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May 11, 2004 9:01:29 PM
- ADias
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: Why?
Quote:
carlos fromspain said: I guess its a matter of use, I regularly drive my 996 at 180km/h averages in the highway and I find myself b/w 5th and 6th gear at WOT constantly with 300HP falling clearly short. ...
So you are right about lusting the turbo, but just like RC, I will have to settle for the 997S...
You say 180Km/h (112MPH) average. Unless your speed variance is large, it surprises me that you need to shift down to 5th... I drive routinely within a range of 180-210Km/h here out West (Nevada/Arizona) and have no lack of power.
I see a lot of comparing to the E55, SL55, etc. I note that those engines are turbos, therefore any comparison must be to the 911 Turbo - and the price is about the same.
I appreciate the exchange of ideas and know where you stand - I know you are a true P-nut. BTW, I love Galicia Vigo/La Coruna/Santiago - Saludos!
May 11, 2004 9:11:58 PM
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Carrageous
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Why?
Quote:
carlosfromspain said:
I find myself b/w 5th and 6th gear at WOT constantly with 300HP falling clearly short.
Carlos, that means you're between 130 and 160 mph ( 210 and 260 kph) in those gears. What part of that are you not finding fast enough?
Are you talking about accelleration at the top of the final gearing? I don't understand what you're saying.
Dain
May 11, 2004 9:27:17 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Why?
Quote:
ADias said:
You say 180Km/h (112MPH) average. Unless your speed variance is large, it surprises me that you need to shift down to 5th... I drive routinely within a range of 180-210Km/h here out West (Nevada/Arizona) and have no lack of power.
I guess its because this is a fairly mountanous area and the are little straights in the highway and lots of high speed curves chained to one another, so you constantly have to vary the speed, and at those speed acceleration with 300HP is quite limited, sometimes you have to downshift to 5th for some curves otherwise climbing back up in 6th is just too exasperating with 300HP. Also we may have more traffic than in the open roads of arizona, that bring you down to 120-140 constantly so you have to WOT again to climb up to speed. And lastly I also drive a hi-sport sportbike so I may be really spoiled as to acceleration at those speeds as well
Quote:
ADias said:
I see a lot of comparing to the E55, SL55, etc. I note that those engines are turbos, therefore any comparison must be to the 911 Turbo - and the price is about the same.
Thats true, but its closet competitors have been the M3 here and corvette there, not MB, and the next vette and M3 get both n/a 400HP.
Quote:
ADias said:
BTW, I love Galicia Vigo/La Coruna/Santiago - Saludos!
I'm from Vigo!, so if you ever pass by 
Re: Why?
Quote:
ADias said:
... it surprises me that you need to shift down to 5th... I drive routinely within a range of 180-210Km/h here out West (Nevada/Arizona) and have no lack of power.
I don't think you can compare Nevada with Europe in this respect.
I guess Carlos is talking about instances where he is driving at 180-210 km/h, and has to shift down to quickly get past cars travelling at 160-190 km/h, which are in turn dodging around other slower-moving cars in the right-hand lanes.
A common scenario on unrestricted German Autobahns.
But in Spain,Carlos?
May 11, 2004 9:33:11 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Why?
Quote:
Carrageous said:
Quote:
carlosfromspain said:
I find myself b/w 5th and 6th gear at WOT constantly with 300HP falling clearly short.
Carlos, that means you're between 130 and 160 mph ( 210 and 260 kph) in those gears. What part of that are you not finding fast enough?
I don't understand what you're saying.
Dain
I don't mean the top speed, its the accelerating at wide open throttle in 5th and 6th gear that is slow climbing revs IMO. I don't mean cruising confortable at a constant speed, thats OK, I mean driving sportly and having to slow down for left lane hoggers and curves constantly and trying to climb back up again that is sloooow. I really miss more HP there, and that makes up most of my driving.
May 11, 2004 9:45:50 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Why?
Quote:
fritz said:
A common scenario on unrestricted German Autobahns.
But in Spain,Carlos?
Thats exactly it
But... did I say Spain? ... errrr... no... thats ilegal here... I mean autobahn.... yeah... thats it... the autobahn!... not Spain... never...
seriously, I'm lucky, in my part of Spain we have great twisty high speed highways that are a pleasure to the p-nut, and speed enforcement is not that heavy, once or twice a month I encounter a camouflaged car with radar, and easy to avoid with a radar detector. Its a paradise in that respect. However other parts of Spain such as Cataluña are exactly the opposite. They are cracking up on the Gumball raly guys that are going through there these days.
I was in Orlando a 2 years ago and I couln't believe it! no curves, all straights, no mountains, all flat, and 10,000 lanes but everyone was going at the same slow speed in caravan like a herd, even the left outermost ones! so were talking on the phone without hands free kit, some eating, some just sitting like they were driving their lazyboy chair of their living room... I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown
May 11, 2004 9:51:14 PM
- Grant
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: Why?
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
I was in Orlando a 2 years ago and I couln't believe it! no curves, all straights, no mountains, all flat, and 10,000 lanes but everyone was going at the same slow speed in caravan like a herd, even the left outermost ones! so were talking on the phone without hands free kit, some eating, some just sitting like they were driving their lazyboy chair of their living room... I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown
I totally agree. I hate that crap! Fortunately, not all of the US is that way - still some fun roads here in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado (and in many other spots)
May 11, 2004 9:54:03 PM
- fritz
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Why?
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
I was in Orlando a 2 years ago and I couln't believe it! no curves, all straights, no mountains, all flat, and 10,000 lanes but everyone was going at the same slow speed in caravan like a herd, even the left outermost ones! so were talking on the phone without hands free kit, some eating, some just sitting like they were driving their lazyboy chair of their living room... I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown
Know what you mean!:p
The Florida drivers who impress
me are the ones with a coffee cup in one hand, telephone in the other, a cigarette clamped in their lips, and rely on telepathy to do the steering!
May 11, 2004 10:13:32 PM
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RC
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: Why?
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
I was in Orlando a 2 years ago and I couln't believe it! no curves, all straights, no mountains, all flat, and 10,000 lanes but everyone was going at the same slow speed in caravan like a herd, even the left outermost ones! so were talking on the phone without hands free kit, some eating, some just sitting like they were driving their lazyboy chair of their living room... I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown
Tell ME about it. We travel each year from Miami to Orlando and back by car(Lincoln Navigator) and it is always the most boring drive imagineable. Sometimes I really had to stop at service areas because I almost feel asleep. I can drive double the distance at speeds around 200 kph and more and I feel still feel "fresh" and not tired. Also concentration goes to a very low level when driving those straight streets at that low speed, very dangerous indeed. The US needs much better driver education, much more severe driver license tests and higher speed limits. I think every 3 lane highway outside big city areas should have a 120 mph limit and 2 lane highways outside big city areas 100 mph. But maybe it is too late...too many drivers who never really learned how to drive.
May 11, 2004 10:15:58 PM
- Captain Bady
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Carlos from Spain
Re: 997S vs 997
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:Quote:
Captain Bady said:
Carlos, didn't you think that Porsche may want to keep their clients by not DEVALUATING hardly the 996 increasing the power of the 997?
Thats part of the game, its called evolution and development. Every 6 or so years a new model comes out with along many other things, improved engine performance than the previous model. When I bought my 996 it had 300HP then shortly after a facelift to 320HP and now the new model should increase accordingly just like the rest of the industry. And my 996 will gradually fall back as time goes by, and I accept that. If you buy a 911 close to the end of its lifespan you accept than when the new model comes out it will have increased HP, otherwise evolution will be halted, and the 911 will lag behind what it once was. Is the 998 supposed to have the same HP approx than the 997 as well so as not to devaluate the 997? we would be driving around 130HP 996s if that were the case
HP increases within the same model is more questionalble though since they can offer that HP since the beginning and its only done for marketing-sales reasons.
No Carlos, it isn't part of the game totally. All cars evolute and all cars devaluate too. However the market of the 911 has changed completly since the introduction of the 996. The part of people who started to buy the car, as said before, are the one who were looking for image. Porsche, is the car to have if you want to have a certain high status in society. It is symbol. In Italy, people in order to buy a 996, have done so many financial plans for the purchase that they pay a lot of interest, but they have it. The "Porsche", the car that make them feel someone of important. It was the " similar " with the Boxster, but slightly " different ". The real people like us, that have passion in cars and that do not only consider a Porsche a mean of transport, are very few unfortunatly. Porsche as many of todays companies had to choice, produce extreme cars with a high risk of bankruptcy or produce a "civilised" sportcars for a widerange of clients. After the crisis in the 993 period, I guess they tried to go for the second possibility. And it worked. We have seen that many pure Porsche enthusiast critized the 996, but it didn't affect at all the sales of the 996 and I underline (however I don't know how to do it on the forum
) , the SALES, because they were pretty high. It made the fortune of Porsche. The Boxster pushed even more the boom in Porsche AG. Those sales allowed to invest even more, and here it came the Cayenne, which, seems to be another boom. I guess at Porsche, in those last 6 years, every morning, the people who work there, get up with a smile on their face.Going back to what concerns the 996, there are so many of these 996 that it became almost as popular as a Serie 3 BMW on the streets. Now, immagine the people who bought all those 996. There are a lot of those people. All people that are looking for an image car, a car that gives them prestige. Yes, many of them are very wealthy, but the majority of them are people that can JUST afford it. Now immagine Porsche gets out a new 997 with 360 HP and a S version with 380 HP. Prices stay the same or slightly higher. Those people who have the 996 want to change it with the 997. They go to the dealer and say I want it. How much would you give me for my 996 Carrera 2 , year 2002. 30000km ? The dealer answers to the guy. "I want to be generous, 50000 euros! "
The guy lets say paid the car with all its optionals around 90000 euros.
40000 euros less? Almost half of the price? Is this a Porsche or a Alfa Romeo? Of course the guy would not buy it because he could not afford it. And immagine thousands and thousands of people like this guy. How do you want to sell the 997?
The 996 had depriated by its own during the last years quite a lot, without the influence of any 997 model. This due to the high quantity available of this car. Now that the 997 model come out, it will get another shock, it might be slight, but it will get it. If the 997 had even more HP immagine how the 996 would've devaluate even more?
And here it comes to something even more important.
What about the dear owners of 996 GT3?
You may say that it is a different type of car, but it doesn't seem to be different on yur eyes when you see 997 S 380 HP, 996 GT3 380 HP.
Lap time Ring 997 S 380 HP : 7.52.5 (those are random times as ofcourse but I just know that the ACTUAL 997 S is just 5 sec slower than the 996 GT3 380 HP )
Lap time Ring 996 GT3 : 7.51
How do you think I may react? I may still love Porsche and like it, but be sure that at the next occasion I would definetly jump to another sportscar producer if it offers me something similar.
Not to mention the 996 Turbo, which has almost the same performance of the GT3 and therefore it would've had the same of the 997 S with 380 HP!
Carlos, it is not at all an attack or critisizm towards you
, it is just to say what I think about this.I could've add you another 2-3 example of why Porsche didn't increase the power output further (in my opinion of course), but I don't have the time to unfortunatly.
Again, after the 996, the Boxster and the Cayenne, they made a 4th good shot on their strategy with the 997.
Why?
firstly because the 997 is a perfect evolution of the 996, let me evidence, technically.
secondly, it is very nice, and people will like it.
thirdly, old 993 Porschemaniacs will be very happy for the new design, which may encourage them to EVOLUTE themself to something new (
)fourth, the 996 is now different from all the 911 ever made. It is the only Porsche that does not have round (or oval, depends how you want to consider it) front lights. Therefore it has its own charme, its own seduction and would note look old in anyway even in many years coming along....especially the 996 series with Turbo front lights
fifth....ok I will stop even if there are few points to add...
Regards,
Bady
PS: sorry for my english!
May 11, 2004 10:45:58 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: 997S vs 997
I would never take it as an attack Cap Bady, you are very respectful in your words, I appreciate the exchange of ideas
I understand exactly what you are saying its just that when you buy a car you know that the next model is going to be better, you can't avoid that and you know its going to happen, its not like you didn't know it happens and Porsche did it behind our backs. And when you buy a car you should expect it, and further more if you buy a car towards the end of its lifespan you should take into consideration that the new "better" model is around the corner, if you still buy the outgoing model then don't be surprised or complain.
Progress and evolution can't be halted so as not to step on the toes of previous model owners, that may be a good strategy for the short-term but not the long-term. That why I allways tend to buy cars at the begginnig of their lifespan (normally after the first bugs are worked out) and even then you can't avoid the facelifts too. But when I dish out the $ for a new model, I expect an improvement in all the areas not just a different face.
At least they didn't halt the handling improvements instead of halting the engine performance, now that would of been a seroius problem
I understand exactly what you are saying its just that when you buy a car you know that the next model is going to be better, you can't avoid that and you know its going to happen, its not like you didn't know it happens and Porsche did it behind our backs. And when you buy a car you should expect it, and further more if you buy a car towards the end of its lifespan you should take into consideration that the new "better" model is around the corner, if you still buy the outgoing model then don't be surprised or complain.
Progress and evolution can't be halted so as not to step on the toes of previous model owners, that may be a good strategy for the short-term but not the long-term. That why I allways tend to buy cars at the begginnig of their lifespan (normally after the first bugs are worked out) and even then you can't avoid the facelifts too. But when I dish out the $ for a new model, I expect an improvement in all the areas not just a different face.
At least they didn't halt the handling improvements instead of halting the engine performance, now that would of been a seroius problem
May 11, 2004 10:53:46 PM
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RC
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: 997S vs 997
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
But when I dish out the $ for a new model, I expect an improvement in all the areas not just a different face.
At least they didn't halt the handling improvements instead of halting the engine performance, now that would of been a seroius problem
I hate to repeat myself, Carlos.
Wait until you see it in person and we talk again.
What did you expect? A radical design change as from the 993 to the 996? They couldn't do it for various reasons. This is actually how the 911 keeps up it's value, all people recognize the 911, no matter if it is a 1960 or 2004 model.
Honestly, I think the 997 is the perfect 911. Of course I wish they had added more power and less weight but you can't have it all, right?
If the quality is right too, the 997 might sell even better than the 996. Now all we need over here in Europe is a stronger economy...
May 11, 2004 10:56:42 PM
- Captain Bady
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: 997S vs 997
How could I attack my Rennteam friend with who I share two same passion (sportcars and motorbikes )!
I agree on the devaluation of all cars, of course, but I was pointing on what concerned the intensity of the devaluation
From a new model you say that you except improvements on all the areas. Well, you expect too much Joking! Anyway, just to make you a comparative example. You see it with motorbikes, Do you think that the battle of power will go further on between the GSXR - R1 - ZX ? It will stop one day. Does Ducati follow them? No Try to see Porsche in the same position of Ducati ( I apologise if I offended Porsche . I actually feel like I did as I am not a great fan of Ducati )
PS: I forgot to wish you happy birthday actually Happy Birthday Carlos!
I agree on the devaluation of all cars, of course, but I was pointing on what concerned the intensity of the devaluation
From a new model you say that you except improvements on all the areas. Well, you expect too much
Joking! Anyway, just to make you a comparative example. You see it with motorbikes, Do you think that the battle of power will go further on between the GSXR - R1 - ZX ? It will stop one day. Does Ducati follow them? No Try to see Porsche in the same position of Ducati ( I apologise if I offended Porsche . I actually feel like I did as I am not a great fan of Ducati )
PS: I forgot to wish you happy birthday actually
Happy Birthday Carlos!
May 11, 2004 11:00:36 PM
- Captain Bady
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RC
May 11, 2004 11:15:29 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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RC
Re: 997S vs 997
Quote:
RC said:
I hate to repeat myself, Carlos.
Wait until you see it in person and we talk again.
What did you expect? A radical design change as from the 993 to the 996? They couldn't do it for various reasons. This is actually how the 911 keeps up it's value, all people recognize the 911, no matter if it is a 1960 or 2004 model.
Honestly, I think the 997 is the perfect 911. Of course I wish they had added more power and less weight but you can't have it all, right?
I know, I know, I'll be hooked as soon as I try it but I'm just talking about HP issue not the handling. Like I said before, the 997S did 7:59 at the ring with 355HP and sport suspensions
that incredible. I would of liked a decrease in weight but I already knew that wasn't going to be posible so didn't expect it, but I'm reffering just to the lack of engine enhancement. Well, the retro-styling is not my cup of tea too but doesn't matter and is totally subjective so its irrelevant.
May 11, 2004 11:15:54 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: 997S vs 997
Quote:
Captain Bady said:Anyway, just to make you a comparative example. You see it with motorbikes, Do you think that the battle of power will go further on between the GSXR - R1 - ZX ? It will stop one day. Does Ducati follow them? No
Tell me about it, I bought the 2002 GSX-R1000 (that was introduced only one year earlier) since it was the fastest bike then, and next year Suzuki launches the improved new 2003 GSX-R1000, new chasis, new front brakes, slimmer, etc... to make a long story short, I ended turning in my one year old 2002 for the new 2003
Now Ducati doesn't follow for a different reason, its because they simply can't, V-twin configuration is getting outdated and can't come close to the HP outputs and even the torque of the new generation in-line 4's in the track they just get killed by them, and they are lighter, and much cheaper, and more reliable, and... BTW, thanks for the B-day
May 11, 2004 11:26:23 PM
- Captain Bady
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: 997S vs 997
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:Quote:
Captain Bady said:Anyway, just to make you a comparative example. You see it with motorbikes, Do you think that the battle of power will go further on between the GSXR - R1 - ZX ? It will stop one day. Does Ducati follow them? No
Tell me about it, I bought the 2002 GSX-R1000 (that was introduced only one year earlier) since it was the fastest bike then, and next year Suzuki launches the improved new 2003 GSX-R1000, new chasis, new front brakes, slimmer, etc... to make a long story short, I ended turning in my one year old 2002 for the new 2003
BTW, thanks for the B-day
I kept mine, If I had to follow HP on the motorbike I should be changing it ever year. And counting that I spend lot of money on modifying it for track, it would just bring me to bankruptcy. So I keep my GSXR 1000 K1 until I destroy it.
PS: just got a MV Agusta too (good second hand deal....but shhhhhh....
PS2: sorry for OFFTOPIC
May 12, 2004 11:01:05 PM
- ZZZZMD
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Re: 997S vs 997
I think trying to evaluate the 997/997S by just looking at published HP figures is sort of like trying to sample a restaurant by just reading the menu. That said, I do think that the output figures are a little disappointing given the state of the competition. I will wait to see on-the-road performance figures, and I seriously doubt anyone would call a 911 slow! Nevertheless, I would look for a Turbo with more than 450 HP, and cost WILL be a factor, something that should not be lost on the guys at PAG.
Nevertheless, I would look for a Turbo with more than 450 HP, and cost WILL be a factor, something that should not be lost on the guys at PAG.
May 14, 2004 8:39:29 AM
- kauai_diver
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Re: 997S vs 997
GM (Corvette), BMW, Mercedes, etc.. are not afraid to raise the HP bar to the next level, why is Porsche afraid?
The M3 since 2001 has had 333hp, now going to 400... thats quite a big difference compared to the 996 and 997S.
I am an "impulsive" buyer by nature, and it has burned me somewhat in the past. Now I am a bit reluctant to buy the 997S... ah what the hell life is short right? The 997S will waste most other cars on the road
The M3 since 2001 has had 333hp, now going to 400... thats quite a big difference compared to the 996 and 997S.
I am an "impulsive" buyer by nature, and it has burned me somewhat in the past. Now I am a bit reluctant to buy the 997S... ah what the hell life is short right? The 997S will waste most other cars on the road
May 14, 2004 11:36:23 AM
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RC
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May 14, 2004 12:07:34 PM
- Paulo_Rangel_Melo
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Reply to:
RC
Re: 997S vs 997
Quote:
RC said:
I guess this is that special thing about the 911. Even if you drive a 10 years old 911, it still doesn't seem to be outdated.
Yesterday, my dad went to take his Bmw X5 to our oficial Bmw Dealer to fix something in the suspension.In the park there was a red with some black toutches 911 Carrera Cabrio (if i'm not wrong it was the 964).
Let me tell you these the car is outdated, no doubt about it but i just looked and starred at him for lots of minutes and what's amazing is that after all these years it still looked beautifull.
No matter if a Porsche is 10/20/30/40 years, it looks always beautifull.
Dont remeber too many companies (or any) that have a model that mantains beatifull for so much time.
Woshhh.........
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