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    Mar 16, 2014 9:24:24 PM

    apias
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    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Whoopsy:

    I say let them gamble, makes the races more exciting when we know a few might not have enough fuel to finish if there was no safety car events haha. Or the leaders might have to slow down to conserve fuel and someone else can pass them for the lead.

    Well, you might also get that result even if there is no safety car. The maximum flow rate is 100kg/hour, the maximum fuel allowed is 100kg and the total time of this race was ~1:30.

    But, the rules are the rules, they all agreed to them, and RBR was warned that they were "consistently" exceeding the maximum flow rate but chose to ignore the ruling. It's hard to see how RBR could have expected any other result than there was given the circumstances, and the FIA really had no alternative but to take the action they did, especially considering that RBR was told they were in violation of the rule from early in the race.

    Mar 16, 2014 11:08:07 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: apias

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Also the fuel flow would also be important in qualifying where the driver can get more out of the engine over one lap than the other drivers who followed the flow limit. 

    I don't understand the reason why the FIA imposed a fuel flow rate limit on the regulations, but stupid rule or not, if all other teams followed it during the race, then they can't allow a team to race with a higher flow rate than the rest, period.

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    Mar 17, 2014 2:27:35 AM

    WhoopsyM Offline
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    As I understands, the mandatory fuel flow sensor comes from one single company. Smells like a hand me out gravy train. 

    They put that rule in so all teams will need a sensor and they will need to purchase from that one company. 

    If they get rid of the redundant sensor and adhere to only a max fuel allocation, that company will get zero business.

     

     


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    Mar 17, 2014 3:53:10 AM

    WhoopsyM Offline
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    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    http://www.worldcarfans.com/114031671837/mercedes-breached-fuel-flow-rules-in-melbourne---report

     

    Is the FIA out to get Red Bull because of their dominance last few seasons?


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    Mar 17, 2014 12:27:13 PM

    apias
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    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Whoopsy:

    http://www.worldcarfans.com/114031671837/mercedes-breached-fuel-flow-rules-in-melbourne---report

     

    Is the FIA out to get Red Bull because of their dominance last few seasons?

    The difference, of course, is that the "other team", thought to be Mercedes, is rumored to have done it in practice where they are supposed to be tweaking and adjusting things, not during qualifying or the race. 

    The rules affect everyone equally, unless they break them and get sanctioned... or break them and get away with it.

    Mar 17, 2014 4:12:48 PM

    Leawood911
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    Reply to: apias

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    The question is not about every following the rules - that is sadly an automatic consequnce of dumb or just rules.  The question is WHY NOT make them simple and therefor easier to adhere to and police?  For that matter why have some of the rules in the first place?  With less rules (which all still get to not follow or follow) you get more innovation and, yes, some gambling - call it engineered chances.

    Again - these F1 pilots are RISKING their lives!  Rules that don't value that contribution need to be carefully implemented, if at all.

    F1 is now dead boring - I may even start to watch NASCAR!  I never, ever thought I would say that.  I just threw up a little in my mouth while typing that.

    Mar 17, 2014 4:28:22 PM

    apias
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    Reply to: Leawood911

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Leawood911:

    The question is not about every following the rules - that is sadly an automatic consequnce of dumb or just rules.  The question is WHY NOT make them simple and therefor easier to adhere to and police?  For that matter why have some of the rules in the first place?  With less rules (which all still get to not follow or follow) you get more innovation and, yes, some gambling - call it engineered chances.

    Again - these F1 pilots are RISKING their lives!  Rules that don't value that contribution need to be carefully implemented, if at all.

    F1 is now dead boring - I may even start to watch NASCAR!  I never, ever thought I would say that.  I just threw up a little in my mouth while typing that.

    Well, even in NASCAR, drivers have been disqualified for circumventing restrictor plate rules on the tracks where they are required. It's one thing to argue about what the rules should be, but that argument, for this season, is over*, and the rules are what everyone agreed to follow.

    However, I disagree that fewer rules results in more innovation: it just results in less focused innovation. Rules direct innovation down avenues that it's been decided are desirable. In this case it was decided that it was desirable that cars be able to produce maximum power under certain specific restrictions, such as the amount of fuel they are allowed to burn at any given moment to do so. Not only does that allow significant innovation, it demands it.

    And, it's not the FIA who are devaluing drivers' efforts. It's the teams that violate the rules, sending the driver out to risk his neck essentially for nothing because they gave him a car that had to be disqualified, that are devaluing their own drivers' efforts.

     

    * Well, rules can be changed mid-season, but that doesn't happen because one team decides they don't want to adhere to them.

    Mar 17, 2014 4:56:53 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: apias

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Furthermore as I understand it, the FIA actually introduced those fuel saving rules at the request of the car manufacturers behind the F1 teams, that wanted a more green image, so I'm not sure they are the ones to blame.


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    Mar 17, 2014 8:08:01 PM

    Leawood911
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Great discussion - to my point though - why not simply give them x number gallons/liters of fuel and let them figure it out.  Let them choose any engine and drivetrain configuration.  How can that not lead to more inovation?

    As a fan I would much rather watch a car run out of gas prior to the finish or meters after.  When I am watching I want to see the real finishing order AND not the next day.  Can't the make rules that are 'self- regulating' - like running out of gas would seem obvious?  We all face that issue so we can relate to that.  I would hate to face 'fuel-flow' rules etc in my private car - too much like mandatory EPA numbers, and don't get me started on being more 'green'. 

    I agree the teams play a huge part in wasting the drivers efforts (and risking their lives needlessly) when they break the rules but my point is that by the time the driver is behind the wheel and the race starts there should be no more reasons to be disqualified or for the results to be anything other than the finishing order the viewers see live. - Except of course for errors the drivers make or penalties due to their personal actions on the track.

    Mar 18, 2014 12:25:28 AM

    WhoopsyM Offline
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    Reply to: Leawood911

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    I have been saying that for a while now, but too bad Bernie didn't listen haha.

    Right now 100kg of fuel is about 140 litres. So teams are suppose to average  just under 46l/100km.

    I would actually go a step further, each team is allocated that 140 litres before qualifying. That 140l would be their max consumption for both the race and qualifying. But no limit on practice.

    To discourage teams from gaming the qualifying, drivers gets extra championship points for qualifying, 5pt for top qualifier and down to 1 for 5th.


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    Mar 18, 2014 2:29:47 AM

    apias
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    Reply to: Leawood911

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Leawood911:

    ... why not simply give them x number gallons/liters of fuel and let them figure it out.  ...

    ... When I am watching I want to see the real finishing order AND not the next day. ...

    Apparently, though, they got the rules they asked for. A total fuel use limit alone could have been an interesting design parameter, but I actually think limiting flow rate adds another aspect to it that forces the engineers to be even more creative.

    I do agree that it's not ideal to have the finishing order change after the finish of the race, but the alternative would be to black flag drivers and force them off the track whenever there was any serious rules violation. At least this way there is some possibility of appeal. On the other hand, although maybe it wasn't a factor in this race, you always have to wonder if someone who's going to be disqualified ends up skewing the results by their presence on track.

    But, none of this is new. Driver disqualifications and time penalties that change the results happen almost every year in F1, so it's really just part of the sport.

    Mar 18, 2014 8:16:49 AM

    ALDOM
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    Reply to: apias

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    I would like to cite Mark Gillan:

    It was decided pretty early on in the FiA Technical Working Group meetings (which I was a member of) to agree not only on a maximum fuel quantity (i.e. 100kg) but also to a maximum fuel flow rate in order to ensure that a significant emphasis was placed on both improved whole vehicle efficiency and on reduced fuel consumption. These limits, coupled with the move to the downsized 1.6L v6 engine, would ensure that suitable R+D resource was put into the new ERS which, with the addition of the MGU-H, are at the forefront of a potential technology revolution for new highly efficient down-sized road car and commercial vehicle power units.

    The technical regulation for the power unit fuel mass flow is clearly stated in articles 5.1.5 and 5.1.5 which set a max fuel mass flow rate of 100kg/h at, and above, 10500rpm with this maximum reducing as the rpm decreases in line with the formula outlined in 5.1.5. These are maximum values and there is no margin for error if one exceeds these values.

    The flow rate is monitored by the new ultrasonic sensor, supplied by Gill Sensors, and as discussed previously the accuracy and reliability of this sensor is key, as the ultimate performance of the car depends on it.


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    Mar 19, 2014 12:26:38 PM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Still those rules restrictions seem more appropriate for 24h Le Mans where it actually makes sense.

    For a 2h race I don't want the tires to be programmed to wear off or fuel to be the limit. This should be flat out driving and only that for 2h...

    Oh F1 what have you become....


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    Mar 19, 2014 12:57:16 PM

    apias
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    Reply to: Jeannot

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Jeannot:

    Still those rules restrictions seem more appropriate for 24h Le Mans where it actually makes sense.

    For a 2h race I don't want the tires to be programmed to wear off or fuel to be the limit. This should be flat out driving and only that for 2h...

    Oh F1 what have you become....

    Well, tires wearing out is something different from the fuel flow limit. With the fuel flow limit, manufacturers get to direct R&D in directions that have practical applications in the real world. Asking the tire maker to intentionally develop tires that wear quickly is the opposite of that, and done just to "mix things up". (Well, ok, it does reward a certain driving style, although, ironically, that's the style that's the opposite of the "mix things up" style.)

    Mar 19, 2014 1:21:29 PM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: apias

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Fuel flow limit may have R&D application in real life. So does tank size :-) As mentioned few times in this thread this should have been enough.

    These days it is hardly possible to watch a F1 race without commentaries...like say MotoGP. The bike in front is the fastest and everybody else is flat out until the finish line trying to catch the bike in front. No tire or fuel etc...simple stuff.

     


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    Mar 19, 2014 1:46:24 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: Jeannot

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    On another note:

    Bernie Ecclestone has said Formula One will investigate ways of making the new 2014 machines sound “more like racing cars” as a matter of urgency, after Australian Grand Prix organisers threatened on Monday to sue for breach of contract.

    Ecclestone also said on Monday that he has had “one or two promoters get in touch with me today and they said how unhappy they are”. He said: “I spoke to [Ferrari president] Luca di Montezemolo just now and Luca said he’s never had as many emails complaining and saying this isn’t Formula One.”

    The new engine regulations have been controversial from the start, with Ecclestone and Ferrari among those to oppose the switch. Walker, an old friend and ally of Ecclestone’s, even went as far as to form an alliance of 17 race organisers, including Monaco, Monza, Silverstone and Spa, threatening to stop holding F1 races and run IndyCar instead if new smaller engines were introduced to F1.
     

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/10704361/Bernie-Ecclestone-promises-noisier-F1-cars-as-promoter-of-Austra...

     

    Really? Bernie and friends didn't see that coming when they heard how the cars sounded during pre-season? you'd think they were born yesterday... no wonder the F1 is the circus that it is.

     

    --

    Mar 20, 2014 2:20:53 PM

    throt
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    At best they sounded like Audi S4's racing around. Its the fist time that crowd cheers have drowned out the engines,, haha. You could hear them talking about Ricciardo ..


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    Mar 20, 2014 3:49:54 PM

    Ron (Houston)M
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Hope this is not a re-post but listen to the exhaust sound, disappointing Smiley.

     

     


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    Mar 20, 2014 9:01:10 PM

    kudryavchik Offline
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    Reply to: Ron (Houston)M

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Solution for Malaysian GP with more NA engine noise

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkY3qfvefMA


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    Mar 20, 2014 9:14:55 PM

    GaussM
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    Reply to: Ron (Houston)M

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Ron (Houston):

    Hope this is not a re-post but listen to the exhaust sound, disappointing Smiley.

     

     

    Wow! Didn't know it was this bad Smiley


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    Mar 21, 2014 9:52:14 AM

    kudryavchik Offline
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    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Really, it is a very strange sound. If you look at old videos from F1 80 turbo era, the sound of their engines was quite loud... 


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    Mar 26, 2014 6:52:45 PM

    WhoopsyM Offline
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    Reply to: kudryavchik

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Just came across this one on youtube:

     


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    Mar 26, 2014 8:16:08 PM

    Pentium Offline
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    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    Nice! smiley


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    Mar 30, 2014 1:28:20 AM

    Atzporsche
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    Re: 2014 Australian F1 Grand Prix in Melbourne

    cool to see the difference! kiss


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