Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem - Page1

Jan 30, 2007 1:38:00 AM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005

Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

There was a thread I started a year ago................it was on the significant lateral shift of the suspension in the midst of a moderate + speed corner, taken quite fast, when encountering a bump, or unsettling of the car, or change of line for whatever reason. The weight transfer was considerable, and the car felt 'sloppy'.

The Excellence mag talked quite a bit about this--------it was not evident in the 997S Cup cars, or the turbo, GT3. And maybe was gone in the later 2006 997 PASMs, according to Editor Stout.

The latter found out on a German trip that Manthey Motors of the North-Ring had a solution; rotation of the rubber bushings on the rear wishbones.

Just had it done------fixed the problem. Rear-end is now firm and coherent----- just as my NSX is --- with no excessive weight transfer....circa 300$. I could NOT understand why, with very similar rear-front weight distribitiom (with a full 997 gas tank, and an empty NSX (!)) the NSX felt consistent, smooth and predictable at the back, whereas the 997 was lurching as this lateral shift often occured.

We suspect that the bushings were incorrectly installed at the factory......or Manthey would have provided new/better bushings!

Why has PAG not put out a recall?!....a bulletin? Suggest you guys test your 2005 PASMs more critically in corners...

Now---the Carrera feels good, wonderful--at last!

Kiwicanuck

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Jan 30, 2007 9:00:59 AM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Did your Porsche deqler do the work for you, and did they charge you?

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Jan 30, 2007 10:05:52 AM

zoltan: Co-Pilot; Loc: Athens , Greece; Posts: 275, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2004; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Is this part available through Manthey media site?

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Jan 30, 2007 10:33:35 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: zoltan

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Well done KiwiCanuck. You finally found the outcome you were searching for. May I suggest you post some detail as to what you did and how you did it so that others may benefit from your experience. In the case of MY05/06 cars, finally, PASM does what it is supposed to do.

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Jan 30, 2007 10:45:03 AM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Personally, I have never noticed this 'flaw' in over 10,000 miles of driving my June 05 build C2S Cab.

I know the Cabs have a slightly different PASM setup to the coupes, so perhaps early model Cabs don't have this characteristic.

So yes, please let us know what exactly we should do to try and replicate it.

Cheers

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Jan 30, 2007 2:24:53 PM

Jim48: Senior; Loc: Virginia, USA; Posts: 639, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2005; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

I have never noticed this problem, and I do a lot of my driving on very winding roads, with a lot of switchbacks and hairpin turns. I tend to position the car so that I can "power" through the turns. I have not noticed any problem with the PASM or intervention by the PSM.

I am very careful to make sure that my tire pressures are set properly before I drive and the TPMS, now standard on models sold in the U.S., really helps with this.

Jim

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Jan 31, 2007 9:08:24 PM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

They charged me of course.......my dealer is not a regular PAG, who do not understand or accept any reponsibility----fortunately as an Acura, Audi, VW dealer, with special porsche sales, they are flexible and good----

Kiwicanuck

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Jan 31, 2007 9:12:49 PM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: zoltan

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Hello zoltan,

Manthey motors will send you photos of the wishbone and the bushing to rotate----or will sell you you new wishbones with proper bushing insertion if you cannot do the job of bushing removal and rotation---

I do not feel free to post photos sent to me, after a personal request for help------

Go ahead and ask them, it is an interesting site@ They are tops in the porsche racing prep field---

Kiwicanuck

Kiwicanuck

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Jan 31, 2007 9:24:36 PM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Hello Alex,

The problem is that PAG will not admit to any problem-----I trust Excellence mag, as one of the best in our territory, with Pete Stout and the fine Europen Ed (Ian Kuah maybe wrong in the spelling) to locate the problem, and I definitely agree that my car HAD IT! They found the solution with Manthey Motors, so please no one out there tell Pete, or Ian, or me, or Manthey motors to check our tire pressures!!
So we do not know when PAG fixed it on the assembly line......it seems that the 4s do not have the problem, and one 2006 Pete drove was OK-----the cabs may also be OK
I explained in my thread-start when you experience this, and can say no more: if your car has a very noticable lateral body motion when unsettled, as if it was suddenly moving onto some sort of rubber-stop, then you are infected....

Don't argue with the messenger---Manthey would not bother fixing an imaginery problem!!!

Cheers Kiwicanuck

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Jan 31, 2007 9:29:42 PM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: Jim48

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Well Jim48, I noted above that it is thought, from Pete Stout, based on one 2006 he drove, that the problem was fixed in them........

We must remember that the majority of 997 Carrera owners do not drive in 'proper' Porsche manner, and will therfore NEVER notice this effect in 2005 PASM cars.......my contact with the top Toronto dealer was that only person out of hundreds of cars, had noticed anything.
Most drive small distances at moderate speeds, on dry summer weekends, not pushing anything too much----

Kiwicanuck

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Feb 1, 2007 11:14:57 AM

zoltan: Co-Pilot; Loc: Athens , Greece; Posts: 275, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2004; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Thanks a lot, i am infected along time ago with that lateral movement.

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Feb 5, 2007 6:25:55 PM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

It is remarkable that only one person, plus 'zoltan', out of the hundreds of 2005 C2S and C2+PASM owners who use this web, are aware of this serious handling problem....

Two possible reasons: very few 2005 911s were assembled with this wishbone-bushing error/flaw,,puzzling,,Pete Stout and Ian Kuah Ed/European Ed of 'Excellence', 'zoltan' and I!,,,,,,,,,,,,or most 2005 drivers accept this behaviour as 'normal 911', or do not corner their cars fast enough to even experience the problem.

I do not much like/favour any of the above reasons for the lack of response to this problem, by readers of this web?!

Thoughts anyone?

KiwiCanuck

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Feb 5, 2007 7:16:25 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Quote:
KiwiCanuck said:
It is remarkable that only one person, plus 'zoltan', out of the hundreds of 2005 C2S and C2+PASM owners who use this web, are aware of this serious handling problem....

Two possible reasons: very few 2005 911s were assembled with this wishbone-bushing error/flaw,,puzzling,,Pete Stout and Ian Kuah Ed/European Ed of 'Excellence', 'zoltan' and I!,,,,,,,,,,,,or most 2005 drivers accept this behaviour as 'normal 911', or do not corner their cars fast enough to even experience the problem.

I do not much like/favour any of the above reasons for the lack of response to this problem, by readers of this web?!

Thoughts anyone?

KiwiCanuck

Maybe "serious handling problem" is a bit of hyperbole

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Feb 5, 2007 7:51:06 PM

excmag: Junior; Loc: SF, CA; Posts: 51, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 22, 2005; Reply to: 964C2

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Quote:
964C2 said:
Quote:
KiwiCanuck said:
It is remarkable that only one person, plus 'zoltan', out of the hundreds of 2005 C2S and C2+PASM owners who use this web, are aware of this serious handling problem....

Two possible reasons: very few 2005 911s were assembled with this wishbone-bushing error/flaw,,puzzling,,Pete Stout and Ian Kuah Ed/European Ed of 'Excellence', 'zoltan' and I!,,,,,,,,,,,,or most 2005 drivers accept this behaviour as 'normal 911', or do not corner their cars fast enough to even experience the problem.

I do not much like/favour any of the above reasons for the lack of response to this problem, by readers of this web?!

Thoughts anyone?

KiwiCanuck

Maybe "serious handling problem" is a bit of hyperbole

Indeed, might be a BIT of an overstatement.

That said, it did sour the car for me. Handling is everything in a sports car, for me. Otherwise, a lot of other cars will do. Like a TT, SLK, etc.

And Olaf is no village [beep]. I am sure he would not have taken the time if the issue were so small as to be useless to address.

KC, would you be so kind as to write in with a letter to the editor with your findings? I am so very glad you came to a good conclusion, and I believe that your move to do so marks you as a sensitive driver and/or one who pursues excellence in every area of your car.

Cheers,

pete

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Feb 5, 2007 7:53:05 PM

excmag: Junior; Loc: SF, CA; Posts: 51, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 22, 2005; Reply to: excmag

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Quote:
excmag said:
And Olaf is no village [beep].

Wow! Idi*t is censored! Well, I guess I can understand why. Are you guys really that mean to each other? Or was it the comments about journalists that did it?

pete

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Feb 5, 2007 9:35:01 PM

Jim48: Senior; Loc: Virginia, USA; Posts: 639, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2005; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

I now have to add two comments, as you have stirred my memory.

First, I do remember hearing about this problem from a test drive done by Andrew English of the London Telegraph in late June of 2004 when the 2005 model was introduced in the UK. He said that the PASM (which he strongly recommended as an option if one didn't get the S version) sometimes provided a strange solution - meaning the car leaned in an odd and unexpected direction - when you really put it through its paces. He seemed like an accomplished driver so it may well be that there is (or was) some shortcoming in the software.

Second, I now do recall that something similar happened to me - I did not take a turn properly and the car seemed to tilt in an odd, and unexpected, direction. This happened to me after I had just taken delivery of the car and had well under 1,000 miles on it, and I remember that this occurred while driving on a narrow country road. I haven't had this problem since then - I have about 6,600 miles on the car at this point.

Jim

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Feb 5, 2007 9:55:21 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: Jim48

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

My car has had that "characteristic" since new. I can probably fix it in my own shop. Thanks!!!

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Feb 5, 2007 9:57:26 PM

ChrisB: Newbie; Loc: France; Posts: 13, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2006; Reply to: Jim48

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Forgive me if I'm being dim here, but is this the same problem Pete from Excellence mag found in his review of the 997 GT3?
Which would mean the problem hasn't been fixed on the assembly line...

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Feb 5, 2007 11:34:17 PM

excmag: Junior; Loc: SF, CA; Posts: 51, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 22, 2005; Reply to: ChrisB

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Quote:
ChrisB said:
Forgive me if I'm being dim here, but is this the same problem Pete from Excellence mag found in his review of the 997 GT3?
Which would mean the problem hasn't been fixed on the assembly line...

No, different issue and not directly related to PASM. It's a bushing durometer choice/load shift issue.

pete

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Feb 6, 2007 10:14:25 AM

Coffee: Junior; Loc: Maryland, USA; Posts: 52, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 15, 2005; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

I've got the problem on my 05 997S. My dealer is aware there
is an issue but Porsche is mum on the subject so no fix. I am a bit confused as early reports sugested bushings that may have been installed incorectly/ backwards and more recently in Excellence letters it was reported the motor mounts on 05 cars were too soft allowing the engine to move around. The 06 cars have firmer motor mounts. Feedback?

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Feb 7, 2007 2:46:17 AM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: excmag

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Hello excmag,

This from the hyperbolic KC-----I have sent, by Canadian pigeon, a letter to the Editor. I deliberately avoid a PC at home, to escape the beastly thing, and so found a pigeon last weekend. I think it flew south.......

Yes, well......'serious' was not meant to imply a likely cause for accidents---although an inexperienced driver sensing this for the first time, and if near the limits of adhesion, could thus 'lose it'...... IMHO....and 964C2 has yet to feel that lateral shift----or is the 964 like that anyway?....joking, not intended to be crtical of that fine car..........

But for a $115K car, with the name Carrera, the resulting feeling of sloppiness in the 997-PASM is, frankly, inexcusable. It sours (taints), as you said, ones 'feeling' for the car.

PAG could easily have sent out a bulletin suggesting owners bring in their cars for 'checking', The 'assembly numbers' must be known by now ------- let's see ---- that is $3M for each 10 thousand cars ------ too much for the profit line?

But --- its over now----- the 'taint' has gone ------- and at last the 997C2-PASM is as predictable/smooth in corners as my 1995 NSX------ and in many ways nicer....so agile.....should be as the 997 is 15 years newer in design potential!

The NSX was, and still is, a fantastic car for a 1990 design ----- although they refined it continually ...... 1995,7,02 ..... as often as the 911, and almost to the year without changing the 'type' number...

Bonne Chance to those who are now going to fix their Carreras ------

Cheers KiwiCanuck

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Feb 7, 2007 4:46:48 AM

Damian: Senior; Loc: Pa, USA; Posts: 646, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 10, 2005; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Quote:
KiwiCanuck said:
Hello excmag,

This from the hyperbolic KC-----I have sent, by Canadian pigeon, a letter to the Editor. I deliberately avoid a PC at home, to escape the beastly thing, and so found a pigeon last weekend. I think it flew south.......

Yes, well......'serious' was not meant to imply a likely cause for accidents---although an inexperienced driver sensing this for the first time, and if near the limits of adhesion, could thus 'lose it'...... IMHO....and 964C2 has yet to feel that lateral shift----or is the 964 like that anyway?....joking, not intended to be crtical of that fine car..........

But for a $115K car, with the name Carrera, the resulting feeling of sloppiness in the 997-PASM is, frankly, inexcusable. It sours (taints), as you said, ones 'feeling' for the car.

PAG could easily have sent out a bulletin suggesting owners bring in their cars for 'checking', The 'assembly numbers' must be known by now ------- let's see ---- that is $3M for each 10 thousand cars ------ too much for the profit line?

But --- its over now----- the 'taint' has gone ------- and at last the 997C2-PASM is as predictable/smooth in corners as my 1995 NSX------ and in many ways nicer....so agile.....should be as the 997 is 15 years newer in design potential!

The NSX was, and still is, a fantastic car for a 1990 design ----- although they refined it continually ...... 1995,7,02 ..... as often as the 911, and almost to the year without changing the 'type' number...

Bonne Chance to those who are now going to fix their Carreras ------

Cheers KiwiCanuck

Great post... and thread, Canuck.

I look forward to the upcoming mag issue.
Per circulation figures Pete cited recently, it sounds like you're about to get the assist (hockey, eh

) on the remedy for this handling quirk... the toast of 50,000+ Excellence readers. This internet thing is pretty cool...

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Feb 7, 2007 6:14:51 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Solution to 997 PASM handling problem

Quote:
KiwiCanuck said:
Hello excmag,

This from the hyperbolic KC-----I have sent, by Canadian pigeon, a letter to the Editor. I deliberately avoid a PC at home, to escape the beastly thing, and so found a pigeon last weekend. I think it flew south.......

Yes, well......'serious' was not meant to imply a likely cause for accidents---although an inexperienced driver sensing this for the first time, and if near the limits of adhesion, could thus 'lose it'...... IMHO....and 964C2 has yet to feel that lateral shift----or is the 964 like that anyway?....joking, not intended to be crtical of that fine car..........

But for a $115K car, with the name Carrera, the resulting feeling of sloppiness in the 997-PASM is, frankly, inexcusable. It sours (taints), as you said, ones 'feeling' for the car.

PAG could easily have sent out a bulletin suggesting owners bring in their cars for 'checking', The 'assembly numbers' must be known by now ------- let's see ---- that is $3M for each 10 thousand cars ------ too much for the profit line?

But --- its over now----- the 'taint' has gone ------- and at last the 997C2-PASM is as predictable/smooth in corners as my 1995 NSX------ and in many ways nicer....so agile.....should be as the 997 is 15 years newer in design potential!

The NSX was, and still is, a fantastic car for a 1990 design ----- although they refined it continually ...... 1995,7,02 ..... as often as the 911, and almost to the year without changing the 'type' number...

Bonne Chance to those who are now going to fix their Carreras ------

Cheers KiwiCanuck

KC, you're right, my trusty 964 does not demonstrate that trait

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