Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: PASM vs sport suspension - Page1

Feb 24, 2013 11:01:00 PM

mcdelaug: Expert; Loc: Fort Worth, Texas , United States; Posts: 1921, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 3, 2004

PASM vs sport suspension

Gentlemen,

It's been along time since I've been on rennteam, but after 8 years of daily driving my 987S, I am considering buying a 981S. I am a minimalist when it comes to the roadster experience, but I do want PTV. I believe I'd be happier with the sport suspension than PASM, as I typically would want the suspension to be as firm as possible and would quickly tire of pressing sport every time i entered the car. Has anyone driven both for any length of time? I'd appreciate your impressions of each.

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Mar 10, 2013 12:19:52 PM

DaveGordon: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Zürich , Switzerland; Posts: 2774, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2007; Reply to: mcdelaug

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

I've not driven the sport suspension option 981, but Evo reviewed it here: http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/286315/porsche_boxster_s_sport_suspension_review.html

FWIW, the Cayman R I drove seemed a lot better than the PASM cars I've tried - I guess the Boxster option is similar. My DD is a KW-suspended 987S - far more capable than the PASM on the 987 IMO.

--

2011 987S, 1964 Type 1

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Mar 10, 2013 1:44:00 PM

GR: Senior; Loc: S Bucks, England , United Kingdom; Posts: 779, Gallery; Registered on: May 17, 2005; Reply to: DaveGordon

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

I don't think its going to be available for a while yet

--

Gen II Cayman S

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Mar 19, 2013 12:07:34 AM

DaveGordon: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Zürich , Switzerland; Posts: 2774, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2007; Reply to: GR

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

It's on the UK configurator now. I spec'ed up a car with it only yesterday..

--

2011 987S, 1964 Type 1

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Mar 20, 2013 11:23:30 AM

GR: Senior; Loc: S Bucks, England , United Kingdom; Posts: 779, Gallery; Registered on: May 17, 2005; Reply to: DaveGordon

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

And you can get it with 19" according to the configurator. That surprised me (pleasantly)

--

Gen II Cayman S

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Mar 17, 2014 2:28:48 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: GR

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

Time for an update on the suspension and handling of my 981s.

As some of you will know my car has PASM, all chassis options except the steering package, manual gearbox, the widest rim option, PSE, Sport Chrono but steel brakes.

Now I'm back on summer tyres I've been driving the car briskly but for this year I have been concentrating on running it on known roads in Sport+ as opposed to Sport. If you are not mooching home from lunch or dinner, this is the best setting for the car for your favourite road. In short it has removed most of the float at the back which I mentioned in my last report, hasn't harmed the ride noticeably and has added a degree of response to the steering and adjustability on the throttle.

The steering feel compared to my 997's and 996 is becoming less of an issue as my memory of the earlier cars fades and I learn to interpret the different messages coming through the rim of the wheel. If you look for feedback it is muted but there is more than you first think. Over time it becomes really quite OK except on greasy roads where you really miss the warning signs of impending loss of grip. I still think part of it is software and part tyres. I think the fundamentals are probably OK.

One thing is still nagging me and seems more pronounced on Sport+: The car can be sometimes hard to predict whether it is going to stick to its line on turn in aggressively or whether it stays neutral. Its as though sometimes the bushes somewhere in the suspension are compressed therefore it goes for the apex like a aggressive dog, and sometimes they are not which means it is less neutral and you have to turn the wheel more. It's puzzling and almost as though the diff is at work which I don't think is the case due to its relaxed locking rate. It's the only puzzling issue on what remains a fabulous car in the corners.

The discs are showing early wear on the front and the paint continues to chip. Other than that no more issues with the car and it is continuing to get quicker as the Km's build.

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Mar 17, 2014 7:16:51 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: john999s

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

john999s:

One thing is still nagging me and seems more pronounced on Sport+: The car can be sometimes hard to predict whether it is going to stick to its line on turn in aggressively or whether it stays neutral. Its as though sometimes the bushes somewhere in the suspension are compressed therefore it goes for the apex like a aggressive dog, and sometimes they are not which means it is less neutral and you have to turn the wheel more. It's puzzling and almost as though the diff is at work which I don't think is the case due to its relaxed locking rate. It's the only puzzling issue on what remains a fabulous car in the corners.

That sounds like PTV to me...

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

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Mar 17, 2014 7:19:37 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

Might be but it isn't subtle. And interferes with the experience.

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Mar 17, 2014 10:31:59 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: john999s

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

john999s:

Might be but it isn't subtle. And interferes with the experience.

Good to know - I'd like to drive 2 similar cars at the track (one with PTV and one without) to see what you mean (if that's the cause).

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

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Mar 18, 2014 8:42:58 AM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

Yes, the track is definitely the place to go find out as at least it will be repeatable. I'd like to understand the parameters of PTV and when it intervenes/interferes and if they vary it with the Sport/Sport+ settings or not. And if it really is that, of course.

In general I like a nice linear response and above all predictability so I know what the thing will do. I don't mind if it goes for the apex like a rabid dog as long as it does it consistently and I understand how to invoke it :)

I must say that the previous generation cars were a bit slower in the corners but more predictable and you could feel what they were doing . The new cars are faster and more able but sometimes I'm not quite sure where I am with it in medium speed corners. Having said all that when I am really on it at high speed in the fast bends (I mean well into 4th gear) it seems to be very consistent so make of that what you will!!

It probably wouldn't be so interesting without these traits so I'm not complaining just interested and wanting to understand it.

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Mar 18, 2014 12:43:58 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59607, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: john999s

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

I really regret not having PTV (incl. LSD) on my Boxster S (981). Completely forgot about it when I went for a slightly used dealer car. I enjoy the 20 mm chassis though but it cannot fully compensate me for the lack of PTV. Dammit.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

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Mar 18, 2014 1:26:55 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

RC:

I really regret not having PTV (incl. LSD) on my Boxster S (981). Completely forgot about it when I went for a slightly used dealer car. I enjoy the 20 mm chassis though but it cannot fully compensate me for the lack of PTV. Dammit.

Do you think PTV is causing the handling characteristics that John is describing?

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

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Mar 18, 2014 3:46:00 PM

WAY: Rennteam Master; Loc: Melbourne, Australia; Posts: 3344, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: john999s

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

john999s:

The car can be sometimes hard to predict whether it is going to stick to its line on turn in aggressively or whether it stays neutral. Its as though sometimes the bushes somewhere in the suspension are compressed therefore it goes for the apex like a aggressive dog, and sometimes they are not which means it is less neutral and you have to turn the wheel more. It's puzzling and almost as though the diff is at work which I don't think is the case due to its relaxed locking rate.

Can you elaborate on this a bit more? I've got a car that is optioned mechanically identical to yours, other than PCCB. But I have not experienced what you are describing. Maybe I'm not understanding you when you say "stick to its line" and "stays neutral". To me they are describing the same thing?

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Mar 18, 2014 4:19:58 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: WAY

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

Let me be more precise. Smiley

If I approach a 90 degree curve which requires half a turn of lock, at say 100km/h (ish Smiley ) in third gear on a trailing throttle and turn in applying throttle fairly aggressively (sport+ using the faster throttle map) one of two things can happen. Either the car understeers a little before going more 'neutral' with the power resulting in a smooth transition on the exit as you straighten or as you apply the throttle it takes a different line tightening more decisively toward site apex which result in me taking off some lock. Now normally I'd say it is PTV at work but I can't feel a brake being applied or hear it either and it doesn't happen every time I'm in that bend.

So I hypothesise that the particular corners where I notice it are a result of either the bushes compressing or upon reflection maybe PTV taking an active role to change the course of the car- the variation being due to the fact that my driving style/the car settings/the speed is such that it is close to the threshold at which PTV lends a helping hand or indeed does not.

This would make sense as when I am really pushing hard the car is completely predictable and when I'm on a really tight corner at some speed its also fairly predictable-or sliding.

When I say staying neutral I mean not noticeably understeering or oversteering. When I say 'sticks to it's line' I mean to say that the car is tracking a predictable course where I think I am pointing the front wheels. When the car exhibits the characteristic that might be and probably is PTV it alters the direction of the car without me changing the steering angle which I'm not really used to :)

Many years ago I had a 205GTI and it feels a bit like lift off oversteer in that but without the lift. Those Europeans of that generation will know what I mean :)

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Mar 18, 2014 5:18:06 PM

GR: Senior; Loc: S Bucks, England , United Kingdom; Posts: 779, Gallery; Registered on: May 17, 2005; Reply to: john999s

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

As i understand it, PTV brakes individual wheels to provide a yaw force. I've not experienced it so its difficult to know whether your experience is normal or a system problem. Sounds dreadful though

--

Gen II Cayman S

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Mar 18, 2014 5:32:59 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: GR

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

You know, its not awful but if you are half experienced and spent time on a track at some point you do notice it. I've come out of 3 911's over the last 10 years or so and some other great cars over the years with even less electronic help so I'm a bit 'analogue' I s'pose. With the level of diagnostics on it I doubt there's much wrong with the car (although being picky the mapping could do with a bit more work around 3k revs with PSE open) and in context the handling overall is superb. PTV is clearly here to stay and most journos seem to like it (if it is that). But unlike the various stages of PSM that let you play until a limit, or PASM that seems seamless and intuitive, PTV answers a question that I hadn't really asked (if that makes sense)

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Mar 18, 2014 5:50:29 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: john999s

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

So having read up and watched the videos on it it does look like PTV is the culprit. I think some time on a track is in order to see what it really does and when it does it.

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Mar 18, 2014 10:12:25 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: john999s

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

john999s:

So having read up and watched the videos on it it does look like PTV is the culprit. I think some time on a track is in order to see what it really does and when it does it.

It would be nice if LSD was available without PTV or if there was a switch for PTV (then you could see exactly what it was doing by turning it on and off).

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

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Mar 19, 2014 7:30:20 AM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

Agreed Grant. But unfortunately most people won't care including GT3 drivers and journos!

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Mar 20, 2014 2:20:41 PM

WAY: Rennteam Master; Loc: Melbourne, Australia; Posts: 3344, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: john999s

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

John, I've driven my car hard in sports plus often and can't say I experienced what you are describing. Then again it could be a driving style thing. I subscribe very much to the slow in fast out style of driving, which to me is the best way to drive a mid engine and read engine car. I feel the PTV working on exit but not on turn in as I tend not to induce understeer. I also tend to go into corners on a trailing throttle and left foot braking, which I find works well with these cars to give it more front end grip. Coming out of the corner, you can feel the diff and PTV working hard to keep the line.

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Mar 21, 2014 12:21:47 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: WAY

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

I think you are probably right- I have been deliberately carrying more speed into corners compared to my 911's as the car seems to tolerate that far better than a 911 which I certainly didn't and wouldn't drive like that. In the 911 I respected the weight at the back far more than the Boxster because it felt less retrievable once it was on the move, as it were. The Boxster has a different balance of grip front to rear obviously and weight which I think encourages misbehaviour to some extent and that coupled with less power and torque probably means my mid corner speed is relatively higher- if that makes sense?

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Mar 22, 2014 11:33:10 PM

WAY: Rennteam Master; Loc: Melbourne, Australia; Posts: 3344, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: john999s

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

Makes perfect sense. I've had several 911s and often have both a 911 and a mid engine Boxster/Cayman at the same time, so I understands perfectly what you are saying. There is no doubt that the mid engine brothers can carry more speed into a corner. The little brothers are also easier to balance into the corner compared to the 911s. However mentioned above, you will still get the most out of these cars with a slow in fast out approach. your entry speed is going to be higher on entry and you will have to feather the right foot a bit more sensitively on the way out relative to big bro. It's all part of the fun to find the limit and experience it just like you have if you ask me!

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Mar 24, 2014 12:37:35 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: WAY

Re: PASM vs sport suspension

Another short observation for your entertainment: I have a nice road with a tight second gear uphill right, slightly off camber but that has been patched with grippy surfacing but so that different wheels are on different surfaces as you corner. As it it was a bit slippery after a light sprinkling of rain I thought I'd push a bit see what the car does. Well it seemed to confuse the car. I felt the front push, the PTV pulsed and pulled it back too far to the extent I took off lock, then back let go, the diff straightened it up a bit. It felt a bit messy. I'm not sure I am a fan of PTV as it stands albeit this last example was a bit of an extreme test.

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