the throttle opening being cut back, because a normal driver would not be expected to operate both pedals at the same time. I'd be interested to know if the famous throttle surge problem is a result of this effect in some instances.
c) Please don't try to put yourself on the same plane as Michael Schumacher again! You made me laugh till the tears ran down my leg.
Re: Why Schumi is faster than Ruben
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
fritz said:
Thanks Ron, fascinating telemetry printouts!
I guess the conclusion has to be that any F1 driver who sees that and has not yet started practicing left-foot braking is just not taking his job seriously enough!
A month ago I was excoriated on this site for advocating braking with the left foot. I was condemned and told it was dangerous and inefficient.
Now I wonder how many will do so in the future. BTW, don't try it with a manual transmission.
I am getting tired of being right.
c) Please don't try to put yourself on the same plane as Michael Schumacher again! You made me laugh till the tears ran down my leg.
Hmnn I guess regular road cars do not get out of balance in Europe.. Fritz are you sure those are tears running down your leg?
Jun 6, 2004 5:00:02 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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- Reply to: fritz
Re: Why Schumi is faster than Ruben
Quote:
fritz said:
What I'm saying is, depending on electronic engine control software, the act of braking on a road car might also result in the amount of fuel injected or the throttle opening being cut back, because a normal driver would not be expected to operate both pedals at the same time.
You are correct, thats why I mentioned "PSM equipped SUV", because unlike schummi's F1 car, in PSM equipped cars, the PSM itself cuts throttle completely off when left foot braking i.e applying brake while already on throttle
But it still allows simultaneous brake-throttle in heel-toeing in the manual though, i.e applying throttle while on brakes already. It depends on the order on which throttle vs brake is applied wether it cuts the throttle off or not.
Jun 6, 2004 5:21:31 PM
- fritz
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: Why Schumi is faster than Ruben
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
But it still allows simultaneous brake-throttle in heel-toeing in the manual though, i.e applying throttle while on brakes already. It depends on the order on which throttle vs brake is applied wether it cuts the throttle off or not.
Interesting. I hadn't realised that, but I have only driven the Cayenne briefly, so did not have chance to get to know the car.
Re: Why Schumi is faster than Ruben
Quote:
nberry said:
Hmnn I guess regular road cars do not get out of balance in Europe.. Fritz are you sure those are tears running down your leg?
Nick, see Carlos's explanation of the potential downfalls. They are not necessarily dangerous, but could be at the limit. However, the extent to which you use it on the street in a Cayenne of all vehicles, is largely benign (boulevard cruising). This fact does limit the effectiveness somewhat of the technique. And yes, you can still left foot brake with a standard manual transmission, but not with frequency of a paddle shift transmission. Have you seen rally cars of days gone by?
FWIW, this article is nothing new, other than the detailed telemetry. We have known about Schumis advantage in left foot braking for quite some time and you actually see the sectors where he would be quicker than a right foot braker in other sections of Suzuka. The next series of turns has a few slight lifts as well. In fact, when Schumi was still at Benneton, there were teams that did not set up the pedals in a way condusive to left foot braking and may have changed once realizing the benefits.
Seems natural to me, as kart derived drivers should be used to it. Personally, I don't know of another way to drive a kart.
Re: Why Schumi is faster than Ruben
"The (1997 Sauber) C17 is a conventional car with the now normal paddle gearchange, and traditional (foot pedal) clutch control...
'I have been asking for two pedal control (with a paddle clutch) for a year and a half,' adds Herbert. 'I want to try it, just to see what it is like. You can't really left foot brake with the pedals as they are now, they are too close. If you listen to the cars going into Becketts, it sounds as if Michael Schumacher is taking it flat. In fact, he is left foot braking against full power. We have to lift there."
Interview with Johnny Herbert (Sauber Driver) Race Tech Magazine #19
'I have been asking for two pedal control (with a paddle clutch) for a year and a half,' adds Herbert. 'I want to try it, just to see what it is like. You can't really left foot brake with the pedals as they are now, they are too close. If you listen to the cars going into Becketts, it sounds as if Michael Schumacher is taking it flat. In fact, he is left foot braking against full power. We have to lift there."
Interview with Johnny Herbert (Sauber Driver) Race Tech Magazine #19
LFB
Thanks for the article Ron!
I have been left foot braking (LFB) for the past six months using it to turn understeer into neutral or oversteer on some sparsely travelled country back road corners. I learnt it from reading internet articles about rally drivers' driving techniques and since I have a front wheel drive car without any kind of PSM or electronic throttle, I can freely learn these techniques without having multiple electronic nannies spank me for experimenting. And having a manual gearbox does not hinder my LFB. I just place my left foot between the clutch and brake and pivot it between the two pedals. As I am downshifting, I use my left foot to double-clutch and my right foot to brake. As soon as the downshifting is done, I hand the brake over to the left foot and swing my foot back to the accelerator where both feet can balance throttle and brake in the corner to combat understeer and encourage a brief touch of oversteer so that the nose is pointing in the right direction and I can get back onto full throttle and begin setting up for the next corner.
Recently, I have taken up karting. I go ocassionally to the indoor 950 ft. track with my friend and brother and we work on getting faster and smoother. This article you have posted will help me refine my technique.
I have been left foot braking (LFB) for the past six months using it to turn understeer into neutral or oversteer on some sparsely travelled country back road corners. I learnt it from reading internet articles about rally drivers' driving techniques and since I have a front wheel drive car without any kind of PSM or electronic throttle, I can freely learn these techniques without having multiple electronic nannies spank me for experimenting. And having a manual gearbox does not hinder my LFB. I just place my left foot between the clutch and brake and pivot it between the two pedals. As I am downshifting, I use my left foot to double-clutch and my right foot to brake. As soon as the downshifting is done, I hand the brake over to the left foot and swing my foot back to the accelerator where both feet can balance throttle and brake in the corner to combat understeer and encourage a brief touch of oversteer so that the nose is pointing in the right direction and I can get back onto full throttle and begin setting up for the next corner.
Recently, I have taken up karting. I go ocassionally to the indoor 950 ft. track with my friend and brother and we work on getting faster and smoother. This article you have posted will help me refine my technique.
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