Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Form follows function - Page1

Mar 9, 2007 8:42:41 PM

AAHTT: Senior; Loc: san diego , United States; Posts: 654, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 21, 2006; Reply to: Nick_Athens

Re: Does 997Turbo disappoint you ?

Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
So many days I read and I dont want to get into this conversation.
The car is Souless. You can take a turn with too many kms with not much efford or driving skills. You dont need to be a good driver. It is too easy. The best car for everyday, for a man with children around 40-50 years old.. A very fast SL (much better though) No feeling..
you can go with 270km and you can talk with your girlfriend!! On the limit it is dangerous though without the PSM. Extremely stable in long open turns but not so good in short turns.. Maybe it will become an other car if someone modifies it with 600hp and sound..
I Miss My 996 GT3

How can you even compare a 997TT TIP to a 996 GT3? it sounds like you got the wrong transmission. In my very biased opinion, The lack of soul is mainly due to that 5 speed automatic

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Mar 9, 2007 9:25:06 PM

Nick_Athens: Senior; Loc: Greece , Greece; Posts: 710, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2004; Reply to: AAHTT

Re: Does 997Turbo disappoint you ?

I did it on purpose! I want to hold this car only a couple of months in order to change it with the GT2. Here in Greece unfortunately 90% of 997turbos are tiptronics.. So Porsche told me that if I want to trade this car for a GT2 it is much better to buy it Tiptronic...

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Mar 10, 2007 3:31:34 AM

TT Surgeon: Senior; Loc: Long Island, NY , United States; Posts: 783, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: silverrules

Re: Does 997Turbo disappoint you ?

I would never flash the ECU, car becomes warranty-less and a hard resale. I think it is a huge mistake on a 130k+ car imo. Exhaust is potentially another story.

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Mar 10, 2007 3:43:40 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 16151, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: Does 997Turbo disappoint you ?

Quote:
nberry said:
My issue has always been with the company and not the car. They are well engineered though the concept of function over form has led to an ossification of the car.

Does that mean if I removed all the Porsche badges on a 997 Turbo I can sell you a generic 'whitebox' 997 Turbo?

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Mar 10, 2007 9:26:17 AM

W211: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 410, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: Whoopsy

Form follows function

I certainly pick the Bauhaus form follows function school of philosophy over pretentious ornamentation anyday.

For me, a car is to be judged by its engineering merits, not pointless decorations such as challenger grill, fender badges, or painted brake calipers.

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Mar 10, 2007 12:29:56 PM

997GT3RS: Senior; Loc: Germany; Posts: 637, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: Nick_Athens

Re: Does 997Turbo disappoint you ?

Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
I did it on purpose! I want to hold this car only a couple of months in order to change it with the GT2. Here in Greece unfortunately 90% of 997turbos are tiptronics.. So Porsche told me that if I want to trade this car for a GT2 it is much better to buy it Tiptronic...

Nick_Athens,

I want to know how was your 430 compared with the TT in stright line performance and handling. I know they are very different car, but just want to see your comments.

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Mar 10, 2007 2:00:29 PM

bluelines: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Argovia , Switzerland; Posts: 11655, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 29, 2005; Reply to: W211

Re: Form follows function

Quote:
W211 said:
For me, a car is to be judged by its engineering merits, not pointless decorations such as challenger grill, fender badges, or painted brake calipers.

Brilliant!

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Mar 10, 2007 5:57:25 PM

Nick_Athens: Senior; Loc: Greece , Greece; Posts: 710, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2004; Reply to: 997GT3RS

Re: Does 997Turbo disappoint you ?

Quote:
997GT3RS said:
Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
I did it on purpose! I want to hold this car only a couple of months in order to change it with the GT2. Here in Greece unfortunately 90% of 997turbos are tiptronics.. So Porsche told me that if I want to trade this car for a GT2 it is much better to buy it Tiptronic...

Nick_Athens,

I want to know how was your 430 compared with the TT in stright line performance and handling. I know they are very different car, but just want to see your comments.

Performance is not always a matter of test.
For me it is the feeling you take when you drive a car.

You cant compare these two cars. It is totaly different cars.. (one is 4x4turbo the other one is Rwd with no turbo)One is a very stable and fast car in bad quantity roads or in rain or even in snow.. (997tt)
The other is like a racing car which when you drive it you feel that you are in a race. (You can go with 250km/h with the 997tt and drive with one hand. In Ferrari you cant)
One is an everyday car the other is not.
Ferrari is like taking your dose when you are addicted.. In 997tt you can make mistakes in Ferrari no..
You can go anywhere with a 997tt (cinema,shopping) with Ferrari no..
997tt is better in handling in long turns, Ferrari on the other hand is better in short turns.

It depends what you are searching for, from a car.

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Mar 10, 2007 6:17:47 PM

997GT3RS: Senior; Loc: Germany; Posts: 637, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: Nick_Athens

Re: Does 997Turbo disappoint you ?

Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
Quote:
997GT3RS said:
Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
I did it on purpose! I want to hold this car only a couple of months in order to change it with the GT2. Here in Greece unfortunately 90% of 997turbos are tiptronics.. So Porsche told me that if I want to trade this car for a GT2 it is much better to buy it Tiptronic...

Nick_Athens,

I want to know how was your 430 compared with the TT in stright line performance and handling. I know they are very different car, but just want to see your comments.

Performance is not always a matter of test.
For me it is the feeling you take when you drive a car.

You cant compare these two cars. It is totaly different cars.. (one is 4x4turbo the other one is Rwd with no turbo)One is a very stable and fast car in bad quantity roads or in rain or even in snow.. (997tt)
The other is like a racing car which when you drive it you feel that you are in a race. (You can go with 250km/h with the 997tt and drive with one hand. In Ferrari you cant)
One is an everyday car the other is not.
Ferrari is like taking your dose when you are addicted.. In 997tt you can make mistakes in Ferrari no..
You can go anywhere with a 997tt (cinema,shopping) with Ferrari no..
997tt is better in handling in long turns, Ferrari on the other hand is better in short turns.

It depends what you are searching for, from a car.

I have driven a F599 and my feeling is very comfortable and the handling is sharp for a car like this big, but it is not sporty at all and don't have the racing feel even in RACE mode. Maybe the F430 is much more sporty than the F599.

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Mar 10, 2007 6:55:58 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: W211

Re: Form follows function

Quote:
W211 said:
I certainly pick the Bauhaus form follows function school of philosophy over pretentious ornamentation anyday.

For me, a car is to be judged by its engineering merits, not pointless decorations such as challenger grill, fender badges, or painted brake calipers.

Exfugginzactly!

What's nice is when the form of the functional can turn out to be beautiful with seemingly zero effort. As in these Ruf wheels. I say they are more "Porsche" than Porsche.

I wish Porschephiles spent more time studying the Bauhaus before ordering their cars. I mean it's totally German; why not understand what you're dealing with, especially when you're blowing us$80-100K? If you study it you can determine if the car is for you.

I feel sorry for Porsche having to satisfy us 'mericans with a penchant for muscle car aesthetics and a side order of decorative embellishments.

Ruf wheel: one example of a Bauhaus marriage of perfect beautiful functional form:

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Mar 10, 2007 7:06:42 PM

Texas911: Senior; Loc: Houston, Texas - USA; Posts: 766, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2003; Reply to: MMD

Re: Form follows function

Whatever. I always hear how Ferrari design their cars with emotion. It certainly isn't form over function. A Ferrari is a highly highly styled car, the 911 is more form follows function as its form is a direct consequence of having to hold 4 seats and the philosophy of having a rear engine.

BTW, the Bauhuas movemet was kicked out of Germany before WWII and most landed in the good old USA.

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Mar 10, 2007 7:12:17 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: Texas911

Re: Form follows function

Quote:
Texas911 said:
Whatever. I always hear how Ferrari design their cars with emotion. It certainly isn't form over function. A Ferrari is a highly highly styled car, the 911 is more form follows function as its form is a direct consequence of having to hold 4 seats and the philosophy of having a rear engine.

BTW, the Bauhuas movemet was kicked out of Germany before WWII and most landed in the good old USA.

For god's sake the Bauhaus movement had enough time to develop its most impressive works of art before WW2 broke out. Bauhaus rules

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Mar 10, 2007 8:58:54 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Form follows function

The nice thing about the ethos of the BH is that you could approach the design of a spaghetti strainer with the same aesthetic concern you'd have for a sports car.

Also, "Fine art" (e.g. Mona Lisa or Rembrandt) and utility were brought closer; there was a utopian vision that all people at all levels of society could share in an enriched sense of aesthetics in their daily lives thru their exerience of everyday objects.

As far as our cars are concerned the teardrop shape of a polished river rock and the original 911s were total BH.

Adding BS like vents, wings, slats, tires bigger than necessary, is a fact of life these days. It's the result of a lack of emphasis on the arts in education. The BH had that covered too. Science and math were just as impt as cultural studies and aesthetics.

We definitely failed to incorporate anything of the brilliance the BH ideaology had to offer to our society (in USA and Europe); it sounds really pitiful, almost ridiculous, to go on and say: try not to do it as a guy who's purchasing a quintessentially _German_ car; one which was originally married to BH ideals.

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Mar 10, 2007 10:52:03 PM

Texas911: Senior; Loc: Houston, Texas - USA; Posts: 766, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2003; Reply to: MMD

Re: Form follows function

I'm an architect and I can tell you that Bauhaus is alive and well, but it, like any movement, has evolved. I won't go into here, you can research it on the internet, but you see the effects of Bauhaus in lots of things. It was about using new technology for the masses. Today, new technology is in the form of electronics. You add them up and see what is happening today.

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Mar 11, 2007 12:49:16 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Nick_Athens

Re: Does 997Turbo disappoint you ?

Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
Quote:
997GT3RS said:
Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
I did it on purpose! I want to hold this car only a couple of months in order to change it with the GT2. Here in Greece unfortunately 90% of 997turbos are tiptronics.. So Porsche told me that if I want to trade this car for a GT2 it is much better to buy it Tiptronic...

Nick_Athens,

I want to know how was your 430 compared with the TT in stright line performance and handling. I know they are very different car, but just want to see your comments.

Performance is not always a matter of test.
For me it is the feeling you take when you drive a car.

You cant compare these two cars. It is totaly different cars.. (one is 4x4turbo the other one is Rwd with no turbo)One is a very stable and fast car in bad quantity roads or in rain or even in snow.. (997tt)
The other is like a racing car which when you drive it you feel that you are in a race. (You can go with 250km/h with the 997tt and drive with one hand. In Ferrari you cant)
One is an everyday car the other is not.
Ferrari is like taking your dose when you are addicted.. In 997tt you can make mistakes in Ferrari no..
You can go anywhere with a 997tt (cinema,shopping) with Ferrari no..
997tt is better in handling in long turns, Ferrari on the other hand is better in short turns.

It depends what you are searching for, from a car.

Nick, well stated. Your point about what you are looking for in a car determines which is the better car is spot on.

Like you, I feel that if I want a high performance sport car for everyday use like going to work and running errands the 997TT is hard to beat. The Ferrari fulfills a different purpose and does so brillantly.

I would buy a TT if it made sense to me to drive a high performance sport car for daily activities. It does not. I prefer more functional transportation like a SUV and Mini to accomplish my day in and day out functions.

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Mar 11, 2007 4:55:28 AM

W211: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 410, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: MMD

Hangbag on wheels

Quote:
MMD said:
I wish Porschephiles spent more time studying the Bauhaus before ordering their cars. I mean it's totally German; why not understand what you're dealing with, especially when you're blowing us$80-100K? If you study it you can determine if the car is for you.

I feel sorry for Porsche having to satisfy us 'mericans with a penchant for muscle car aesthetics and a side order of decorative embellishments.

I see a growing trend of consumers simply buying cars to make a fashion statement. As a result of this movement, even many German car designers choose style over utility.

Here comes BMW's Flame Surfacing: 'gives body surfaces the freedom to turn in on themselves, lending a high degree of visual tension...a controlled tension whose energy pervades the entire visual image without in any way diminishing the vehicle's overall harmony.'

Are we talking about yoga, tai-chi, or automotive engineering?

Instead of sticking true to the Form Follows Function philosophy, designers rather choose a pseudo-Bauhaus design, look at the fake screws at the fuel cap on the Audi TT. Or the painted plastic 'industrial raw look' you see everywhere.

Instead of ensuring the car interface being as user-friendly as possible, high-style is preferred. Goodbye ergonomics, hello high-tech 'look'. Goodbye buttons, hello iDrive.

And now, one can even order from Audi, optional LED lights framing the engine bay on their R8.

It's the revival of the gold plated 80s my friends. I'm glad Porsche is sticking to its utilitarian engineering comes first spirit.

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Mar 11, 2007 5:13:11 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: W211

Re: Hangbag on wheels

Quote:
W211 said:

Here comes BMW's Flame Surfacing: 'gives body surfaces the freedom to turn in on themselves, lending a high degree of visual tension...a controlled tension whose energy pervades the entire visual image without in any way diminishing the vehicle's overall harmony.'

Are we talking about yoga, tai-chi, or automotive engineering?

LOL. Amazing!

The "overall harmony" in the new BMWs is usually me straining to make myself like them while my stomach strains to avoid nausea.

Yeah, fake screws on a Audi gas cap would make me soil my pants if I happened to see it by chance. Thanks for the warning. Whatta joke!

Thanks for the idea-filled post.

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Mar 14, 2007 9:16:15 PM

Charlie997tt: Newbie; Loc: Bremerton WA USA; Posts: 18, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Hangbag on wheels

The styling is starting to bug me too. The 997 is a welcome step back toward the 993, however not far enough. I can roll my 993s onto a ferry at low tide without scraping it's face off. I can wash them without special attention to a dozen new holes, function or otherwise. I can hit a gas pedal during heel/toe and feel it's connected to a real throttle cable, not an egas numbing filter. And I always sit closer in an intimate cabin, next to my smallish girlfriend who fits perfectly into a smallish sport seat.

I'm all for progress, but after the 993, something was lost, as everything improved. Perhaps it was inevitable.

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Mar 14, 2007 9:51:52 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Charlie997tt

Re: Hangbag on wheels

Quote:
Charlie997tt said:
The styling is starting to bug me too. The 997 is a welcome step back toward the 993, however not far enough. I can roll my 993s onto a ferry at low tide without scraping it's face off. I can wash them without special attention to a dozen new holes, function or otherwise. I can hit a gas pedal during heel/toe and feel it's connected to a real throttle cable, not an egas numbing filter. And I always sit closer in an intimate cabin, next to my smallish girlfriend who fits perfectly into a smallish sport seat.

I'm all for progress, but after the 993, something was lost, as everything improved. Perhaps it was inevitable.

Charlie,

You should buy a Noble M400.

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Mar 14, 2007 11:59:21 PM

Charlie997tt: Newbie; Loc: Bremerton WA USA; Posts: 18, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2006; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Hangbag on wheels

I pushed my 997tt deposit forward, waiting for pdk. Now the R8 is out. Heck, there are several stinking fast, easy to drive Audis now. This next choice of a car is very hard. Speed is no longer the issue - there are SO many incredibly capable cars. For me, more and more it's down to feel, reliability, useability - areas that have been traditionally Porsche strong points, but their advanatage seems to be fading as the cars get heavier and the passion is dialed out.

I tracked and upgraded, then upgraded and tracked, my 993 turbo to the point where it's pretty insane and takes a lot of brains to drive safely - it's still a blast, but I can't keep up with it anymore (getting too old and cautious maybe....). I like the new driving aids, such as PSM. Wish I had it on MY turbo.

The Noble is a bit too extreme for me. And probably not "comfortable" enough.

Heck, I'm just whining cuz the perfect car for me doesn't seem to exist. A 350 hp Cayman would be my perfect car, I suspect. Maybe they'll make an expensive special edition along that line, or at least hint at one, before PDK hits the turbo.

Here's hoping anyway....

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Re: Does 997Turbo disappoint you ?

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Form follows function

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