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Re: 4th Model line.
Salon?
Can I get my hair done? Come to think of it, I also need a tan and a bikini wax
Seriously, front engined Porsche saloon? They're not going to make it look like a 911 with 4 doors are they?
Why do they need to capitalize on the saloon market? Aren't 911's and boxsters good enough? I mean I can understand Mercedes with the A-class, the SLR or the Maybach, but Porsche? A company which is worldwide known for making exotic sportscars?
Whats next a Ferrari luxury MPV?
Can I get my hair done? Come to think of it, I also need a tan and a bikini wax
Seriously, front engined Porsche saloon? They're not going to make it look like a 911 with 4 doors are they?
Why do they need to capitalize on the saloon market? Aren't 911's and boxsters good enough? I mean I can understand Mercedes with the A-class, the SLR or the Maybach, but Porsche? A company which is worldwide known for making exotic sportscars?
Whats next a Ferrari luxury MPV?
Feb 18, 2004 10:29:30 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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CF
Re: 4th Model line.
no way, I don't know if my heart is going to be able to take all this. A sedan instead of the coupe, do you know for reasonably for sure or just a new rumor? if so, do you know if it will be based on the Phaeton platform? I take it thats the surprise at Paris... I can hear them saying: "we know its not a sportcar but its a sporty car isn't that good enough?" 
Feb 18, 2004 11:02:23 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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CF
Re: 4th Model line.
Well, I guess times change and we should move on and adapt, but its hard to accept nevertheless for those who grew up with the "Porsche" of Ferry's times dreaming of one day owning a Porsche, instead of just another great sportcar. How ironic do the words of the man himself, Ferry, sound now during these times:
"To be classed among the top makes of car must give great pleasure to any car manufacturer - to us especially, since the trade name Porsche has been in existence for only 30 years. As everyone knows, my father and I were previously engaged in developing cars for other manufacturers. Furthermore, Porsche is certainly the smallest German car manufacturing company and one of the smallest in the world in terms of production or turnover. If we begin by considering the popularity of a make of car rather than economic greatness, to be classed among the 'great' names is certainly a compliment to the sports car, since from the outset only SPORTS CARS have been manufactured under the name Porsche and this will ALWAYS BE THE CASE.
Since the beginnings of car manufacture, people have wanted to own and drive sports and racing cars above all. Car enthusiasts delight more in the sporting successes of 'their' make of car than in the numbers sold. On the other hand, a smaller firm is in a much better position to act and react with flexibility, for instance when it comes to developing a new model successfully or putting an improved version on the road. For this reason, Porsche will never become a mass producer and will preserve the exclusivity of the sports car from Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen.
I am optimistic too as to the future of the sports car- although people who envy our position think that such a 'luxury' is out of place in these times of restricted energy. As a matter of fact, thanks to its better aerodynamics and lighter weight, a sports car uses less fuel at any speed than a comparable saloon: it is 15% to 20% more economical to drive a sports car. My optimism is not, however, based solely on such economic calculations. Even in the unlikely event of the car disappearing one day from the road, we still have the sports car. If we take the horse as an example: as a working animal it is practically non-existent, but in the field of leisure and sport there are many more horses today than ever before.
Dr.-Ing.h.c. Ferdinand Porsche"
Oh well, times have to change I guess. Pure sportcar companies that live and preach the "sportcar" philosophy against other makers and race to improve their breed are a thing of the past and can't survive in todays world were companies and cars are all the same with a different badge more and more. At least Porsche still makes great sportcars.
Sorry, end of the nostalgic rant
"To be classed among the top makes of car must give great pleasure to any car manufacturer - to us especially, since the trade name Porsche has been in existence for only 30 years. As everyone knows, my father and I were previously engaged in developing cars for other manufacturers. Furthermore, Porsche is certainly the smallest German car manufacturing company and one of the smallest in the world in terms of production or turnover. If we begin by considering the popularity of a make of car rather than economic greatness, to be classed among the 'great' names is certainly a compliment to the sports car, since from the outset only SPORTS CARS have been manufactured under the name Porsche and this will ALWAYS BE THE CASE.
Since the beginnings of car manufacture, people have wanted to own and drive sports and racing cars above all. Car enthusiasts delight more in the sporting successes of 'their' make of car than in the numbers sold. On the other hand, a smaller firm is in a much better position to act and react with flexibility, for instance when it comes to developing a new model successfully or putting an improved version on the road. For this reason, Porsche will never become a mass producer and will preserve the exclusivity of the sports car from Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen.
I am optimistic too as to the future of the sports car- although people who envy our position think that such a 'luxury' is out of place in these times of restricted energy. As a matter of fact, thanks to its better aerodynamics and lighter weight, a sports car uses less fuel at any speed than a comparable saloon: it is 15% to 20% more economical to drive a sports car. My optimism is not, however, based solely on such economic calculations. Even in the unlikely event of the car disappearing one day from the road, we still have the sports car. If we take the horse as an example: as a working animal it is practically non-existent, but in the field of leisure and sport there are many more horses today than ever before.
Dr.-Ing.h.c. Ferdinand Porsche"
Oh well, times have to change I guess. Pure sportcar companies that live and preach the "sportcar" philosophy against other makers and race to improve their breed are a thing of the past and can't survive in todays world were companies and cars are all the same with a different badge more and more. At least Porsche still makes great sportcars.
Sorry, end of the nostalgic rant
Feb 19, 2004 8:06:12 AM
- brunner
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Carlos from Spain
Re: 4th Model line.
"In the future, Porsche won't be known as the maker of sports cars, it will be known as a maker of very sporty cars". Or something like that. Wiedeking dixit.
I'm a bit sad...
I like the ideea of a very good sporty sedan, better even than the Audi S8, but it kind of spoils my dreams from back when i was only a little child, playing with a toy polizei 911...
But hey, dreams are made to be spoiled by the realities of life, right?
I wonder what F.A. Porsche has to say about this, anybody asked him?
I'm a bit sad...
I like the ideea of a very good sporty sedan, better even than the Audi S8, but it kind of spoils my dreams from back when i was only a little child, playing with a toy polizei 911...
But hey, dreams are made to be spoiled by the realities of life, right?
I wonder what F.A. Porsche has to say about this, anybody asked him?
Re: 4th Model line.
Quote:
EricAlain said:
If it's a 4 door sedan I'm a bit disappointed.... competiton is tough out there .... there are many very fine makers ....
Not disappointed at all. The only right decision!
Look at me, a hardcore Porsche addict: I bought a Mercedes E55 AMG. And I know many people who don't like a SUV but would love to drive a "family" Porsche. The 4-door sedan is a great addition to the current model line.
If they make a real Porsche out of it and I have no doubts, it'll be a huge success.
I just hope that Porsche adds the right power (and weight) to their 4-door sedan. And even if the rumors are true that the 4-door sedan is based on the current Bentley GT, I hope that Porsche offers a lower weight and better driving dynamics.
Re: 4th Model line.
I think this is a smart move from Porsche, let's just hope this new sedan to have a much better look than the Cayenne.
For sure the engine will be the new V8 Turbo maybe tuned to +500Hp so it will match the new M5 and AMG 55 easily.
I just hope the design to be charming and agressive
J.Seven
For sure the engine will be the new V8 Turbo maybe tuned to +500Hp so it will match the new M5 and AMG 55 easily.
I just hope the design to be charming and agressive
J.Seven
Re: 4th Model line.
My concern is, it's going to be difficult to keep the product different from the "mainstream". So far a Porsche is a Porsche and you recognize it in a split of a second...
Trying to compete with BMW, MB, Lexus, Bentley, Maserati, Jaguar,... it's a complete different ball game. These makers are on their own turf, their core business....and they are very good at it.
I'm sure Porsche will come with a distinctive product and they will raise the bar even higher with a "ultra-high" performance sedan...
Re: 4th Model line.
Quote:
EricAlain said:
My concern is, it's going to be difficult to keep the product different from the "mainstream". So far a Porsche is a Porsche and you recognize it in a split of a second...
Trying to compete with BMW, MB, Lexus, Bentley, Maserati, Jaguar,... it's a complete different ball game. These makers are on their own turf, their core business....and they are very good at it.
I'm sure Porsche will come with a distinctive product and they will raise the bar even higher with a "ultra-high" performance sedan...
I seem to recall Wiedeking saying as much prior to the Cayenne introduction. The context was a discussion of all the research Porsche had done indicating 911 owners typically also had an SUV and a luxury 4 door sedan. At that time Wiedeking said the 4 door luxury sedan market was too competitive with too many great sedans out there already and profit margins that were too thin (or words to that effect
). I guess he changed his mind. 
I think this is the right move. This is a market segment, like the SUV, that Porsche can move a good volume of cars in and it should be stable. They will deliver a superior product at a premium price and they will find buyers.
Re: 4th Model line.
Doens't have to be that different.
Look at the Cayenne, it looks so similar to the Touareg and yet is unmistakebly Porsche as well.
SUV segment was pretty much flooded when Porsche announced the Cayenne. The good think was that there was no rival in terms of power, most powerful SUV before Porsche were 350hp max.
Where it's gonna be quite a challenge is that, power sedan already exists.
Look at the Cayenne, it looks so similar to the Touareg and yet is unmistakebly Porsche as well.
SUV segment was pretty much flooded when Porsche announced the Cayenne. The good think was that there was no rival in terms of power, most powerful SUV before Porsche were 350hp max.
Where it's gonna be quite a challenge is that, power sedan already exists.
Re: 4th Model line.
I agree with you Fanch. If Porsche goes this direction, I would like to see the following: Navigation (that is state of the art), air conditioned seats, 20 inch wheels standard, heated seats, ect... what I am trying to say is make everything standard. Porsche has this idea that everyone will be willing to put out lots of money on options. I am not willing to pay for these as options. I just purchased a new A8 and its a great car with so many standard features. If Porsche is going to raise the bar, they better understand that it is a different market out there for sedans. There are plenty of great sedans today with lots of standard equipment.
Re: 4th Model line.
I think it will have enough power but they will probably not try to do the same SUV power thing with the sedan. Mercedes and others already have that game. The superiority will be in steering feel and handling. Probably a new level of rigidity to the body structure as well. Porsche's work with ThyssenKrupp is really remarkable in this area. I bet we see several innovations in the body structure.
Re: 4th Model line.
Hi GM,
You're absolutely right, once Dr Wiedeking said the sedan segment was very competitive and margins are thin, this is why Porsche had decided to built the Cayenne.
I believe this is still the case ....
I'm sure Porsche can make a superior product BUT what will be the cost of it.
The SUV segment is far less crowded than the sedan one, volumes are still very small and even if you only sell 35,000 units you're a "significant" player... and other players are in the same situation
BMW is producing 58,000 7 Series and around 250,000 5 Series (and only 100,000 X5) so depending on the size of this sedan it will compete in one or the other segment.
"Big boys" like MB or BMW have a huge advantage called "economies of scale"... they can spread R&D and other expenses over a much larger amount of cars...
This my only concern as a financial analyst... as a Porsche fanatic I'm very happy because I'll be able to buy one and use it as a daily driver with kids on board...
Re: 4th Model line.
Quote:
as a Porsche fanatic I'm very happy because I'll be able to buy one and use it as a daily driver with kids on board...
Wil it better than an A class? Hein Eric
Good point about the economy of scale.
The S600, S65AMG, 760Li etc. are all technology savoir faire windows for the big firms. I don't think they make that much profit with them.
I wouldn't be surprised if, in Europe at least, the best selling models are the S320cdi and the 730D.
Which is why it would make sense for Porsche to repeat the VW experience (re touareg) and use the Bentley platform or Phaeton or whatever...
Feb 19, 2004 3:12:42 PM
- Captain Bady
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Futch
Re: 4th Model line.
Quote:
Fanch said:
Good point about the economy of scale.
The S600, S65AMG, 760Li etc. are all technology savoir faire windows for the big firms. I don't think they make that much profit with them.
Certainly not, but they make a lot of profit from the more "basic" versions such as the S500, S320CDI e S400CDI.
For MB it cost 20 % more to build a S class than a A Class. But one is sold at 100, the other at 30!
These top version are used to give "prestige" to the model, nothing more.
I would like to know if the Porsche Sedan will depreciate as S class and 7 serie do. If it does, I wonder that the prestige of Porsche will drop too...
Feb 19, 2004 3:17:42 PM
- Captain Bady
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RC
Re: 4th Model line.
Quote:
RC said:
I just hope that Porsche adds the right power (and weight) to their 4-door sedan. And even if the rumors are true that the 4-door sedan is based on the current Bentley GT, I hope that Porsche offers a lower weight and better driving dynamics.
I guess the engines will be the ones on the Cayenne and for the driving dynamics, just look at the actual Cayenne how fast it is on track, immagine a lower 4 door sedan.
I would ask my self if it is going to be RWD or 4WD! sigh...!
Feb 19, 2004 4:33:53 PM
- EricAlain
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Re: 4th Model line.
The cost difference between an A Class and an S Class is much much higher than 20% ... I would say around 3.5-4.0x
I believe, operating margin on an A class is close to 3-4% while on an S class it's around 10%.
The current generation of A class is a disaster in terms of profitability.... the car is expensive to produce and they spent a lot on R&D. It's the first front WD MB.... and obviously they lacked experience.
Generally speaking a car maker is making the best margins on mid to high-end of the range.
For Porsche, it's different with the juciest margins on the 911 TT, GT2 and GT3.
Feb 19, 2004 10:04:25 PM
- doncapecod
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Re: 4th Model line.
I think EricAlain hit the nail on the head in his earlier post. Porsche did make the Cayenne distinctly Porsche primarily with the front end. However they will have a tremendous challenge with the front of a 4 door sedan. Certainly they cannot make it similar to the Cayenne (ugh), but I believe they DO have to make it distinctly Porsche. An SUV is box on wheels no matter how it's designed. Let's see how the designers at Porsche make their sedan.
Also, what do you think they will call it? Alpha or numeric?
Maybe we should have a guessing contest or something.
Also, what do you think they will call it? Alpha or numeric?
Maybe we should have a guessing contest or something.
Feb 19, 2004 10:11:35 PM
- fritz
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Feb 20, 2004 3:30:35 AM
- bostonmini
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Re: 4th Model line.
What will they use? I hope an A6 platform, or A8, because they are already aluminum:) dont use the stupid VW ones! That engine is so perfect for this! its at 450-500 NOW, imagine where in 3 years! And are they showing a prototype? What will they be doing for 3 years?
Feb 20, 2004 5:46:59 AM
- brunner
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Re: 4th Model line.
a few things I'd like to toll in on this issue...
A) I am a porsche purist... and a life-long fan of Porsche and Porsche memorabilia... my homes are like Porsche shrines.
I love the looks, feel, and abilities of Porsche cars and always have... my first Porsche is my June 1997 built 1997 Boxster... one of the last to be built in Stuttgart... my second Porsche is my first Turbo Porsche car... a 2004 Cayenne Turbo with more options than should be legal... I intend to rival Jerry one day in the size of my collection (he's my Porsche hero)
B) I was of the thinking that a Porsche SUV was wrong... till I saw that Porsche made good on their promise of "putting the sport back into Sport Utility"....
C) Porsche has been tolling around with the idea of a 4-door car for 30+ years... one of the "birthday wish" cars was a stretched 911 for the doctor... if I'm not mistaken it was the 3rd one of the series of 5...
I don't see it happening honestly... it will remain in my opinion another in a long line of Porsche rumored cars that never make it to the assembly line... like the hardtop Boxster(this idea IMO is the most retarded of all... cuz it couldnt be called a Boxster anymore, cuz the name Boxster was derived from BOX from boxer engine... and STER from roadster car... Boxster not BoxCoupe), turbo Boxster, oh yeah... the 993 Speedster... the list goes on and on.
If it does happen, A) it will be YEARS away... B) I doubt they will mess it up... its Porsche... they make magic happen... Harm Lagay and his crew design the most beautiful cars in the business PERIOD... and even when the public doesn't catch on immediately... the designs grow on ppl like no other in the industry...
The Quadraporte is a cool looking car... I'm a fan of the old ones... and like the new one... tested one... its underpowered... the M5's are fun cars... but the new 5 Series body is hideous... it looks like a Japanese take on the Lincoln LS... its the ugliest thing BMW has ever put in sheetmetal... even uglier than the Z3... as for the AMG E55... very pretty car... lots of juice... but... STILL no stick... big mistakes for our brethren across town in Stuttgart.
Nu
A) I am a porsche purist... and a life-long fan of Porsche and Porsche memorabilia... my homes are like Porsche shrines.
I love the looks, feel, and abilities of Porsche cars and always have... my first Porsche is my June 1997 built 1997 Boxster... one of the last to be built in Stuttgart... my second Porsche is my first Turbo Porsche car... a 2004 Cayenne Turbo with more options than should be legal... I intend to rival Jerry one day in the size of my collection (he's my Porsche hero)
B) I was of the thinking that a Porsche SUV was wrong... till I saw that Porsche made good on their promise of "putting the sport back into Sport Utility"....
C) Porsche has been tolling around with the idea of a 4-door car for 30+ years... one of the "birthday wish" cars was a stretched 911 for the doctor... if I'm not mistaken it was the 3rd one of the series of 5...
I don't see it happening honestly... it will remain in my opinion another in a long line of Porsche rumored cars that never make it to the assembly line... like the hardtop Boxster(this idea IMO is the most retarded of all... cuz it couldnt be called a Boxster anymore, cuz the name Boxster was derived from BOX from boxer engine... and STER from roadster car... Boxster not BoxCoupe), turbo Boxster, oh yeah... the 993 Speedster... the list goes on and on.
If it does happen, A) it will be YEARS away... B) I doubt they will mess it up... its Porsche... they make magic happen... Harm Lagay and his crew design the most beautiful cars in the business PERIOD... and even when the public doesn't catch on immediately... the designs grow on ppl like no other in the industry...
The Quadraporte is a cool looking car... I'm a fan of the old ones... and like the new one... tested one... its underpowered... the M5's are fun cars... but the new 5 Series body is hideous... it looks like a Japanese take on the Lincoln LS... its the ugliest thing BMW has ever put in sheetmetal... even uglier than the Z3... as for the AMG E55... very pretty car... lots of juice... but... STILL no stick... big mistakes for our brethren across town in Stuttgart.
Nu
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