Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended - Page2

May 13, 2004 8:09:58 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002

Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

regarding the 997 appearance, isn't time to take a more critical look as to what Porsche is really offering you?

For more money, you get a body style of the 993 with VW looking headlights.

For more money, you get 5hp more than the 996.

For substantially more money, you get the sportier (isn't the 997 suppose to be sporty?) S model which has 30hp more than the base model.

For more money, you get a heavier car; the base carrera 55 pds heavier than the 996 and the S 61 pds heavier than the base model.

What is all the joy about?

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May 13, 2004 8:17:56 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Quote:
nberry said:
regarding the 997 appearance, isn't time to take a more critical look as to what Porsche is really offering you?

For more money, you get a body style of the 993 with VW looking headlights.

For more money, you get 5hp more than the 996.

For substantially more money, you get the sportier (isn't the 997 suppose to be sporty?) S model which has 30hp more than the base model.

For more money, you get a heavier car; the base carrera 55 pds heavier than the 996 and the S 61 pds heavier than the base model.

What is all the joy about?

Although I don't agree at all with what you said and I can see that the yellow 997 on one of the press pics really looks like a VW Beetle (which is just due to a photographer who didn't know what he's doing and apparently the same applies to the person who authorized this picture for publishing), I have a short answer for you: it outruns your "cheap" and sporty Ferrari 360 Modena anytime.

I might find the time to post some more real arguments too but right now, I want to go to bed after a busy day. Have to work a lot to be able to afford one of these lowpowerednotsosportymoreweightnojoy 997.

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May 13, 2004 8:45:26 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

For me its easy, the good thing is that the worthy sucessor of the 996C2 breaks the 8min barrier in the ring stock, and can do it with only 355HP. The bad part is that they called it the 997S now and marked it up Euro 10k using that excuse.

And when you think at what the competition gives you; its still cheaper, more reliable, more pratical, and out runs an italian F360. Its still faster, lighter, more fun, and everyday-as-driveable as a german M3. And out laps, is more sophisticated, and has better quality & engineering than an american corvette

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May 13, 2004 8:48:15 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Quote:
nberry said:
regarding the 997 appearance, isn't time to take a more critical look as to what Porsche is really offering you?

For more money, you get a body style of the 993 with VW looking headlights.

For more money, you get 5hp more than the 996.

For substantially more money, you get the sportier (isn't the 997 suppose to be sporty?) S model which has 30hp more than the base model.

For more money, you get a heavier car; the base carrera 55 pds heavier than the 996 and the S 61 pds heavier than the base model.

What is all the joy about?

Nick,

I guess it's all about being passionate about a brand and its history. Fortunately Porsche has not disappointed many owners so far.

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May 13, 2004 10:42:22 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Quote:
RC said:
Although I don't agree at all with what you said and I can see that the yellow 997 on one of the press pics really looks like a VW Beetle (which is just due to a photographer who didn't know what he's doing and apparently the same applies to the person who authorized this picture for publishing)

You mean this?

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May 13, 2004 10:43:59 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

However, the interior in this shot looks good

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May 13, 2004 10:46:30 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
You mean this?

Especially the yellow one, shot from the front.

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May 13, 2004 11:06:25 PM

Carrageous: Veteran; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 1197, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 5, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Yeah? Well, the first guy who mistakes the 997 for a VW needs to have his sperm count checked.

And if he makes that mistake when he's behind the wheel, he needs his IQ checked.

Other than the classic oval lights that should have been there all along, nothing 993ish about it. It's a great evolution of current and past themes and there's nothing wrong with that.

It's still the most performance and best feel for the money, maybe even regardless of the money. This may be the best driving, best looking 911 yet. Certainly the fastest and, as Porsche said a few years ago, it's "What we know so far."

Dain

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May 13, 2004 11:20:02 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Carlos I wish I had your computer skills.

Interesting that no one is denying my comments other than to say it is a great performer for the money. If that is the criteria, then there are a several cars which would be better suited in meeting your pedestrian needs.

What is at work here is nothing more than a illogical emotional attachment to a marque. If they put a Porsche badge on a Z350 you guys would gobble it up!:)

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May 13, 2004 11:26:59 PM

Byron: Senior; Loc: Costa Brava, Spain; Posts: 573, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 9, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

To confess that I have always founded certain similarity between the Carrera and the Wolkswagen.

Maybe this subjective, but I think that we are in front of two originally masterpieces of design.

The Carrera has evolved (according to my taste) very possitively, and the new Beattle (also under my point of view), though a good idea, went not in the best way it could. Still, there are resemblances, but this says nothing negative about the Carrera.

Absolutely they do NOT globally look the same. Affirming this sounds me demagogic, reductionist and simplist.

I'm shure 100% that the real Carrera will shock us all with it's pressence.

And, related with the present topic, I'd like to insist again in the figure thet Carlos remarked in his post: please seriously consider the Ring lap time. This is not a joke.

We are talking I guess to the potential of much faster figures in a normal road, compared to the ones that rally world winners did not so many years ago.....and, in this occasion talking about a street car (an in its first version), a Carrera 997.

...................as we all know, though very important, not everything to get perfomance has to do with power.

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May 13, 2004 11:50:10 PM

kfractal: Junior; $kfractal$; Loc: Cary, NC , United States; Posts: 78, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Quote:
nberry said:
What is at work here is nothing more than a illogical emotional attachment to a marque. If they put a Porsche badge on a Z350 you guys would gobble it up!:)

I must admit: I was lured into test driving my cars by the name and (hopefully) the real benefit of precision design and testing toward the goals of both reliability and performance.

However, with the advent of readily available computational power many companies can afford to deal in tolerances which would provide performance without causing unnecessary reliabilty problems.

I worry about Porsche because I'm sure there are passionate people there. I worry about them and other historically superior companies who are being challenged by their contemporaries. When a 30K (or less) Subaru WRX STi is just as exciting technologically and reliability-wise as a 996 (or even 997) the marquee taste had better be undeniable. (Please no flames... I realize this is probably an over generalization.)

In the end... all companies are products of the people who put them together. And the world is moving on... there are lots of smart people about. Advantages of heritage, once real are no longer. In such an environment "marketing" and "efficiency of business" must take over... e.g. brand management, etc.

So let us change our expectations to "Porsche will at all times at least produce cars comparable to their competitors." And that to do so will be just fine. The problem becomes... is their marketing really moving in the correct direction? Does their message stir the soul? At least Ferrari race their cars as a factory effort. That's righteous. Porsche resting on their laurels over time will become more and more of a crutch that they must toss.

Now all that said... and I admit it must sound negative... I have found no greater satisfaction driving than the two Porsches I have owned... Boxster S (briefly) and 996C2. My own fickleness willing I will own my 996 until it rots. It is all the car I can imagine wanting as a daily driver... and for the few track days I hope to attend over my lifetime. Cars at this price point are for me once (or hopefully maybe twice) in a lifetime purchases...

All IMHO of course!

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May 14, 2004 3:03:44 PM

Stephen: Co-Pilot; Loc: Dallas, TX; Posts: 200, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 30, 2003; Reply to: kfractal

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

regarding the 997 appearance, isn't time to take a more critical look as to what Porsche is really offering you?

The same could and should be asked of your beloved Ferrari. I mean really, what do you get from Ferrari for so much MORE money? A car that you can't drive more than a few thousand miles a year or you'll lose your shirt?

For more money, you get a body style of the 993 with VW looking headlights.

It seems as though a lot of people liked the style of the 993, as evidenced by the warm welcome the official photos have received. As for the VW headlights, even Ferrari had round lenses at one time; just because they chose to eschew that piece of tradition dosn't mean Porsche must keep in step with them.

For more money, you get 5hp more than the 996.

It looks to be about $700 more in the US. The HP increase should be seen as incidental at this point. Porsche should be noticed for not gouging its clients with each model year like many lesser manufacturers do.

For substantially more money, you get the sportier (isn't the 997 suppose to be sporty?) S model which has 30hp more than the base model.

The X51 powerkit is about $13-$14K and only gives an additional 25HP. The S should only be about $10K more and has the PASM.

For more money, you get a heavier car; the base carrera 55 pds heavier than the 996 and the S 61 pds heavier than the base model.

As has already been pointed out - the performance does not get worse. It can, in fact, be BETTER.

What is all the joy about?

Because beauty is in the eye of the beholder, we all see something special and unique in the new 911. Ferrari holds no such allure FOR me. That is probably why you don't see me on the other boards, trying to piss on somebody else's parade.

We get it Nick, you don't much care for Porsche.

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May 14, 2004 4:17:11 PM

Luke R: Junior; Loc: Kent, UK; Posts: 79, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2004; Reply to: Stephen

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Well said that man!

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May 14, 2004 4:44:21 PM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: Carrageous

Nick is right

Quote:
Carrageous said:
Yeah? Well, the first guy who mistakes the 997 for a VW needs to have his sperm count checked.

Sorry guys but Nick is 100% right. The basic car is, basically, boring. Who among us would ever consider buying this car? I for one would use the introduction of the 997 as an opportunity to find an interesting version of the 996 at a cheaper price. The only doubt I have as to what Nick says is the PSM improvements and how real that is is a question that will need to wait until one of us is able to really put it to the test.

On the other hand, this is a model that PAG will sell a lot of. The buyers don't give a hoot about performance. All that they want is to be seen driving the new Porsche 911 (not 997) and to feel like they are really driving a 911. It is the [****] extender of the PAG line. It will improve sperm counts for balding men and certainly is a better solution than Viagra.

And of course, this is the car that will make PAG rich so that they can make the cars that you and I want. So I for one, wish PAG lots of luck with their new model!

Stephen

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May 14, 2004 7:16:57 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: Nick is right

I've owned four successive generations of 911s , each more technically interesting and stylistically more modern. The 997 is pandering to the " die hard air-cooled " crowd ,from the retro headlights to the linear dash interior.
My next car may be a Ferrari V8 . I like their idea of advancing engineering and styling into the 21st century with just a few references from DIFFERENT past models . Imagine if the next 420 looked like Tom Sellick's Magnum PI 308 from 1982 and all the current Modena owners were beside themselves with excitement - NOT.

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May 14, 2004 7:32:47 PM

John SF 2005 997 S: Senior; Loc: San Francisco CA USA; Posts: 530, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2004; Reply to: MKW

The 996 was the last REAL Porsche !!!!

Come on people - it's a bunch of flat pictures right now. It takes some getting used to. When it's at your local dealer - I'm sure it'll look better in person and everyone will want one. Ferrari's are SO overpriced ! What other sports car can you own that you can change your own oil, brakes etc on in about 30 min ?!?! Porsche Rules...

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May 14, 2004 8:00:00 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Stephen

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Why is it that people on this board want to attack Ferrari? I have NEVER compared my Ferrari to Porsche. Because I own one, is attacking Ferrari an appropriate response to the points I raised?

Furthermore, I am not pissing on someone else's parade. I fault Ferrari as much as I fault Porsche. Car enthusiast have forever argued the merits of new models. Someone explain to me why Porsche owners are SO DAMNED DEFENSIVE!

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May 14, 2004 8:09:43 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Nick,

They are "attacking" Ferrari no more that you are "attacking" Porsche, and they are using the Ferarri example because you owning one can relate to that example well, and lastly, defensive? its a Porsche forum!

most of the opinions are form people who identify with Porsche and will agree with Porsche rather than disagree

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May 14, 2004 10:46:19 PM

mcdelaug: Expert; Loc: Fort Worth, Texas , United States; Posts: 1919, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 3, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Hi everyone,
I joined rennteam a few weeks ago while looking for info about the 997. This is my first post, so please forgive any mistakes I make.

I have never owned a Porsche, but have dreamed of owning one since I was about 15. Now that I've advanced to the point in my career where this can become reality, I hope to provide my personal take on the questions nberry brought up at the beginning of this thread.

>>regarding the 997 appearance, isn't time to take a more critical look as to what Porsche is really offering you?

Absolutely, but I apply this type of consideration to most all decisions I make where a significant amount of time or money are involved, a new car being no exception.

>>For more money, you get a body style of the 993 with VW looking headlights.

I see this as a matter of individual taste. Some people will like the 997 more, some less. Almost none of us has seen it in person; I certainly hven't. But I like what I see in the photos, especially the improved interior. As for the 997 looking like the Beetle, well, I have yet to confuse these two cars, even in photos, as (in my opinion) the 997 will offer a large number of audial and visual cues (fender shape, exhaust sound, etc) that make it obvious that it is not a VW product.

>>For more money, you get 5hp more than the 996.

It is clear that many people were hoping for a significant performance increase in the 996's replacement. What they were offered in the base model 997 is a 5hp increase that will probably be undetectable from the driver's seat, or perhaps even in objective performance testing. But let's look at the decision Porsche is asking me to make as a prospective buyer: Order the 996C2 now, or the 997C2 in a few months (I currently live in Houston, Texas). For a $700 price increase the 997 offers me 18" Carrera II wheels (perhaps my favorite design), standard PSM (not PASM), and a much improved interior (IMHO) which appears to include PCM. For me, this makes the 997 a better deal, as the theoretical performance appears to be very similar between the 997C2 and 996C2. If you take into account the 30% decline in the US$ against the euro over the past 2 years, and inflation in general, the $700 seems like a good deal.

>>For substantially more money, you get the sportier (isn't the 997 suppose to be sporty?) S model which has 30hp more than the base model.

I think the fair comparison here would be 997S against the 996 with the 345hp power pack. The 997S offers more hp than the power pack 996, and throws in PASM, xenon head lamps, 19" wheels, aluminum dash guages, 4 port exhaust tips and PCM all for about $4K less. This too seems like a good deal to me. Would everyone prefer that the 997S be available for the 997's price? Well of course, but when considered objectively, the 997 and 997S appear to be a better value than the comparable models they replace (again, IMHO).

>>For more money, you get a heavier car; the base carrera 55 pds heavier than the 996 and the S 61 pds heavier than the base model.

This part does concern me. I think that maitaining low weight is a critical philosophical point that should not be compromised by Porsche. I hope that future models of their cars will incorporate more lightweight components to improve power to weight ratio, with Porsche understanding that their core customers appreciate that there is more to a sportscar than simply hp and torque numbers.

Anyway, these are just my personal opinions about the 997 as a 996 replacement. I hope to order a 997 cab when they are available next year. The wife has given me the green light, and as many of are probably aware, that is almost always the hardest part of the process!

Thanks, and I have thoroughly enjoyed lurking for the past few weeks!

mcdelaug

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May 15, 2004 12:48:54 AM

lev: Pilot; Loc: Canada, Toronto; Posts: 397, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 15, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

I guess there are two categories of Porsche buyers - one which buys Porsche because of the image, status (not wealthy necessary but being related to what considered being a good driver, love of speed etc.) and the other just doesn't care because we wan to drive and be driven :-)

Show me one Ferrari driver who buys the car because he can take it to the track, because it challenges him and teaches him to drive correctly on streets and on the track, because it has its own character that you got to know, understand and master :-) Common Ferrari is a sexy car, and I would love to have Spider in my garage after I have GT2, GT3 and probably GT too :-) but I would keep it as an exotic car to impress but not to be impressed :-)

997, 996, 993 there are a lot of differences between them and similarities. Whats the heck, I tried to drive 1966 912 today (thinking to add it as collection car to my garage, love it after saw Robert Redford driving Spy Games movie) and the car was in perfect condition but was awful to drive. Made me think how my 996TT would feel for me 30 years from now :-)

Anyway the point is the 997 is a clear step forward in terms of true Porsche nature/character. And that what counts!

The only problem I see with 997 that I have to wait two years to have it :-(

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May 15, 2004 2:11:03 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: mcdelaug

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Quote:
mcdelaug said:
Hi everyone,
I joined rennteam a few weeks ago while looking for info about the 997. This is my first post, so please forgive any mistakes I make.

I]

Your first post is excellent. Welcome

You outline cogent arguments why the 997 suits your needs over prior models. If that makes you happy go for it.

However, here is a suggestion which in some ways rebuts your points regarding the 997. Other than the Beattle like front end, the 997 isn't much different from the 996. Since this is your first Porsche and you want a Cab, I would suggest you buy a used C4S Cab. which will be substantially discounted once the 997 is introduced. You save a ton of money and get essentially the same or better car. Your wife will love you more for it.

Finally, there is one thing you need to keep in mind with Porsche cars. They depreciate fast. Every one of us who have owned Porsches have literally been ravaged with the value of our cars. It is the price we pay for chasing this marque.

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May 18, 2004 12:06:23 AM

mason: Newbie; Loc: NOVA , United States; Posts: 35, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 30, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

I wonder If porsche pays any homage to the figures : horsepower , weight , 0- 60 etc . It seems to me that all of their "new " models only improve on what they were doing before , not what the marketing, second thinkers , critics or car nuts( me) might have wanted.
thus the Nurburgring(?) lap times for the S that have improved so...

So at first blush Nick may be right .. Poo Poo on porsche for bad figures .. But I'm going to wait for the " in skin " experience . This is where the depth ,that is porsche , has always been provided that I can't seem to find in other cars with those BIG figures....

Just thoughts ......my silly brain.......

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May 18, 2004 12:21:44 AM

Byron: Senior; Loc: Costa Brava, Spain; Posts: 573, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 9, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

"Finally, there is one thing you need to keep in mind with Porsche cars. They depreciate fast. Every one of us who have owned Porsches have literally been ravaged with the value of our cars. It is the price we pay for chasing this marque."

Maybe, but if you are thinking in terms of a money investment, forget about a car. Regadless Porsche or not. Other ways of investing money are much more interesting.

The ones we put money in a Porsche, we invest in our life, not expecting profit or "resale value" (Or, at least. this is not the principal consideration)

Even considering such a value Have you considered the personal value of driving a Carrera?

If only money concerns are involved, a car is allways a bad idea.....but I think that in this short life, there are more important things than money or "rational" decisions.

I'm 43 and I have not a single second to waste (the same as when I was 23)...so, I care nothing about depreciation of a Carrera: every second driving it is a deep and unmachable expirience.

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May 18, 2004 12:23:58 AM

lev: Pilot; Loc: Canada, Toronto; Posts: 397, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 15, 2004; Reply to: mason

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Mason,

So if you expect Porsche to improve figures each new model generation, when you expect 0-60 under 1 second?

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May 18, 2004 12:51:45 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Byron

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Quote:
Byron said:
"Finally, there is one thing you need to keep in mind with Porsche cars. They depreciate fast. Every one of us who have owned Porsches have literally been ravaged with the value of our cars. It is the price we pay for chasing this marque."

Byron - You've been buying the wrong models of Porsche. I bought my 73 911S for $16k and sold it for $27k four years later. Also, it's hard to lose alot of money on a nice 993.

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May 18, 2004 12:58:18 AM

Byron: Senior; Loc: Costa Brava, Spain; Posts: 573, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 9, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Grant,

Those words where not mine (They are under brakets). They where from a previous message. My post was trying to say the opposite.

Sorry if I went wrong in the way of exposing the idea.

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May 18, 2004 4:37:22 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Byron

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Quote:
Byron said:
Grant,

Those words where not mine (They are under brakets). They where from a previous message. My post was trying to say the opposite.

Sorry if I went wrong in the way of exposing the idea.

Sorry, Byron! I misunderstood...

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May 18, 2004 4:27:45 PM

Mr.RS: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 112, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 5, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

"Finally, there is one thing you need to keep in mind with Porsche cars. They depreciate fast. Every one of us who have owned Porsches have literally been ravaged with the value of our cars. It is the price we pay for chasing this marque."

Buy a GT3 and your worries of depreciation decrease significantly.

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May 18, 2004 4:39:10 PM

Mike: Co-Pilot; Loc: CT/NY, USA; Posts: 236, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 12, 2003; Reply to: Mr.RS

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Even if the 997 does look like a VW New Beetle, in the end Porsche designed the originals.

So kudos to both design teams in reviving the original designs which look similar only because the were designed by the same man, Dr. Ing. hc F. Porsche himself!

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May 19, 2004 12:26:32 AM

mason: Newbie; Loc: NOVA , United States; Posts: 35, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 30, 2003; Reply to: lev

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Lev :

yes, exactly my point !

Seriously though, I think you missed my drift.

What I'm saying is that porsche , historically , has only been challenged by itself and its previouse generation of cars. This is only my opinion , but I also think that porsche is wise in not jumping on the horsepower bandwagon ,instead it focuses on the entire car and the driving experience . In my mind this is a much better philosophy than just going after the big numbers .

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Porsche	Collected my 997 GTS today	10/19/23 7:06 PM CGX car nut	265113	812
Lambo	Huracán EVO STO	7/30/23 6:59 PM mcdelaug	243783	346
Lotus	Lotus Emira	6/25/23 2:53 PM Enmanuel	238461	101
Others	Corvette C8	10/16/23 3:24 PM Enmanuel	222103	488
Others	Gordon Murray - T.50	11/22/23 10:27 AM mcdelaug	172945	387
Porsche	Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS	6/11/23 5:13 PM CGX car nut	144822	144
BMW M	2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now	12/29/23 9:04 AM RC	120935	303
Motor Sp.	2023 Formula One	12/19/23 5:38 AM Whoopsy	111303	685
Porsche	2022 992 Safari Model	3/7/24 4:22 PM Whoopsy	85458	239
AMG	Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758	2/23/24 10:03 PM blueflame	75678	297
Porsche	992 GT3 RS	3/3/24 7:22 PM Whoopsy	54721	314
Motor Sp.	Porsche 963	5/13/24 3:18 PM Grant	26170	246
Ferrari	Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6)	1/21/24 4:29 PM GT-Boy	21631	103
BMW M	2022 BMW M5 CS	4/8/24 1:43 PM Ferdie	20054	140
AMG	G63 sold out	9/15/23 7:38 PM Nico997	16996	120
AMG	[2022] Mercedes-AMG SL	4/23/24 1:24 PM RC	14220	225
Motor Sp.	24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018	5/25/23 10:42 PM Grant	11437	55
Porsche	Porsche Mission X Hypercar	12/3/23 8:52 AM 996FourEss	11184	63

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Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Nick is right

Re: Nick is right

The 996 was the last REAL Porsche !!!!

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

Re: Now that all the hoopla and accolades have been extended

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