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    997 TT: Passionless superiority

    I traded my 997 C2S for a 996 TT X50 last year because I wanted better track performance and more power. The X50 is a great car; it has been tuned and keeps up with GT2s and GT3s on the Nordschleife in the dry and pulls away from them rapidly in the wet.

    The X50 also excels at high-speed autobahn travel, where it has clocked about 15,000 kilometres in the last six months. During that time only three cars or bikes have been able to keep up with the relentless pace that the Turbo delivers in effortless comfort and safety at theupper-limits.
    The key to unleashing the 996 TTs greatness is the H&R suspension and sway bars. The car is low, planted and sticks ferociously to the chosen line in all situations. But the 997 C2S is more fun on a twisty back road. RWD provides a satisfying sports car experience that the clinical precision of the Turbo cannot equal.

    The 997 TT may do everything slightly better than my tuned X50, but at what cost to true driving satisfaction? Despite the practical advantages and high-speed superiority of the 997 TT, the car does not stir my passion and senses in the way that the 997 GT3 does. Add the Tip with its inclination for lower revs and higher gears and the new Turbo slips over the edge into the abyss of passionless superiority. To deliver full driver satisfaction, sports cars need the right sound. They also need RWD.

    If you want excitment and passion with a reasonable degree of practicality in a Porsche, get the GT3. The reports all indicate that the 997 Turbo will not be fully satisfying for true sports car enthusiasts.

    AUM

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    So why can't you get H&R suspension and sway bars on the 997TT? Please keep in mind the 997TT is not only more powerful than the 996TT but it also weighs less! And by the way, since your main interest is in better track performance, I heard the 997TT is faster on the track than the Carrera GT (certainly your 996TT for sure).

    David

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    So why can't you get H&R suspension and sway bars on the 997TT?


    Not compatible with PASM...

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Passion and safety are typically natural trade-offs....

    Doubt GT3/GT2 is as safe as 997TT in hands of even a good non-pro driver in bumpy mtn twisties/in rain/in high-speed emgcy maneuver b/c of lack of PSM and eAWD....

    "Fun"/"passion" is fairly subjective....for ex, know a few guys who prefer steering feel of Turbo vs 997S, as light front-end of 997S seems to provide too much "noisy" info vs Turbo's more filtered, yet precise feedback....some hate high-effort, high-revving, relatively low torque engines like GT3/430 vs effortless torque of 997TT/65 motors....

    But divergent individual risk/reward preferences are why mkt offers us choices like the various P/F/65 iterations....each w/different strengths and weaknesses....just buy as many iterations as one can afford ....and enjoy a daily choice of toys based on one's mood/driving route/weather, etc....

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    My main concern is the perfect balance of passion, performance and practicality. The 997 Turbo lacks passion and its lap times are unlikely to differ much from a 996 GT2 (about 10 seconds more than the CGT). My tuned 996 Turbo equals the GT2 on the Nordschleife. Thus the 997 Turbo has little performance advantage on the track over my present car.

    The 997 GT3 also has similar lap times but is hugely more passionate. And a little less practical. With track performance close to equal, it comes down to passion versus practicality. I believe the 997 GT3 has retained the passion while significantly improving practicality in comparison to the 996 GT3, to the extent that it is now my first choice in the 911 family.

    AUM

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    one very important point we should not forget:

    the turbo is porsches everyday supercar. its a daily driver with supercar smashing performance. what more could we ask for.

    if you want an all-out racer that bites get a gt2. its a monster that is hell when let loose.

    personally i am too scared for my life than to get a gt2. its more than a handfull and as said it does bite.

    997 turbo makes everybody look like a hero due to its accessibility.

    997 gt2 and 997 turbo simply seperate the men from the boys !

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    If you want excitment and passion with a reasonable degree of practicality in a Porsche, get the GT3. The reports all indicate that the 997 Turbo will not be fully satisfying for true sports car enthusiasts.
    AUM



    Oh please, not again. I heard the same crap about the 996 Turbo and you would be surprised what 993 Carrera RS drivers had to say about the 993 Turbo.

    This is nothing new! The 911 Turbo has always been the beast among the 911 model line, not the well trained low weight sports champion.

    There is one serious "problem" though with the 911 Turbo, one most people don't seem to realize. Yes, it is easy to drive fast, easier than driving a Carrera S or of course a GT3. But only up to a certain point where the boys are seperated from the men.
    To drive the 911 Turbo at the limit is almost impossible. Usually the driver slows down or looses control. I've seen the second thing happening several times with people who told me how easy the 911 Turbo is to drive fast.

    Maybe what Tom Ford of Top Gear said, describes the Turbo very well:

    You don't fight a turbo, wrestle it or tame it. You simply point it at the place where you want to be an teleport there via the medium of one extended shout of "Aaaaaaarrrrrrggggghhh...".

    It will tear off your head if you know what you're doing, and gamely snatch your ears off if you don't. It's an incredibly impressive car. But it somehow hasn't got the absolute element of the Super about it.

    If you had to drive something this fast everyday, there is no other choice, but if it was a highdays and holidays treat motor, there cars out there that move more heart then head.


    Now it depends what fun means to you. Does it mean taming a car all the time and enjoying a permanent challenge or does it mean you want to enjoy a challenge by trying to hit it's REAL limit? I take the second one since I've done this and that and don't need a permanent "watch out, here I'm coming" driving experience, especially not on the street.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    If you want excitment and passion with a reasonable degree of practicality in a Porsche, get the GT3. The reports all indicate that the 997 Turbo will not be fully satisfying for true sports car enthusiasts.
    AUM



    Oh please, not again. I heard the same crap about the 996 Turbo and you would be surprised what 993 Carrera RS drivers had to say about the 993 Turbo.

    This is nothing new! The 911 Turbo has always been the beast among the 911 model line, not the well trained low weight sports champion.

    There is one serious "problem" though with the 911 Turbo, one most people don't seem to realize. Yes, it is easy to drive fast, easier than driving a Carrera S or of course a GT3. But only up to a certain point where the boys are seperated from the men.
    To drive the 911 Turbo at the limit is almost impossible. Usually the driver slows down or looses control. I've seen the second thing happening several times with people who told me how easy the 911 Turbo is to drive fast.

    Maybe what Tom Ford of Top Gear said, describes the Turbo very well:

    You don't fight a turbo, wrestle it or tame it. You simply point it at the place where you want to be an teleport there via the medium of one extended shout of "Aaaaaaarrrrrrggggghhh...".

    It will tear off your head if you know what you're doing, and gamely snatch your ears off if you don't. It's an incredibly impressive car. But it somehow hasn't got the absolute element of the Super about it.

    If you had to drive something this fast everyday, there is no other choice, but if it was a highdays and holidays treat motor, there cars out there that move more heart then head.


    Now it depends what fun means to you. Does it mean taming a car all the time and enjoying a permanent challenge or does it mean you want to enjoy a challenge by trying to hit it's REAL limit? I take the second one since I've done this and that and don't need a permanent "watch out, here I'm coming" driving experience, especially not on the street.





    well said rc.

    i love the idea of sitting in a timemachine, but not to be reminded of it all the time. all creature comforts when i want them and hell braking loose when in playful mood.

    i certainly would not have to drive to my local pharmacy with migraine in a gt3 or a gt2.

    turbo is a superhero in disguise.

    finally, i think that this discussion makes no sense as the turbo will have the gt3 for breakfast performance wise !

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    So why can't you get H&R suspension and sway bars on the 997TT? Please keep in mind the 997TT is not only more powerful than the 996TT but it also weighs less! And by the way, since your main interest is in better track performance, I heard the 997TT is faster on the track than the Carrera GT (certainly your 996TT for sure).

    David



    I'm afraid you're missing a few facts here:

    1. since the superiority of the 997 Turbo is based on the networked technical design (incl. PASM), adding a coilover kit would be pretty dumb if I may say so. There will be lower springs available from H&R but I would definetely keep my hands off the PASM setup which of course includes the shock absorbers. You can't deactivate PASM, this would destroy the whole original setup. Not to speak about the possible electronics problems which would occur since all systems are part of a network.

    2. the 997 Turbo is NOT faster than the Carrera GT on the track. It has been tested faster by around one second on the Weissach track, which is a pretty tight track and not a very long one. In Hockenheim, the 997 Turbo comes pretty close to Carrera GT time but there is still a substantial difference. On the Nordschleife, the difference is huge, no chance here.

    This whole passion/non-passion crap is really p.ss.ng me off, honestly. I heard this back in 1999 too, when we showed the first pictures of a 996 Turbo in a hall at Werk 2. When the 996 Turbo was finally introduced in spring 2000, again people started to talk about passion, yada yada yada. Surprisingly, the 996 Turbo became one of the most succesful 911 Turbo models in Porsche history and even people who claim the new one is passionless, apparently enjoyed the old one.

    Guys: DRIVE one, OWN one. I know that some people buy a Ferrari because it looks nice, it sounds nice and it feels nice. I'm 41 now, I'm married, I have two kids, I have a running business and I've done this and that. I don't need to buy a car because it attracts chicks, because it sounds like big Machomobile or because it feels nice. The only thing which really counts for me is DRIVING. And all this "not a challenge", "too easy to drive fast", yada yada yada crap, I heard it too often from too many people. People who sometimes learned it the hard way.

    The new 997 Turbo is a perfect driving machine from what I can tell so far and yes, I'm sure that I will indeed criticize the boring exhaust sound like others will do. But the emphasis lies on DRIVING. I want to have a car in which I feel safe, including my family. And at the same time I want a car in which I can drive the hell out of it. And a car which offers me a safety cushion for those days, when my guardian angel doesn't pay attention. And last but not least, a car which blows away almost everything else on the street, including so called "passionate" sportscars.
    Guys, the passion happens in your heads, not your pants.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    I have the good fortune to race on the Nordschleife three times a week. My tuned 996 Turbo has similar performance (maybe better suspension) to the 997 TT, so I am aware of its tremendous capabilities at the limit. But it is too heavy for maximum track enjoyment. The 997 GT3 is lighter, more agile, sounds much better and achieves similar NBR times with less power and more driver involvement.

    If I only tracked my car a few times a year, the new space ship would certainly appeal more, but even then the exhaust sound is so uninspiring. To each his own.

    AUM

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    I traded my 997 C2S for a 996 TT X50 last year because I wanted better track performance and more power. The X50 is a great car; it has been tuned and keeps up with GT2s and GT3s on the Nordschleife in the dry and pulls away from them rapidly in the wet.

    ...

    If you want excitment and passion with a reasonable degree of practicality in a Porsche, get the GT3. The reports all indicate that the 997 Turbo will not be fully satisfying for true sports car enthusiasts.

    AUM


    I don't know why you got 996TT x50 instead of 996 GT3 (RS)? Wouldn't it be the same reason to get 997 TT instead of 997 GT3?

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    'I don't know why you got 996TT x50 instead of 996 GT3 (RS)? Wouldn't it be the same reason to get 997 TT instead of 997 GT3?'

    +++ I have already had the full Turbo experience. The 997 GT3 is safer, more comfortable and more practical the 996 GT3 RS, and even the standard 997 GT3 is as fast or faster than the hard-core 997 GT3 RS.

    Why does Walter say he wants a 997 GT3 but never said he wanted a 996 GT3?

    AUM

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Not only do you have the good fortune of tracking you car three times a week, but at the Nordschleife of all places!! The GT3 is basically a race car with plates and street tires. Can it be driven everyday on the street, as your only vehicle? I suppose it depends on many personal parameters but it would surely be a difficult proposition for the average Porsche fan.

    The Turbo is a totally different animal! It is the ultimate "street" vehicle, capable of blowing away just about anything you will encounter on public roads, while still capable of turning hot laps at the track. I'm sure Porsche designed it primarily for "street" use.

    As you point out, how a car sounds and feels significantly adds to the driving experience. If it even looks better, all the better. I too would choose the GT3 over the Turbo but in my instance owning a GT3 for everyday use is impossible.

    Go ahead and order your GT3 but please stop trying to convince the rest of us that you have made the right choice. It is "your choice" and you are entitled to it - enjoy!!

    Just don't get mad when a 997 Turbo blows your doors off on the highway.

    MP

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Why would you need a 480hp sport car for everyday driving? It is impractical and silly to drive a car of this nature in traffic on a regular basis.

    Sport cars should be designed to be exciting to drive and provide an escape to a fairly successful individual. This done by choosing those moments, getting into your "sanctuary" and enjoying the road. Driving a tt to work, grocery store and then trying to use it as a instrument to generate excitement and passion is unrealistic. It ain't going to happen.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    I have driven the 996TT with the X50 but I am pretty sure that the car is not on par with the 997TT, despite the fact that none of us has driven the 997TT yet. 911's from the base model to the turbos or twin turbos have always been powerful cars with handling and acceleration characteristics like no others. Characteristics unknown to so many who have not appreciated the car or understood it well and consequenty when they push the car to it's limits they easily loose the control of that car. The Turbo is not and has never been a track car and it will be never be a GT3 has it was never intended to be. 996TT had a soft ride softer than the 997S but they are an all day comfortable, fast exotic car Bottom line while 996TT will always be a gr8 car it's an outdated car and not a match for the new 997TT on the streets or GT3 on a track.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Umm I think there are quit a few turbo owners here who will say your full of [censored]. Pedal your negativity someplace else.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Go ahead and order your GT3 but please stop trying to convince the rest of us that you have made the right choice.

    +++ My intention is not to convince anyone of anything but to provoke debate, discussion and shared experiences from which we can allbenefit. I am merely sharing my experiences and opinions (which arecrystallising with every new test drive of the 997 TT).


    AUM

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Just don't get mad when a 997 Turbo blows your doors off on the highway.


    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    trip said:
    Umm I think there are quit a few turbo owners here who will say your full of [censored]. Pedal your negativity someplace else.



    Relax... there are some who don't share your opinion...
    Statements like yours make me wonder which Porsche dealership you work for.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    If you want excitment and passion with a reasonable degree of practicality in a Porsche, get the GT3. The reports all indicate that the 997 Turbo will not be fully satisfying for true sports car enthusiasts.
    AUM



    Oh please, not again. I heard the same crap about the 996 Turbo and you would be surprised what 993 Carrera RS drivers had to say about the 993 Turbo.

    I think that is is nice that there are so many different opinions..makes for interesting chat. But remember that if anyone says anything somewhat negative about the 997TT, RC will call it crap and will be there to defend his beloved turbo.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Why would you need a 480hp sport car for everyday driving? It is impractical and silly to drive a car of this nature in traffic on a regular basis.




    Now I know for sure you're a poser, sorry Nick.

    Let me ask you this: why does someone need a 500+ HP 2.5 ton truck for commuting his family?

    It is all about DRIVING, nothing else.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    RonnieC6Z said:
    But remember that if anyone says anything somewhat negative about the 997TT, RC will call it crap and will be there to defend his beloved turbo.



    There is crap and crap...white isn't black and black isn't white. But of course you wouldn't understand this.
    BTW: how about people claiming the same about the Z06 like they did years ago about the previous Corvette models? Would it be correct?!

    I read the same claims around 1999/2000 when the 996 Turbo showed up. And now I have to read the same crap from people who actually own a 996 Turbo or owned one. Too much crap for a day, sorry. Which brings me to my posts and claims regarding the Z06: did you read a single post written by me where I say that the Corvette is passion-less or slow? Or that it is crap? On the contrary, I gave the Z06 more credit than she(he?) deserves.

    If somebody claims that the 997 Turbo is not fast enough, I would never say this is crap, it remains to be seen.
    If somebody claims that the 997 Turbo is ugly, I would say "wait until you see it in person", I would never say this is crap.
    If somebody claims that the 997 Turbo is too comfort oriented, I would also tell him to wait until he drives one. I would never say this is crap. #

    But all this passion/non-passion schmonzens really gives me the passion myself and yes, I call it crap. C.R.A.P.

    Maybe this example helps, btw. a very good one taken from a friend: a man meets a woman, they have fun together, man claims afterwards that woman was cold like a fish and boring (technically speaking...you understand ). Another man dates the same woman a few weeks later, they have fun and this man claims afterwards that this woman rocked and that it was incredible. The second guy is a pretty experienced guy, not to say a ladies man. Now guess who knew how to press the right buttons to ignite that passion?! If you guys didn't get my point with this comparison, I'm sorry. To each his own I guess.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Go ahead and order your GT3 but please stop trying to convince the rest of us that you have made the right choice.

    +++ My intention is not to convince anyone of anything but to provoke debate, discussion and shared experiences from which we can allbenefit. I am merely sharing my experiences and opinions (which arecrystallising with every new test drive of the 997 TT).


    AUM



    AUM: Don't get so defensive my friend, I am not trying to convince anyone to buy anything nor am I saying between the TT and teh GT3 one is better than the other. Two different cars for two different purposes. I love them both but if I had to choose one it would be the TT over the GT3 for daily driving. The 996GT3 was an uncomfortable car to me and I am sure the 997GT3 will be worse. I love the feel of the normal aspirated engine but the GT3 wing and rough suspension for daily street driving just won't do it for me.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    RonnieC6Z said:
    But remember that if anyone says anything somewhat negative about the 997TT, RC will call it crap and will be there to defend his beloved turbo.



    There is crap and crap...white isn't black and black isn't white. But of course you wouldn't understand this.
    BTW: how about people claiming the same about the Z06 like they did years ago about the previous Corvette models? Would it be correct?!

    I read the same claims around 1999/2000 when the 996 Turbo showed up. And now I have to read the same crap from people who actually own a 996 Turbo or owned one. Too much crap for a day, sorry. Which brings me to my posts and claims regarding the Z06: did you read a single post written by me where I say that the Corvette is passion-less or slow? Or that it is crap? On the contrary, I gave the Z06 more credit than she(he?) deserves.

    If somebody claims that the 997 Turbo is not fast enough, I would never say this is crap, it remains to be seen.
    If somebody claims that the 997 Turbo is ugly, I would say "wait until you see it in person", I would never say this is crap.
    If somebody claims that the 997 Turbo is too comfort oriented, I would also tell him to wait until he drives one. I would never say this is crap. #

    But all this passion/non-passion schmonzens really gives me the passion myself and yes, I call it crap. C.R.A.P.

    Maybe this example helps, btw. a very good one taken from a friend: a man meets a woman, they have fun together, man claims afterwards that woman was cold like a fish and boring (technically speaking...you understand ). Another man dates the same woman a few weeks later, they have fun and this man claims afterwards that this woman rocked and that it was incredible. The second guy is a pretty experienced guy, not to say a ladies man. Now guess who knew how to press the right buttons to ignite that passion?! If you guys didn't get my point with this comparison, I'm sorry. To each his own I guess.



    Wow!!! I'm impressed! You really are quite emotional about this whole thing! And I did not even mention the Z06!!! Wow!!!

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    As much enjoyment as you admit to getting out of your 996 Turbo anyone that buys a 997 Turbo will have the same, just more of it.

    I went the other way - From a 996 Turbo to a 997 S and admit the turbo was loads more fun. I should have held the 996 turbo until the 997 turbo came out but I was curious. The 997 S isn't nearly as much fun. As for the GT3 forget driving for a 1/4 of the year in winter conditions or even the threat of winter conditions,,,,,,,,,,that isn't any fun where as the turbo you're good to go. Porsche's should be workhorses/ used everyday. Instead of a GT3 if you really want the thrill of a fair weather track car that delivers to 100% of your senses buy a Ferrari Challenge Stradale or even better wait for the 430 CS.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Why would you need a 480hp sport car for everyday driving? It is impractical and silly to drive a car of this nature in traffic on a regular basis.




    Now I know for sure you're a poser, sorry Nick.

    Let me ask you this: why does someone need a 500+ HP 2.5 ton truck for commuting his family?

    It is all about DRIVING, nothing else.



    Sorry RC you are now feeding the crap. Poseur's drive 480hp sport cars to work. True sport car devotee's drive sport cars for the purpose there were designed for. SPIRITED DRIVING in a safe environment.

    The whole concept of sport car originated when driver's wanted a diversion from their mundane lives of drivng family vehicles to and from work or other tasks. The sport car was meant to be a supplement and not a replacement for transportation.

    Regarding the two ton trucks with 500hp I couldn't agree more. But does two wrongs make it right?

    Finally, I agree we all should wait to see the TT in person although I will bring my vomit bag just to be safe. The car apparently is selling like hotcakes if Alan's post is correct. Porsche will laugh all the way to the bank which will not surprise me. They have been doing it for several years.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    Quote:
    trip said:
    Umm I think there are quit a few turbo owners here who will say your full of [censored]. Pedal your negativity someplace else.



    Relax... there are some who don't share your opinion...
    Statements like yours make me wonder which Porsche dealership you work for.


    My comment was directed at nberry's remark about it being impractical and stupid to drive a high performance car everyday. I think it shows that he is not a true car enthusiast. I don't see how that makes me a Porsche employee.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Why would you need a 480hp sport car for everyday driving? It is impractical and silly to drive a car of this nature in traffic on a regular basis.




    Now I know for sure you're a poser, sorry Nick.

    Let me ask you this: why does someone need a 500+ HP 2.5 ton truck for commuting his family?

    It is all about DRIVING, nothing else.



    Sorry RC you are now feeding the crap. Poseur's drive 480hp sport cars to work. True sport car devotee's drive sport cars for the purpose there were designed for. SPIRITED DRIVING in a safe environment.

    The whole concept of sport car originated when driver's wanted a diversion from their mundane lives of drivng family vehicles to and from work or other tasks. The sport car was meant to be a supplement and not a replacement for transportation.

    Regarding the two ton trucks with 500hp I couldn't agree more. But does two wrongs make it right?

    Finally, I agree we all should wait to see the TT in person although I will bring my vomit bag just to be safe. The car apparently is selling like hotcakes if Alan's post is correct. Porsche will laugh all the way to the bank which will not surprise me. They have been doing it for several years.


    I don't understand why I cannot drive a high performance car to work every day without being a poseur. If it is a car like the Turbo, f430, or gallardo, why not. They are fast, safe, and a hell of a lot of fun. The poseur is the person who thinks these cars are too much of a handful to use as a daily commuter. In the case of the f430/gallardo I could see someone not wanting to put the miles on the car or perhaps worrying about reliability, but if you don't mind the depreciation/maintenance, than why not? Are you afraid you can't handle the power or will lose focus during the daily grind? If so than maybee your just getting too old or you are simply not an enthusiast. My dad used to drive his 996tt 100 miles a day before we moved closer to the offce. He drove his 997s every day, and will drive his 997tt every day. At least in Northern California this is the norm for people with high performance cars. I am not saying you HAVE to drive a car like this to work to be an enthusiast, but if you want to then you should.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    trip said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Why would you need a 480hp sport car for everyday driving? It is impractical and silly to drive a car of this nature in traffic on a regular basis.




    Now I know for sure you're a poser, sorry Nick.

    Let me ask you this: why does someone need a 500+ HP 2.5 ton truck for commuting his family?

    It is all about DRIVING, nothing else.



    Sorry RC you are now feeding the crap. Poseur's drive 480hp sport cars to work. True sport car devotee's drive sport cars for the purpose there were designed for. SPIRITED DRIVING in a safe environment.

    The whole concept of sport car originated when driver's wanted a diversion from their mundane lives of drivng family vehicles to and from work or other tasks. The sport car was meant to be a supplement and not a replacement for transportation.

    Regarding the two ton trucks with 500hp I couldn't agree more. But does two wrongs make it right?

    Finally, I agree we all should wait to see the TT in person although I will bring my vomit bag just to be safe. The car apparently is selling like hotcakes if Alan's post is correct. Porsche will laugh all the way to the bank which will not surprise me. They have been doing it for several years.


    I don't understand why I cannot drive a high performance car to work every day without being a poseur. If it is a car like the Turbo, f430, or gallardo, why not. They are fast, safe, and a hell of a lot of fun. The poseur is the person who thinks these cars are too much of a handful to use as a daily commuter. In the case of the f430/gallardo I could see someone not wanting to put the miles on the car or perhaps worrying about reliability, but if you don't mind the depreciation/maintenance, than why not? Are you afraid you can't handle the power or will lose focus during the daily grind? If so than maybee your just getting too old or you are simply not an enthusiast. My dad used to drive his 996tt 100 miles a day before we moved closer to the offce. He drove his 997s every day, and will drive his 997tt every day. At least in Northern California this is the norm for people with high performance cars. I am not saying you HAVE to drive a car like this to work to be an enthusiast, but if you want to then you should.



    I own one car...06 Z06...I drive it everywhere, everyday...18,000 miles a year...I would not have it any other way. But, that is just my outlook.

    Re: 997 TT: Passionless superiority

    Quote:
    RC said:

    But all this passion/non-passion schmonzens really gives me the passion myself and yes, I call it crap. C.R.A.P.

    Maybe this example helps, btw. a very good one taken from a friend: a man meets a woman, they have fun together, man claims afterwards that woman was cold like a fish and boring (technically speaking...you understand ). Another man dates the same woman a few weeks later, they have fun and this man claims afterwards that this woman rocked and that it was incredible. The second guy is a pretty experienced guy, not to say a ladies man. Now guess who knew how to press the right buttons to ignite that passion?! If you guys didn't get my point with this comparison, I'm sorry. To each his own I guess.



    Although you are correct in some of your assumptions, there has to be a standard of judgement. We cannot absolve everything into relativity.

    The gestalt concept of a sports car is not a definitive strata, but it has several aspects to its ideology that are empirically accepted:

    1.) To derive pleasure from the act of driving it
    -this can be delivered through the sensation (feel, sound, touch) of speed

    -the concept of speed can be further broken down into elements such as acceleration or cornering. Acceleration is pretty much percieved as the less pure of the two (relying on grip and power as the most important elements (any muscle car can haul arse down a line, it takes more around a track).

    -The concept of cornering adds elements such as weight, RWD pleasure (the balance between oversteer, understeer and control), aerodynamics, grip etc...

    -The most hardcore purists in regards to cornering will be obsessed with things such as ABS, Power Steering and above all else weight . Cars such as the McLaren F1, the Ferarri F40, the GT3RS, the Lotus Elise become the staples of this ideology. The truly fanatics push it further to the ariel atoms, the Radicals etc...

    -Top speed can also be thrown into the equation, something of a mix between aerodynamics and weight/power ratio. Something of a hybrid...

    ---------

    2.) To derive pleasure from the act of appreciating it (the vehicle)

    -this can be delivered visually and auditorally; amongst friends and pedestrians.

    -Do you find the sound of the Carerra GT spinetingling? Do you find yourself standing in your garage staring at your F430 for untold periods of time? Do you enjoy having people gawk at your Ferrari F430? These are subsidiary elements to the concept of sport driving pleasure but nevertheless important elements .

    - what does one find aesthetically pleasing? What does one find visually stimulating? These become more convoluted questions about personal taste, anyone can attest to this.
    -(The very tennants of aesthetic standards is a much larger concept that is only tangentially relevant, so I wont get into it)


    ------------

    The fundamental principles of driving pleasure are founded on the connection between the man and the machine.
    To give an example, do you get pleasure at raising a child to be a functional and well-mannered human being or do you get pleasure at hiring maids, tutors and nannies to do it for yourself?

    Of course, the debate between GT3 and Turbo is not as simple as the afformentioned anecdote. Both have their strengths and both have their weaknesses in the paradigm I so roughly laid out above.

    Both cars can derive pleasure, however the GT3 is more pure to form (undeniably) in terms of connection between the driver and the machine. This very element is perhaps why Excellence magazine's snipet about the GT3 was filled with speculation, about the PASM's role in changing the driver/machine paradigm on the machine.

    ----------

    What we can draw from this is that the Turbo is not a pure sportscar . It never has been and anyone who claims it to be or is disappointed by it not being is foolish.

    It is heavy, it is less involving (4WD vs 2WD) and this particular 997 pushes the envelope with the concept of Tiptronic vs Manual (again, back to connectivity with the machine).

    However, the very question of true sports driving is becoming more and more impractical for many, so compromises are appreciated . The 997 Turbo may be the most technically jawdropping compromise for a sports car ever.
    Furthermore, we can't always be so selfish to the tennants of pure pleasure via driving. Issues such as safety and responsibility are important.
    For many (especially on the 997 Turbo forum) this is exactly what they want and I emplore them to get this fantastic machine.


    For others (such as AUM and, I must say, myself) it is not the end-all be all. These others may be reckless and less safe and less concerned about the creatures of comfort, but they are more connected to the concept of sports car driving.

     
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