Crown

Just some pics for you.

Interesting event with main topic: Dieselgate 

Blueflame

And look, who was there for the first time since years...

Blueflame

Love to be a fly on those walls.

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

Isn't Porsche a wholly owned subsidiary of VW? Why do they have shareholder meetings?

noone1:

Isn't Porsche a wholly owned subsidiary of VW? Why do they have shareholder meetings?

Looks like it was a meeting for Porsche Automobile Holding SE, the entity controlled by the Porsche clan which in turn owns 30+% of VW and effectively controls VW since that stake somehow gives them 50+% of the voting rights.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_SE

Those sneaky Germans  It is Porsche that controls VW, not the opposite way around as we have been led to believe.

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

bluelines:

Those sneaky Germans  It is Porsche that controls VW, not the opposite way around as we have been led to believe.

 Exactly. Actually Porsche Automobil Holding SE, they own over 52% of the VW shares. 

Funny: I mentioned this a couple of times on Rennteam over the past years but nobody seems to have taken notice of it.  

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

noone1:

Isn't Porsche a wholly owned subsidiary of VW? Why do they have shareholder meetings?

Porsche is a part of VW Group but they are corporation with their own stocks.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

If I see those criminal faces still sitting up on the podium I feel like to vomit!

Unfortunately non of them is going to be sentenced. Corruption and business crime on its highest level. They all should be behind bars until the end of their days. I like that at least the US acts stronger and keeps Oliver Schmidt in prison. Hopefully all those faces up on the Podium will have to follow him!

Porsche Automobile Holding SE indeed owns 52% of VW AG, which in turn own 100% of Porsche AG the operating company.

This was the shareholder meeting of Porsche SE, with 100% of the common shares owned by the Porsche-Piech clan and the non-voting preference shares owned by outside investors, hence the annual meeting.

Outside investors therefore have no real say, which is why the whole event is a bit of a farce anyway.

Still, I was there and can tell you management got more than an earful from outside shareholders on "Dieselgate", given that the 52% holding in VW AG represents more than 95% of Porsche SE's assets and the € 25 billion price tag of "Dieselgate" obviously has had a profound impact on the value of this asset...

Management got slammed on the perceived conflict of interest inherent in the dual roles played by many execs acting for both Porsche SE and VW AG, in the face of this scandal.

By the way - the costs of this farce-event were 5.300.000,- € 

But as Olli said...a tough day for the men on the podium. 

Blueflame

Indeed Porsche controls VW and not the other way around. I wonder if the Porsche/Piëch Family had any knowledge about the emissions issues, the family is 100% routed in the finest engineering so pretty hard to think they would have any knowledge whatsoever, rather, they would have pushed for a proper solution. Now, the autocratic nature of VW where it would seem from what one reads that employees had to cheat to meet arbitrary targets is another matter. Any ways, and leaving aside who else has done the same thing, and leaving aside the basic fact that everyone knows that the basic emissions tests are not the real world, the whole diesel thing is a sad day for the German automotive industry. That said, the fines imposed by the US are wholly unconscionable and do not fit the crime whatsoever, just my opinion...

Dr Porsche is not a hands on guy, he doesn't care about the day to day operation of the company.

Dr Piech on the other hand is very much a hands on guy, got fingers into every nooks of the company. And those scandals pretty much happened during his watch, the software was developed during his era, of course he knows everything.

Whoopsy:

Dr Porsche is not a hands on guy, he doesn't care about the day to day operation of the company.

Dr Piech on the other hand is very much a hands on guy, got fingers into every nooks of the company. And those scandals pretty much happened during his watch, the software was developed during his era, of course he knows everything.

 

I would be very surprised if Piech didn't know. Piech always was the "boss", so I doubt that engineers (or upper management) would have worked "around" him without telling him anything. Especially since the whole ECU software thingie concerned various brands, not only VW.

Piech is a car guy. He picked up his Carrera GT (and his 918 if I'm not mistaken) personally in Leipzig and drove them home to Austria. In his position, he could have had these cars delivered to any corner of this planet. I cannot say I don't sympathize with him, he seems to appreciate engineering more than marketing but on the other hand, I also heard stories about him that cost is a major factor driving him as well. So... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Piech is a complicated man, but his passion and drive certainly gave his cars character. Unsurprisingly he ruffled a lot of feathers along the way.  It is ironic that the man who was so devoted to the development of Porsche racing regardless of cost would, in the twilight of his career, turn a blind eye on the emissions software scam.  OTOH perhaps he never believed the need for emission control was a legitimate pursuit and as such he had no obligation to conform?

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

I kind of get the feeling that the whole software scam was some sort of proof of concept of the engineers what can be done by software only. Don't tell me that a company like VW couldn't work around this problem and a few EUR more production cost wouldn't have killed them. They wanted to use this software to prove a point, in my opinion and it failed because software is a bitch and at some point, someone will find out, decompile it, whatever. 

I am pretty sure that all car manufacturers are using software "tricks" and not only for Diesel cars... 

In Germany (and probably some other countries as well), Diesel sales have dropped substantially...not need to repeat that for gasoline operated cars (even if it could be a good start to make a switch to ELVs...).

Further restriction of emissions (incl. noise emissions!!!) is the future of automobiles and there is nothing we can do against it. People feel personally "attacked" by higher emissions and louder noise levels, something we haven't seen that strongly in the past. So it is only a matter of time before we are going to see even stricter emissions limitations. Up to a point where only hybrids and/or ELVs will be able to fulfill the new regulations. It is just a matter of time.

I enjoy my R8 and my C4 GTS Cab as long as I can because the future is clearly electric and (almost) quiet. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Pretty happy to see diesel sales drop, never liked it...

SciFrog:

Pretty happy to see diesel sales drop, never liked it...

I never liked Diesels because I never believed they are "clean" but I can see why Diesel engines are attractive to many buyers. The SQ7 I drove recently was amazing. Superb performance combined with a pretty low (14 l / 100 km...full throttle on the Autobahn, though not faster than 240 kph due to All-Season tires) Diesel consumption. My wife's Cayenne S Diesel is also pretty good when it comes to Diesel consumption and performance is acceptable for a family truck. Torque is amazing, truck feels more powerful than it actually is.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

I kind of get the feeling that the whole software scam was some sort of proof of concept of the engineers what can be done by software only. Don't tell me that a company like VW couldn't work around this problem and a few EUR more production cost wouldn't have killed them. They wanted to use this software to prove a point, in my opinion and it failed because software is a bitch and at some point, someone will find out, decompile it, whatever. 

I am pretty sure that all car manufacturers are using software "tricks" and not only for Diesel cars... 

In Germany (and probably some other countries as well), Diesel sales have dropped substantially...not need to repeat that for gasoline operated cars (even if it could be a good start to make a switch to ELVs...).

Further restriction of emissions (incl. noise emissions!!!) is the future of automobiles and there is nothing we can do against it. People feel personally "attacked" by higher emissions and louder noise levels, something we haven't seen that strongly in the past. So it is only a matter of time before we are going to see even stricter emissions limitations. Up to a point where only hybrids and/or ELVs will be able to fulfill the new regulations. It is just a matter of time.

I enjoy my R8 and my C4 GTS Cab as long as I can because the future is clearly electric and (almost) quiet. 

 

I fear that you are right, but hope you're not..... I'm young enough that I might need to end my days driving around in some kind of "golf cart "

996FourEss:

Indeed Porsche controls VW and not the other way around. I wonder if the Porsche/Piëch Family had any knowledge about the emissions issues, the family is 100% routed in the finest engineering so pretty hard to think they would have any knowledge whatsoever, rather, they would have pushed for a proper solution. Now, the autocratic nature of VW where it would seem from what one reads that employees had to cheat to meet arbitrary targets is another matter. Any ways, and leaving aside who else has done the same thing, and leaving aside the basic fact that everyone knows that the basic emissions tests are not the real world, the whole diesel thing is a sad day for the German automotive industry. That said, the fines imposed by the US are wholly unconscionable and do not fit the crime whatsoever, just my opinion...

Exactly. To think the fines are correct or even that the emission tests are of value one needs to believe in the huge lie that is climate change so screw the Diesel scandal. Every automaker is forced by These regulations to do their best to cheat the system. They have no choice. The fines are just another climate tax. It only hurts consumers.  Companies don't pay taxes only consumers do. 

Leawood911:

. The fines are just another climate tax. It only hurts consumers.  Companies don't pay taxes only consumers do. 

It's cute that you think VW was going to pass those "fine" savings along to consumers. They hadn't passed them along yet, so I'm not sure how long you planned on waiting for that juicy "rebate".

Every car company has been finding ways to get around the emissions tests since these started in the 70's (at least in the US). Here's a random, very partial list of tricks different companies have used:

• Distributor retarder on '71 and later Mopar cars: since the test back then was exhaust emissions at idle, the distributor would retard the timing to clean up the exhaust (at the cost of rougher idle); the minute you stepped on the gas, timing went back to "normal"
• Air injection on most 70's cars: all these did was dilute the exhaust gases with fresh air pumped into the exhaust, to reduce the concentration but not the actual amount of harmful gases emitted
• Mid-80's GM "skip-shift" solenoid on manual transmissions: under light acceleration (i.e., during the test), the solenoid block the 2nd gear gate, forcing a 1-4 shift to reduce fuel consumption and emissions. Accelerate harder and now, counter-intuitively, 2nd is available
• Modern small displacement turbo engines: the biggest fakery of all

For some reason, software programs intended to perform similar fakery are viewed differently then mechanical devices. In a way, I don't disagree that there is something more egregious here, but I have a hard time putting my finger on the reason. Is it that the intent is so obvious because it is program code? Or is it the scale of the VW case? I just started reading a book on the topic ("Faster, Higher, Farther: The VW Scandal"); maybe that will shed some light...

I believe that the difference is that the ECU modification only activated when the car was being tested for fuel economy and not during normal operation, so it was cheating the test, performing differently under test conditions than real world conditions. Not that it makes much difference though as you say, those other tricks still try to give an adulterated emissions readout even if the car is not modified just when its tested.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

noone1:

Leawood911:

. The fines are just another climate tax. It only hurts consumers.  Companies don't pay taxes only consumers do. 

It's cute that you think VW was going to pass those "fine" savings along to consumers. They hadn't passed them along yet, so I'm not sure how long you planned on waiting for that juicy "rebate".

Economics much?  I did not mean they would give us the money. That is a silly conclusion. I meant that like all fines and taxes levied against companies it is the consumers who pay by facing higher prices. Is that clear enough?

A 'cheat' like that is only possible because of the unrealistic test cycle. Absolutely no one on earth drive like that in the real world.

It just means the testing agencies need to develop a real world test.

Whoopsy:

A 'cheat' like that is only possible because of the unrealistic test cycle. Absolutely no one on earth drive like that in the real world.

It just means the testing agencies need to develop a real world test.

 

They already changed the test in Europe (not sure how real world it is but it is much closer to the US test) and this is why some manufacturers will have problems to cope with it. 

Not sure how long Diesel cars will survive over here...the private market is bad already and even corporate customers seem to have changed their view on Diesels.

I guess car manufacturers have to rethink their Diesel strategy and everything points to gasoline cars with some sort of hybrid tech in exchange. Will probably make them more expensive (and heavier) too. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

There have been numerous discussions regarding the "last" N/A and we all know that that one is not yet built. But following RC's reasoning I'm glad to declaim that I, on Thursday, finally will get the keys to the very last Panamera 4s Diesel.....

The farmer:

There have been numerous discussions regarding the "last" N/A and we all know that that one is not yet built. But following RC's reasoning I'm glad to declaim that I, on Thursday, finally will get the keys to the very last Panamera 4s Diesel.....

It may actually really be the last Diesel from Porsche...  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

It may actually really be the last Diesel from Porsche...  

Hurrah! Finally Porsche does something I want them to .

Piëch transferred the bulk of his 14.7 percent stake, reportedly worth roughly 1 billion euros, in Porsche SE, his extended family’s investment vehicle, to other members of the Porsche and Piëch clan. Porsche owns just over half of VW’s voting stock.

“Following the completed transfer of Piëch has resigned his office as member of the board effective December 8,” Porsche SE in a statement Wednesday.

Despite the billions amassed by his family through the dynasty his grandfather Ferdinand Porsche built, Piëch said the three things most important to him in life were “Volkswagen, family and money – in that order.”

Piëch’s departure from the board marks the final chapter in the saga of Ferdinand Piëch, a gifted engineer and ruthless manager whose ambitions as Volkswagen CEO and later chairman helped turn the German carmaker into a global automotive powerhouse.

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region