Crown

SuzyF:

noone1:

mc3744:

I have to admit that I find a bit odd worrying about 7k when buying a 200k+ car. If 7k are an issue, I would be much more conservative on the type of car I'd buy. At least that's what I used to do when I couldn't afford this type of toy. But then again we all handle money differently.

A rip-off is a rip-off. There is difference between being able to afford something and simply feeling ripped off. I once ordered a coke at a restaurant without looking at the menu. They brought me a can that cost about $1 and charged me the equivalent of $11. It was half the price of a main dish.

$11 is meaningless, but I still wasn't happy about it.

Exactly! 

Maybe I should have been a bit more clear. It was not the 7000 euro alone and also not the additional 14300 euro for the interior. Even without these expensive options  I started doubting about spending that much money on a weekend car. I first intended to buy the car as a DD, which makes a big difference IMO. The fact that I can afford it, does not mean that I feel good about it, spending the money that way 

I just wanted to share the price for that paint, in case someoned else is interested in it. But you have to admit... It's a lot of money for a white metallic paint. I know it is more expensive than regular metallic, because of the pearl-effect, but Volkswagen will paint a CC (bigger car) in that same color for about 950 euro...  Paint-quality isn't any better, so that's where one gets the feeling of being ripped-off... 

7.000,00eur  Porsche is really a joke when it comes to price some options, Renault back in 1988 was selling the mighty 5 GT Turbo with this pearl white at free cost, these two examples on the pics after 25 years are still shining 

J.Seven

FlatSix911:

Actually, that is part of the reason I find the Turbo S package appealing: most options come as standard and therefore you can skip the painful process of selecting pages upon pages of options.

The part I like most of buying a car is choosing the options :) Go figure! ;))

mc3744:

FlatSix911:

Actually, that is part of the reason I find the Turbo S package appealing: most options come as standard and therefore you can skip the painful process of selecting pages upon pages of options.

The part I like most of buying a car is choosing the options :) Go figure! ;))

In principle, I agree with you. I too enjoy choosing colors and options. Personalising a car and making it your own is one of the main appeals of buying new vs. used of course.

What I do not like is having to choose and pay what should have come for standard in the first place (e.g. floor mats).

FlatSix911:

 

What I do not like is having to choose and pay what should have come for standard in the first place (e.g. floor mats).

 So true!! Why don't they get it?!? 

mc3744:

The part I like most of buying a car is choosing the options :) Go figure! ;))

+1000

FlatSix911:

mc3744:

FlatSix911:

Actually, that is part of the reason I find the Turbo S package appealing: most options come as standard and therefore you can skip the painful process of selecting pages upon pages of options.

The part I like most of buying a car is choosing the options :) Go figure! ;))

 

In principle, I agree with you. I too enjoy choosing colors and options. Personalising a car and making it your own is one of the main appeals of buying new vs. used of course.

What I do not like is having to choose and pay what should have come for standard in the first place (e.g. floor mats).

In retrospect, the 991 Turbo S should have floor mats (actually ALL Porsche cars) standard and also Burmester. The standard BOSE system is very deceiving, many think it is OK (hey, it is a BOSE, nothing special but usually good enough for a fun car) but in the case of the 991 Turbo S, Burmester is the better choice I'm afraid.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I didn't try the BOSE, but the Burmester sounds really, really great. On the Cayenne too.

And frankly it's baffling - to say the least - that floor mats are an option! 

mc3744:

And frankly it's baffling - to say the least - that floor mats are an option! 

I never paid for those . I look at my dealer and ask him to put some in. I can see that he also feels embarrassed that they are not standards and trows them in as a ' delivery gift '

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil:

mc3744:

And frankly it's baffling - to say the least - that floor mats are an option! 

I never paid for those . I look at my dealer and ask him to put some in. I can see that he also feels embarrassed that they are not standards and trows them in as a ' delivery gift '

Same here, mine offered me too.

J.Seven

My former Porsche dealer also always threw in some floor mats as a delivery gift but unfortunately not the "good" ones from Porsche but cheap ones made especially for them. After a year or so, they started "bending" in the corners, absolutely horrible.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

J.Seven:

7.000,00eur  Porsche is really a joke when it comes to price some options, Renault back in 1988 was selling the mighty 5 GT Turbo with this pearl white at free cost, these two examples on the pics after 25 years are still shining 

It's very easy for me to say, since it isn't my money paying for it, but ~$9000 for what amounts to a custom, probably one-off, factory paint job doesn't seem that outrageous, given the base price of a Turbo S. The paint, obviously, is the least of the costs involved. Labor and factory time the biggest cost factors. And, of course, they do hope to make a profit from it, at least in line with, or perhaps a bit over, their usual margins. Whether it's worth it to one to have it done is another question entirely.

Just because you have the money to spend on something doesn´t mean you should let yourself get ripped off. 

apias:

J.Seven:

7.000,00eur  Porsche is really a joke when it comes to price some options, Renault back in 1988 was selling the mighty 5 GT Turbo with this pearl white at free cost, these two examples on the pics after 25 years are still shining 

It's very easy for me to say, since it isn't my money paying for it, but ~$9000 for what amounts to a custom, probably one-off, factory paint job doesn't seem that outrageous, given the base price of a Turbo S. The paint, obviously, is the least of the costs involved. Labor and factory time the biggest cost factors. And, of course, they do hope to make a profit from it, at least in line with, or perhaps a bit over, their usual margins. Whether it's worth it to one to have it done is another question entirely.

   There are also various painted parts concerned which come from different factories remote from each other, all of which have to get the paint match right to a high standard. (Body, front and rear bumpers, wing mirrors). Fitting delivery of individual parts like that into a modern just-in-time production system will be a logistical nightmare which they would probably prefer to avoid altogether.. 

fritz

There are two types of Porsche owners -

1) those who are smart with their money, which is why they have Porsche money left over and they are looking for value and quality.

AND

2)  those who have so much money they just don't care. (and brag about how much their cars cost, not how much they saved)

My fear is that Porsche is more and more catering to the second type, which is a shame.  My dealer is a prime example and has been like this for years.  As the smart buyers leave the brand (tired of being taken advantage of by marketing and high prices) quality will begin to suffer and resale will plummet as a result of out of warranty cars being virtually worthless. 

This makes it harder for those like me who are extra smart and are looking for a high quality, highly reliable, used sports cars (though the massive depreciation is welcome).

Again, I am happy to have the last of the Mezger/Manual Turbos.

 @Leawood911 Very good observation. Biggest challenge for Porsche in future is quality check & dealer support. To be honest I was expecting higher prices from Porsche, since they gained a lot of popularity in last decade, but I must admit that I was shocked with prices for 991 TTS. 

My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

Milanno:

 @Leawood911 Very good observation. Biggest challenge for Porsche in future is quality check & dealer support. To be honest I was expecting higher prices from Porsche, since they gained a lot of popularity in last decade, but I must admit that I was shocked with prices for 991 TTS. 

The 991 Turbo S is actually worth every cent but I expected a little bit more in return for the price raise. 30 hp more don't cut it, even if the car is really fast. Porsche makes it way too easy for their competitors.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I would even accept that "weak power update" if Porsche made it lighter (for example) with carbon-fiber elements. 

My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

Milanno:

I would even accept that "weak power update" if Porsche made it lighter (for example) with carbon-fiber elements. 

I agree but this probably would have been more expensive than a "simple" power upgrade.

To be blunt: I understand the pressure of the development team regarding budget and gain margins and I know that all-wheel-steering, new PTM/AWD system and the wider body kind of raised the production/development cost to an (somehow) unexpected level but I think that Porsche made a mistake here and missed out on a chance to annihilate the competition for the next two to three years. I know that power isn't everything but 40 hp (not only on paper but in reality...compared to the current power figure) more would have closed the performance gap between the 991 Turbo S, the 12C and even the F12 and at the same time, it would have kept the performance of the upcoming new R8 and Cabrera models at bay. 40 hp more would have done the trick, I am pretty sure about it. The chassis is amazing, no need to do something here. Yes, Porsche will catch up with the facelift but the "catching up" thing is actually what puts me off. Why not be ahead of the competition? Even by a little margin? 

Yes, the 12C, the F12 and probably the R8 and Cabrera top models will be more expensive overall, especially the McLaren and the Ferrari. So what? Even better for Porsche, the Turbo S would be considered a better value then.

I'm no marketing guy but Porsche needs to keep in mind that the 991 Turbo S isn't only the stealth super fast daily driver car European drivers seem to love but also a super sports car which is considered by many potential buyers worldwide, especially in markets where the stealth part of the car is actually more of a disadvantage. So why not kill the competition by superior performance? Big strategic mistake in my opinion.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

My turbo S is coming in late Jan. here.  Even though 12C is setting the bench mark for the straight speed in this sector, I still go for the TTS, because two reasons; not flashy, daily driving machine.  There is not much argument here in between two cars; The people who buys 12C will not appreciate 911's classic shape, they want exotic and super car look.  Even if Porsche hits 0-300km faster than 12C with 30 or 50 more horses,  12c potential buyers will still go for the 12C.  Because daily driving is not in their concern, and they love how the door opens differently than regular cars....  So if adding 30 or 50more hp will not makes much different in market sector,  this is one of the kind and no others can follow

Adding 50 hp to turbo s will make it a unique proposition. I miss this 50 hp very much... Hope facelift will be more powerful. Facelift will arrive in 2016, I think

huangester:

My turbo S is coming in late Jan. here.  Even though 12C is setting the bench mark for the straight speed in this sector, I still go for the TTS, because two reasons; not flashy, daily driving machine.  There is not much argument here in between two cars; The people who buys 12C will not appreciate 911's classic shape, they want exotic and super car look.  Even if Porsche hits 0-300km faster than 12C with 30 or 50 more horses,  12c potential buyers will still go for the 12C.  Because daily driving is not in their concern, and they love how the door opens differently than regular cars....  So if adding 30 or 50more hp will not makes much different in market sector,  this is one of the kind and no others can follow

With 40 hp more and full boost in the under 250 kph speed range, the Turbo S would easily keep up with the 12C. Even if Porsche would decide to permit full boost (1.2 bar) in the lower speed range at all times (when fully accelerating), the Turbo S would probably at least keep up with the 12C. Judging by the comparison video(s) seen so far, the Turbo S does pretty well in the 0-160 kph (100 mph) speed range (vs. the F12 and 12C) but then falls back. Then however, the Turbo S "comes back" at speeds over 250 kph where the F12 and 12C actually do not gain further distance vs. the Turbo S (if you pay attention). So if Porsche would give the Turbo S full boost pressure in the 160 to 240 kph speed range, I doubt that the 12C and F12, despite the lower weight/more powerful engines would be able to outrun the Turbo S. I kind of have the feeling that the reduced boost pressure in that speed range has something to do with PDK and not the engine but I may be wrong.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

For me TTS was the only option given DD and kids. I would also never be in the higher speed levels here in NY so not really an issue. I am also buying into the Porsche brand again with my TTS. As mentioned by other people I don't like the feeling of being taken for granted and expected to pay for everything. I expect the brand to be good by me. For example McLaren doing the power upgrades for free are a very nice gift (even if you can argue they needed to catch up). Anyways...the wait for my TTS is very painful! 

2013 BMW 750 xDrive MSport & 2012 x5 - TurboS Cab on Order Mar14. Range Rover V8 on order June14

I would admit aswell that on my test Drive of the f12 i had the chance to go for a Little hihgspeed, and was completly blown away what this car is capable of lets say after 250kmh. It feelt stronger in those speed range than my modded gt2, whitch does 100-300kmh in 20,x secs( grpah postet in this board a while ago). So i do think i  can judge it.

but from 0-250 aventador, f12,12c and 991 turbo s, are all with in 14-17secs according to diff. Test datas, basicly the time difference  for the more powerfull cars just happens above those Speed ranges du to various reasons (power/ gearing etc)

Dario:

sorry rc, maybe correct for the 12C but completly incorrect for the f12 berlinetta.

What was the words for the autocar Journalist from the comparo f12 vs 991 Turbo s vs sls.

 

The f12 was a small dot and desapired.

Standing Kilometer mph  170mph for berlinetta vs 161 for Turbos or almost 16kmh difference in Speed.

 

In the Speed range 250-300 kmh a 991 Turbo s and McLaren needs about 15 secs, where the f12 is around 9 secs. That is huge, and shows not just the extra power but also that proper gearing is very important as well, no silly overdrive in the f12

Did you see the F12/991 turbo S video?

I agree on what the autocar guy "said" - but looking at the video his statement is not so much in line with reality. The delta between turbo S and F12 was actually rather small  And this was under ideal circumstances. If the road is a bit moist etc. the picture will again change to the advantage of the Porsche. 

Based on my experience the real life performance of these V12 Ferraris is not so compelling as one would think it might be. You need to use the revs all the time - otherwise the car feels rather slow compared to a turbo. In real life the Porsche is quicker 99% of the time if you ask me 

Yes i saw it, therefore the Standing Kilometer times 170mph vs 161mph. the f12 torque isnt that bad (690nm), but i agree you have to use the revs, but that is what i want from a v12..  the f12 is perfect for highways and as i said pulled really strong. no comparo to the old and rather slow 599..   specialy the end of the video heads up f12 vs 991 where they did a 202 mph run with the f12, did you see how quick he past the 991 Turbo s.. But the Episode was to mutch cutted and we could never see the gap around 300kmh... which was a bit sad

Anything over 200km/h is purely academic with the exception of some stretches of autobahn (fewer and fewer of those) and even there for only short bursts and only at certain times when traffic is light(again,rarely).For the rest of us,superior traction and power "right now" at useful speeds is all that matters.

I lost interest in F12 for all the above reasons plus the increasingly negative image of the Brand,I have no interest in only having bragging rights for having the quickest car on paper only not in real life.

absent:

Anything over 200km/h is purely academic with the exception of some stretches of autobahn (fewer and fewer of those) and even there for only short bursts and only at certain times when traffic is light(again,rarely).For the rest of us,superior traction and power "right now" at useful speeds is all that matters.

 The days of "cruising" at over 250 are certainly more limited but a very powerful car is a lot of fun on modern Autobahn with the ability to safely use gaps in traffic to reach 280-300 and then slow down (safely) again all within short distances and time, 

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

TB993tt:

 

 The days of "cruising" at over 250 are certainly more limited but a very powerful car is a lot of fun on modern Autobahn with the ability to safely use gaps in traffic to reach 280-300 and then slow down (safely) again all within short distances and time, 

Well said and all those 700hp cars make it dam easy to hit very high speed in short time. It is pointless but fun.

huangester:

My turbo S is coming in late Jan. here.  Even though 12C is setting the bench mark for the straight speed in this sector, I still go for the TTS, because two reasons; not flashy, daily driving machine.  There is not much argument here in between two cars; The people who buys 12C will not appreciate 911's classic shape, they want exotic and super car look.  Even if Porsche hits 0-300km faster than 12C with 30 or 50 more horses,  12c potential buyers will still go for the 12C.  Because daily driving is not in their concern, and they love how the door opens differently than regular cars....  So if adding 30 or 50more hp will not makes much different in market sector,  this is one of the kind and no others can follow

thats not always true, i love the 911 and enjoyed my 997TT immensely but porsche screwed everything up and pushed me towards the 12C when they decided to make these 3 huge mistakes: first was the ridiculous increase in price with very little in return, second was when they decided to make the regular non S turbo insignificant and third was the severe lack of power compared to current and future competition.

i waited for the 991TT for 2 years and then changed my mind because of the above, so not all 12C buyers are looking for the fancy doors or shape, i was looking for a 911 that would crush everything on the rd like its predecessors always did, but porsche never made that car.

btw, even though another 50hp will make the 991TTS competitive today, it will need more to crush the competition like its supposed to do.   

2011 CTT, 2013 12C Spider, 2013 A5 cab, 2014 4Runner Trail Edition