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    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    I hate to say I told you so. I am refering to the many times I recomended the LSD option. Like atomic80 and others have said it makes the car feel more planted and gives better traction through the turns. IMHO a must have option. Of course if you get the tiptronic you cannot get LSD.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    sure hope the LSD is the solution, I cant imagine the 997 regressing when the base car and 4S etc are so good in the handling dept!

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    What if Ferrari 430 spiders and Carrera GT's were readily available in the market place. How would consumers value the 430 spider's relative to the Carrera GT's in such a market? Your answer is, look to the rest of the world. The "market value" of a 430 spider in the rest of the world is half the price of the Carrera GT.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    I think RC brings up some very valid points. Especially when it comes to the driver's ability.

    However, let's just for arguments sake say that the 2 cars cost the same. And that you do not need to drive it close to the limit. I'd take the GT any day of the week. Based on the sound alone, I'd almost sell everything I have to get one

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    Tom G. said:
    What if Ferrari 430 spiders and Carrera GT's were readily available in the market place. How would consumers value the 430 spider's relative to the Carrera GT's in such a market? Your answer is, look to the rest of the world. The "market value" of a 430 spider in the rest of the world is half the price of the Carrera GT.



    There is a reason why knowledgeable people who buy and sell cars in the US place a low value on the the CGT. No one questions its perf. parameters but many question whether it is a car for public use. The Ferrari is just more fun to drive on a daily basis. When I drove the CGT, I always had a little sweat on my brow and I was totally immersed in driving the car within my limits because it was very easy to go beyond your limits in this car. And therein lies the difference between driving a 430 and a CGT.

    Regarding maintenance cost you are mistaken in believing that the CGT costs are about the same as a Ferrari. The CGT cost will be much higher.

    For an example, a clutch replacement will run about $20-25000. For a Ferrari $5000. At 20,000 miles the CGT will require a valve adjustment. The cost has not been determined but you can bet it will be very expensive since the engine will have to be removed and taken apart probably by a mechanic from Germany. The Ferrari has a 15,000 maintenance which will run about $1500.Also the CGT eats up tires and the costs will run about $2000 every 5000 miles.

    The CGT is a super performance car but if perf. is what you want in a track environment a Porsche GT3 Cup car would be cheaper and faster with about the same maintenance costs.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Shaun from 6speedonline.com spent $14.000 on a 15.000-mile service for his 360... Cheap maintenance indeed.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Tom G. said:
    What if Ferrari 430 spiders and Carrera GT's were readily available in the market place. How would consumers value the 430 spider's relative to the Carrera GT's in such a market? Your answer is, look to the rest of the world. The "market value" of a 430 spider in the rest of the world is half the price of the Carrera GT.



    There is a reason why knowledgeable people who buy and sell cars in the US place a low value on the the CGT. No one questions its perf. parameters but many question whether it is a car for public use. The Ferrari is just more fun to drive on a daily basis. When I drove the CGT, I always had a little sweat on my brow and I was totally immersed in driving the car within my limits because it was very easy to go beyond your limits in this car. And therein lies the difference between driving a 430 and a CGT.

    Regarding maintenance cost you are mistaken in believing that the CGT costs are about the same as a Ferrari. The CGT cost will be much higher.

    For an example, a clutch replacement will run about $20-25000. For a Ferrari $5000. At 20,000 miles the CGT will require a valve adjustment. The cost has not been determined but you can bet it will be very expensive since the engine will have to be removed and taken apart probably by a mechanic from Germany. The Ferrari has a 15,000 maintenance which will run about $1500.Also the CGT eats up tires and the costs will run about $2000 every 5000 miles.

    The CGT is a super performance car but if perf. is what you want in a track environment a Porsche GT3 Cup car would be cheaper and faster with about the same maintenance costs.



    Unfortunately, your analysis is predicated on the fact that those who are financially enabled are always purists in terms of motorsporting.

    This is hardly the case, I'm sure most of us are aware, when dubious poseurs drive around in their sports cars without any understanding of what they are capable of or what to do with them.

    Saying the F430 is "more fun" to drive than the CGT because the CGT puts some "sweat on your brow" is laughable from a person in my position. Maybe its my age, but that's my take and I consider myself as a motorsporting purist...

    The fact that the CGT goes beyond my limits is why I desire one more than any other car in the world. Life is about challenges not pushovers...

    Just me

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Tom G. said:
    What if Ferrari 430 spiders and Carrera GT's were readily available in the market place. How would consumers value the 430 spider's relative to the Carrera GT's in such a market? Your answer is, look to the rest of the world. The "market value" of a 430 spider in the rest of the world is half the price of the Carrera GT.



    There is a reason why knowledgeable people who buy and sell cars in the US place a low value on the the CGT. No one questions its perf. parameters but many question whether it is a car for public use. The Ferrari is just more fun to drive on a daily basis. When I drove the CGT, I always had a little sweat on my brow and I was totally immersed in driving the car within my limits because it was very easy to go beyond your limits in this car. And therein lies the difference between driving a 430 and a CGT.

    Regarding maintenance cost you are mistaken in believing that the CGT costs are about the same as a Ferrari. The CGT cost will be much higher.

    For an example, a clutch replacement will run about $20-25000. For a Ferrari $5000. At 20,000 miles the CGT will require a valve adjustment. The cost has not been determined but you can bet it will be very expensive since the engine will have to be removed and taken apart probably by a mechanic from Germany. The Ferrari has a 15,000 maintenance which will run about $1500.Also the CGT eats up tires and the costs will run about $2000 every 5000 miles.

    The CGT is a super performance car but if perf. is what you want in a track environment a Porsche GT3 Cup car would be cheaper and faster with about the same maintenance costs.



    Unfortunately, your analysis is predicated on the fact that those who are financially enabled are always purists in terms of motorsporting.

    This is hardly the case, I'm sure most of us are aware, when dubious poseurs drive around in their sports cars without any understanding of what they are capable of or what to do with them.

    Saying the F430 is "more fun" to drive than the CGT because the CGT puts some "sweat on your brow" is laughable from a person in my position. Maybe its my age, but that's my take and I consider myself as a motorsporting purist...

    The fact that the CGT goes beyond my limits is why I desire one more than any other car in the world. Life is about challenges not pushovers...

    Just me



    You should thank your lucky stars you are not able to afford one. Youth does have its advantages. Lack of wisdom and an inordinate amount of bravado.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    Tom G. said:
    What if Ferrari 430 spiders and Carrera GT's were readily available in the market place. How would consumers value the 430 spider's relative to the Carrera GT's in such a market? Your answer is, look to the rest of the world. The "market value" of a 430 spider in the rest of the world is half the price of the Carrera GT.



    Who cares about "value" when the car in question, the F430 Spider, is butt-ugly. Look at the cheap looking roll bars (is this really a $200k convertible?!?), weird/after market looking humps, tacky/rice clear engine cover with "Godzilla" vents along the sides, not to mention the rear diffuser that looks after-market and it's not well integrated. Who cares about "value?" Do you really want to be seen driving in public such an ugly and attention grabbing vulgar car like a gold diamond encrusted Rolex watch? The front/bumper is just as ugly. I'm sure it's a lot of fun to drive, but who cares, when it's so ugly. Have you ever seen an uglier car, let alone for $200k!?!? Shame on Ferrari. They are taking advantage of their low volume production to inflate prices and "spitting in the faces" of their buyers with such ugly cars because they can get away with it based on the "Ferrari mystique." Heck, they can make a car that looks like the Pontiac Aztec in low numbers and people will snap it up. A $200k+ convertible shouldn't look this terrible. Look at the Lambo Gallaro Spider, Mercedes 550SL, Bentley GTC, for what a convertible should look like (hint: no cheap roll bars, no weird humps). Shame on Ferrari.

    Ferrari: stop spitting in the faces of your customers and make some decent looking cars!

    David

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    LB said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    There's no comparison. The F430 Spyder is IMHO the worst looking $200k convertible car on the market. Consider these styling faults, and yes I've seen one in person:

    1) ugly, hideous, front bumper.
    2) weird, after-market looking humps.
    3) cheap looking roll bars (not appropriate for a $200k convertible).
    4) rice, tacky, clear engine cover with "Godzilla" vents along the sides.
    5) rear diffuser looks after-market and not well integrated.

    If you want to know what a $200k convertible should look like take a look at the Bently GTC and Lambo Gallardo Spyder. No weird humps or cheap roll bars. EVO in the September issue says the Gallardo Spyder is better than the F430 Spyder due to the F430 Spyder's styling deficients. It's a shame Ferrari is spitting on their customers' faces with these inferior looking cars because they know they can get away with it due to producing low volume. Ferrari won't last long if they continue to take advantage of their customers. Customers will soon stop buying such vulgar (EVO's words, not mine) cars as the F430 Spyder once other options (R8, new Esprit, etc) become more available.

    Please consider the Gallardo Spyder instead of the F430 Spyder.

    David



    david with all honesty your opinion is not shared by many. The f430 spider is one of the nicest if not the nicest convertible on the market. Wherever i seem to park my car wether it be beside an slr cgt gallardo spider and murci roadster the f430 got most of the attention. Reason being many people seem to love its look


    more attention than a murci roadster, cgt, and slr??? come on...more than an enzo while you're at it?

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    Quote:
    LB said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    There's no comparison. The F430 Spyder is IMHO the worst looking $200k convertible car on the market. Consider these styling faults, and yes I've seen one in person:

    1) ugly, hideous, front bumper.
    2) weird, after-market looking humps.
    3) cheap looking roll bars (not appropriate for a $200k convertible).
    4) rice, tacky, clear engine cover with "Godzilla" vents along the sides.
    5) rear diffuser looks after-market and not well integrated.

    If you want to know what a $200k convertible should look like take a look at the Bently GTC and Lambo Gallardo Spyder. No weird humps or cheap roll bars. EVO in the September issue says the Gallardo Spyder is better than the F430 Spyder due to the F430 Spyder's styling deficients. It's a shame Ferrari is spitting on their customers' faces with these inferior looking cars because they know they can get away with it due to producing low volume. Ferrari won't last long if they continue to take advantage of their customers. Customers will soon stop buying such vulgar (EVO's words, not mine) cars as the F430 Spyder once other options (R8, new Esprit, etc) become more available.

    Please consider the Gallardo Spyder instead of the F430 Spyder.

    David



    david with all honesty your opinion is not shared by many. The f430 spider is one of the nicest if not the nicest convertible on the market. Wherever i seem to park my car wether it be beside an slr cgt gallardo spider and murci roadster the f430 got most of the attention. Reason being many people seem to love its look


    more attention than a murci roadster, cgt, and slr??? come on...more than an enzo while you're at it?



    Only in America... Also, some fanboys who read predominantly US-based car forums (that's where all the Mitsu EVO worship also comes from). Nobody will disagree about the 430's looks, though (except for that dated nose).

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Tom G. said:
    What if Ferrari 430 spiders and Carrera GT's were readily available in the market place. How would consumers value the 430 spider's relative to the Carrera GT's in such a market? Your answer is, look to the rest of the world. The "market value" of a 430 spider in the rest of the world is half the price of the Carrera GT.



    There is a reason why knowledgeable people who buy and sell cars in the US place a low value on the the CGT. No one questions its perf. parameters but many question whether it is a car for public use. The Ferrari is just more fun to drive on a daily basis. When I drove the CGT, I always had a little sweat on my brow and I was totally immersed in driving the car within my limits because it was very easy to go beyond your limits in this car. And therein lies the difference between driving a 430 and a CGT.

    Regarding maintenance cost you are mistaken in believing that the CGT costs are about the same as a Ferrari. The CGT cost will be much higher.

    For an example, a clutch replacement will run about $20-25000. For a Ferrari $5000. At 20,000 miles the CGT will require a valve adjustment. The cost has not been determined but you can bet it will be very expensive since the engine will have to be removed and taken apart probably by a mechanic from Germany. The Ferrari has a 15,000 maintenance which will run about $1500.Also the CGT eats up tires and the costs will run about $2000 every 5000 miles.

    The CGT is a super performance car but if perf. is what you want in a track environment a Porsche GT3 Cup car would be cheaper and faster with about the same maintenance costs.



    Unfortunately, your analysis is predicated on the fact that those who are financially enabled are always purists in terms of motorsporting.

    This is hardly the case, I'm sure most of us are aware, when dubious poseurs drive around in their sports cars without any understanding of what they are capable of or what to do with them.

    Saying the F430 is "more fun" to drive than the CGT because the CGT puts some "sweat on your brow" is laughable from a person in my position. Maybe its my age, but that's my take and I consider myself as a motorsporting purist...

    The fact that the CGT goes beyond my limits is why I desire one more than any other car in the world. Life is about challenges not pushovers...

    Just me



    You should thank your lucky stars you are not able to afford one. Youth does have its advantages. Lack of wisdom and an inordinate amount of bravado.



    Let's not fool ourselves. Our hobby, whether it be on the track or on the discussion forum, is centered around a dangerous activity: motorsporting.
    It is the synthesis of mechanical prowess, with the hopes of pressing the laws of physics. I prefer to press these laws with my own mind and eye-hand coordination/muscle memory, rather than an inhibitive computer. Completely foolhardy, I agree

    The sensation we crave from speed is inheriently connected to our fear receptive neural patterns. It's similar to a roller-coaster. Of course, the sensation of the roller-coaster is placated by its inane safety features. Maybe that's why those old-rickety wooden ones sometimes give us the greatest thrills

    With that in mind, safety on the road is paramount and the lack of stability manegment on the CGT makes it unruly as a schlepper. But we're not here to schlep around in the CGT. We're here to push the limits of physics in a car, and PSM will inhibit any dirver input.

    Bravado, perhaps. Lack of wisdom? I would call it a better understanding of my own primal desires.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    sure hope the LSD is the solution, I cant imagine the 997 regressing when the base car and 4S etc are so good in the handling dept!



    The LSD definetely doesn't take away the heavy oversteer but it may help in some tight twists and turns. Unfortunately the lock rate is pretty low, so don't expect wonders from it. To benefit from the LSD on the 997 Turbo, you really have to be a very good driver.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    Quote:
    LB said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    There's no comparison. The F430 Spyder is IMHO the worst looking $200k convertible car on the market. Consider these styling faults, and yes I've seen one in person:

    1) ugly, hideous, front bumper.
    2) weird, after-market looking humps.
    3) cheap looking roll bars (not appropriate for a $200k convertible).
    4) rice, tacky, clear engine cover with "Godzilla" vents along the sides.
    5) rear diffuser looks after-market and not well integrated.

    If you want to know what a $200k convertible should look like take a look at the Bently GTC and Lambo Gallardo Spyder. No weird humps or cheap roll bars. EVO in the September issue says the Gallardo Spyder is better than the F430 Spyder due to the F430 Spyder's styling deficients. It's a shame Ferrari is spitting on their customers' faces with these inferior looking cars because they know they can get away with it due to producing low volume. Ferrari won't last long if they continue to take advantage of their customers. Customers will soon stop buying such vulgar (EVO's words, not mine) cars as the F430 Spyder once other options (R8, new Esprit, etc) become more available.

    Please consider the Gallardo Spyder instead of the F430 Spyder.

    David



    david with all honesty your opinion is not shared by many. The f430 spider is one of the nicest if not the nicest convertible on the market. Wherever i seem to park my car wether it be beside an slr cgt gallardo spider and murci roadster the f430 got most of the attention. Reason being many people seem to love its look


    more attention than a murci roadster, cgt, and slr??? come on...more than an enzo while you're at it?



    The difference of course is people stare at the Murci and Gallardo spiders, CGT, SLR, to admire their beauty. Like a platnium Patek Calatrava watch. People stare at the F430 spider because it's so vulgar, like a gold diamond encrusted Rolex watch.

    David

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    I will go definitely for the CGT but as RC said the car is unbelievebly hard to drive.

    I had the opportunity to follow one on the track few months ago and the driver was having a tough time to control it.

    After a bunch of laps we stopped into the pits and i asked him: Hey what's wrong? and he simply replied..."i'm out of talent. This car is very demanding. Is incredibly easy to lose the rear and is, like every sportcar, very crispy and darty. I'm scared...." and he was not the last one of the row.....

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    silvershadow said:
    I will go definitely for the CGT but as RC said the car is unbelievebly hard to drive.

    I had the opportunity to follow one on the track few months ago and the driver was having a tough time to control it.

    After a bunch of laps we stopped into the pits and i asked him: Hey what's wrong? and he simply replied..."i'm out of talent. This car is very demanding. Is incredibly easy to lose the rear and is, like every sportcar, very crispy and darty. I'm scared...." and he was not the last one of the row.....



    I believe many owners have the same problem but refuse to openly acknowledge it. I have written that driving the CGT is always done with sweat on the brow. You just do not know when or if you will lose it. Driving it at speed is like playing Russian roulette.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    silvershadow said:
    I will go definitely for the CGT but as RC said the car is unbelievably hard to drive.

    I had the opportunity to follow one on the track few months ago and the driver was having a tough time to control it.

    After a bunch of laps we stopped into the pits and i asked him: Hey what's wrong? and he simply replied..."I'm out of talent. This car is very demanding. Is incredibly easy to lose the rear and is, like every sportcar, very crispy and darty. I'm scared...." and he was not the last one of the row.....



    All this talk about the Carrera GT being "demanding" or "too difficult" to drive fast seems a bit exaggerated to me.

    I think that the misconception owes to too little seat time before pronouncing judgement and its causes are three-fold:

    1) Most Carrera GT owners have owned previous Porsche cars and are used to the way a 911 handles. Reactive instincts that one may have perfected while driving any high-powered 911 in the past are not especially helpful while driving a CGT. The most obvious problem tendency is planting ones foot hard on the gas at the exit of a queasy corner.

    In a fast 911 of yesteryear, stomping on the gas pedal when one felt the rear end misbehaving was the most reliable way to regain confidence of control. The trusted maxim was to "stand on the gas and steer like crazy." This advice was offered by professional racers and weekend drivers alike, and considered "the secret" to the magic of 911 handling dynamics. Even though it was strictly non-intuitive, everybody learned to do it.

    In a traditional fast (torquey) 911, the rear suspension geometry changes camber quite a bit with different engine outputs. More throttle squats the rear end which advantageously aligns the tire with the track surface, giving more total grip. In most cases the total grip increase is not entirely used up by the added torque and more cornering grip is then available. The Carrera GT has no such mechanism.

    The CGT has real race-car suspension design. The rear suspension has almost no camber change resulting from engine-induced deflections. Therefore, if one tries to correct an imperfectly driven (like most of mine) corner by adding throttle, one does not get more rear grip as a result. More gas causes less rear grip because the added traction demand uses up more of the available total rear grip to the disadvantage of cornering: causing the rear end to go even wider. What may have been good practice in a 911 is bad for maneuvering a Carrera GT.

    2) The other complication in Carrera GT driving is that it is really fast compared to almost any street-able 911 in memory. Because it is only burdened with 5 pounds for each of its horsepower, it speeds up between corners at a prodigious rate. It's very fast to pick up speed even during the course of a high speed corner. One has to be careful to not use too much throttle and then outrun the available cornering grip towards the exit of turns. The use of the Carrera GT throttle is much more of a mental exercise than in slower cars.

    A CGT driver needs to moderate the mid-corner throttle action a lot more carefully than the drivers of less powerful cars. Too much mid-corner gas in a Carrera GT can put one in a position where slowing down before the exit is mandatory for staying on the track. If one gets caught out in this situation, abruptly lifting the throttle may result in the back end going wide because the engine braking will demand some traction reserve that must be deducted from the cornering grip at the rear tires. A sure and steady right foot combined with total mental focus is most beneficial when driving any car with the speed potential of the Carrera GT.

    Things happen so much faster and there is impressively less time to think between events in a CGT because of its race-car level acceleration and very high corner exit speeds due to excellent grip.

    3) The "darty" steering description is an observation that traditional 911 drivers may initially share. I was warned by Hurley Haywood during my first ever track session in a CGT that the car has "very sensitive steering". He knew to warn me when he heard that the vast majority of my extensive track driving had been in 911 variants like my old 911RS/IROC car.

    This steering characteristic is a practical design necessity owing to the longer-than-911 wheelbase of the CGT and the requirement that it be tolerably easy to maneuver on the street. Real race cars can't turn into garage openings as well as street cars. I almost crashed my old 962 into a paddock building at Mid-Ohio while trying to enter my garage space. The 962 had a huge turning circle (and much slower steering ratio) appropriate to its track-only intended use. That sort of "real race-car" steering response would never do in a street car, so the CGT doesn't share it.

    Nevertheless, the quick steering of the CGT can be quickly accommodated with a little seat time.

    ------

    All in all, the car may be a real handful for some until one becomes acclimated to its potential pace. It's no different than moving up a class or two (or, three) in racing. It's unfair to dismiss the CGT as too demanding without a careful look at the comparison standard. Are the others way slower with much less speed potential and therefore easier to manage with more time to luxuriate between decisions? Are the comparison cars' quirks more familiar to their drivers which makes the CGT seem more alien?

    One way to make the Carrera GT seem less intimidating would be to adjust the rear roll-stiffener to the full soft position. Then, one could more easily man-handle (mismanage?) the throttle without quite as much over-steer as a result

    Porsche aimed to create a race-car experience for the street with the CGT and has done a fantastic job. I'm quite certain that a Can-Am race car equipped with some form of street-legal tires would not behave any better or be less "demanding" to drive.

    The Carrera GT requires some adaptation to drive well, but I consider that part of its value. I wouldn't enjoy my seat time in it nearly as much if I were convinced I had nothing left to learn from it.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    And as always: for Mike V. Thanks for the insight, it's a real pleasure reading you posts!

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Thanks a million Mike for the comprehensive write-up. Always great to get feedback from the horses mouth I have read your write-ups in the past and as always you are great at capturing the details.

    What people need to understand is that with performance cars one needs increased awareness and skills, regardless of how easy or difficult it is perceived to handle.
    Sitting on a 600+ HP (or less) super car should by default create a lot of respect and a touch of fear.
    It's such a cliché nowadays, but being wealthy doesn't make you super car capable. Performance car owners should at least take the time to get some proper driving lessons, if their intentions go beyond 30 MPH posing down Sunset Boulevard.

    Have fun, but have respect.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    W8MM:
    The Carrera GT requires some adaptation to drive well, but I consider that part of its value. I wouldn't enjoy my seat time in it nearly as much if I were convinced I had nothing left to learn from it.



    This is my mantra for motorsports

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Mike = knows what he's talking about!

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    silvershadow said:
    I will go definitely for the CGT but as RC said the car is unbelievebly hard to drive.

    I had the opportunity to follow one on the track few months ago and the driver was having a tough time to control it.

    After a bunch of laps we stopped into the pits and i asked him: Hey what's wrong? and he simply replied..."i'm out of talent. This car is very demanding. Is incredibly easy to lose the rear and is, like every sportcar, very crispy and darty. I'm scared...." and he was not the last one of the row.....



    I believe many owners have the same problem but refuse to openly acknowledge it. I have written that driving the CGT is always done with sweat on the brow. You just do not know when or if you will lose it. Driving it at speed is like playing Russian roulette.



    Any how many times did you drive the CGT? I remember the first time I drove an 80s 911, I had "sweat on the brow," mainly because of its clutch and no power anything. Not the next time. Driving any car at 200MPH is "playing Russian roulette."

    David

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Mike good write up but it only reinforces what most people say about the car. It is a handful and even very skilled drivers could easily find themselves in the weeds despite being careful.

    There is a considerable difference between respecting the power of a car and being able to manage it.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Mike good write up but it only reinforces what most people say about the car. It is a handful and even very skilled drivers could easily find themselves in the weeds despite being careful.

    There is a considerable difference between respecting the power of a car and being able to manage it.



    My, my, Nick

    You have such a dreary pessimist's view of the world, ... when it suits your position. Yet your position above doesn't hold any water.

    Managing the power of a car is the direct result of respecting it, combined with knowledge of how it wants to be driven. Unless, of course, one is completely irresponsible or clueless. Is that your view of Carrera GT owners?

    Respecting the car will allow for enough high quality seat time to adapt to the proper driving techniques. After that accomplishment, the "skilled driver" you mention will actually posses some relevant skill.

    If any driver finds themselves in the weeds so easily in a Carrera GT, that driver was neither careful nor very skilled.


    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Being lucky enough to own both a CGT and an F430 coupe, I can unequivically say that the CGT is in a different league than the F430. The CGT is a bit more demanding to drive but it's not nearly the monster that people make it out to be.

    That being said I think Nick has hit the nail on the head with his comparison of these two cars. The CGT is definitely more for enthusiasts and requires a lot more attention compared to the F430.

    Amir

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Mike wrote "Managing the power of a car is the direct result of respecting it, combined with knowledge of how it wants to be driven. Unless, of course, one is completely irresponsible or clueless. Is that your view of Carrera GT owners?"

    I have never indicated that owners are clueless or irresponsible (though many probably do not have the necessary skill level for the car as it is configured). What I am saying is the car will bit you unexpectedly because of it handling characteristic's and power.When it does there usually is very little that an owner can do but expect the worse.

    Amir you are right. I honestly don't know how the comparison between the 430 and CGT has even come up. I have driven both on several occasions and clearly the CGT is a much better performer. They are totally two different cars.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    silvershadow said:
    I will go definitely for the CGT but as RC said the car is unbelievebly hard to drive.



    It isn't hard to drive...if you're a very skilled driver and if you're willing to LEARN. It is just a very dangerous car for beginners in my opinion and it is a car which does NOT make the driver faster, on the contrary. To benefit from the less weight, more powerful engine and the racecar-like behaviour, the driver has to be very skilled to be actually very fast in this car. Otherwise any halfway skilled 997 Turbo driver would bust his a.. on the track.

    The CGT is a great car but the driver has to be great too, this isn't a car to play around with, this is a car you have to respect and to start to learn to control it at the limit. Take it as a challenge if you want. Some cars may actually allow drivers to be faster than they would be in other cars, the CGT is more of a purist car, it isn't too forgiving but if you know how to control it, it probably provides you with the best ride in your life.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    silvershadow said:
    I will go definitely for the CGT but as RC said the car is unbelievebly hard to drive.



    It isn't hard to drive...if you're a very skilled driver and if you're willing to LEARN. It is just a very dangerous car for beginners in my opinion and it is a car which does NOT make the driver faster, on the contrary. To benefit from the less weight, more powerful engine and the racecar-like behaviour, the driver has to be very skilled to be actually very fast in this car. Otherwise any halfway skilled 997 Turbo driver would bust his a.. on the track.

    The CGT is a great car but the driver has to be great too, this isn't a car to play around with, this is a car you have to respect and to start to learn to control it at the limit. Take it as a challenge if you want. Some cars may actually allow drivers to be faster than they would be in other cars, the CGT is more of a purist car, it isn't too forgiving but if you know how to control it, it probably provides you with the best ride in your life.



    RC - It can't be explained any better than that!! Thank you.

    Amir

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    I wholeheartedly agree. It is a purist car.

    Re: Carrera GT vs. F430 Spider Dilemma!!?? Help....

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Mike wrote "Managing the power of a car is the direct result of respecting it, combined with knowledge of how it wants to be driven. Unless, of course, one is completely irresponsible or clueless. Is that your view of Carrera GT owners?"

    I have never indicated that owners are clueless or irresponsible (though many probably do not have the necessary skill level for the car as it is configured). What I am saying is the car will bit you unexpectedly because of it handling characteristic's and power.When it does there usually is very little that an owner can do but expect the worse.

    Amir you are right. I honestly don't know how the comparison between the 430 and CGT has even come up. I have driven both on several occasions and clearly the CGT is a much better performer. They are totally two different cars.



    There is nothing intrinsic to the CGT's handling characteristic (it's mid-engine for heaven's sake) or power that will make it "bit you unexpectedtly." It really depends on the driver, doesn't it.

    David

     
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