Crown

AAHTT:

 

I agree with you as one of those buyers, I personally dont care for PCCB and PDCC but I do want the LED and the sport chrono of course, which with a couple more minor options jacked the price of my regular turbo to 160k, still far from the 190k S if I wanted to order one. So now I either have to accept the lowly regular turbo or get the S and its ridiculously high price for a 911. I have been on the list with a paid deposit for over 2 years now and this is the first time that I find waiting for a new turbo not exciting at all. I think porsche screwed up big time, first by not offering a stupid manual, second by jacking up the price to ridiculous levels for a 911, third by introducing the S at the same time which will make the lowly but not cheap regular turbo buyers feel like second class citizens. I now feel that every day that passes by is making that MP4 look better and better. here in the US you can buy or lease a near new MP4 with almost no miles for the price of a mildly optioned S. On paper, it looks like the MP4 can keep up with the S up to 100km/h and will totally destroy it after that. Ive bought porsches all my life and this is the first time I am thinking seriously about getting my deposit back. not sure what to do..... 

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997TT RS Tuning stage II,2011 Cayenne Turbo

Super Darius:

AAHTT:

 

I agree with you as one of those buyers, I personally dont care for PCCB and PDCC but I do want the LED and the sport chrono of course, which with a couple more minor options jacked the price of my regular turbo to 160k, still far from the 190k S if I wanted to order one. So now I either have to accept the lowly regular turbo or get the S and its ridiculously high price for a 911. I have been on the list with a paid deposit for over 2 years now and this is the first time that I find waiting for a new turbo not exciting at all. I think porsche screwed up big time, first by not offering a stupid manual, second by jacking up the price to ridiculous levels for a 911, third by introducing the S at the same time which will make the lowly but not cheap regular turbo buyers feel like second class citizens. I now feel that every day that passes by is making that MP4 look better and better. here in the US you can buy or lease a near new MP4 with almost no miles for the price of a mildly optioned S. On paper, it looks like the MP4 can keep up with the S up to 100km/h and will totally destroy it after that. Ive bought porsches all my life and this is the first time I am thinking seriously about getting my deposit back. not sure what to do..... 

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hussainh1:

Super Darius:

AAHTT:

 

I agree with you as one of those buyers, I personally dont care for PCCB and PDCC but I do want the LED and the sport chrono of course, which with a couple more minor options jacked the price of my regular turbo to 160k, still far from the 190k S if I wanted to order one. So now I either have to accept the lowly regular turbo or get the S and its ridiculously high price for a 911. I have been on the list with a paid deposit for over 2 years now and this is the first time that I find waiting for a new turbo not exciting at all. I think porsche screwed up big time, first by not offering a stupid manual, second by jacking up the price to ridiculous levels for a 911, third by introducing the S at the same time which will make the lowly but not cheap regular turbo buyers feel like second class citizens. I now feel that every day that passes by is making that MP4 look better and better. here in the US you can buy or lease a near new MP4 with almost no miles for the price of a mildly optioned S. On paper, it looks like the MP4 can keep up with the S up to 100km/h and will totally destroy it after that. Ive bought porsches all my life and this is the first time I am thinking seriously about getting my deposit back. not sure what to do..... 

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+2

From my own experience, if you find yourself unexcited and you have any doubts - get your deposit back. It will help you to start considering your options from point zero. Just my 2 cents

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I would agree ! If you don't feel still the "WOW-factor" on a newly ordered car move on.....it;s to much money not to smile

I don't know how many MP4-12C are in circulation and how many kilometers have been collectively covered, but I would feel like a paying test driver or a guinea pig buying this high value car from a minor and untested manufacturer. It doesn't look that exciting and exotic anyway, something that could be a redeeming feature at that level.

I would understand someone getting  a F Italia, or even better stretching to a F12 instead of the (admittently expensive) Turbo S, but a McLaren??

"Form follows function"

The McLaren is a well built car. Look at the factory, look at the build quality, look at the design. Its fast. Its likely as durable/reliable as a Porsche. McLaren is not a kit car company in the Ukraine.

The McLaren is now gaining traction in the minds of Porsche afficianados. Its awareness in the market place is growing. You only have to look at turbo S pricing and the lack of technical data released about it to question what matters the most to Porsche now.

The Porsche love story is heading towards the wrong ending.

The McLaren MP4-12C is quite an offer but like I said in the past, it is a car for a completely different customer group in my opinion. Those considering the McLaren are very likely extroverted people who don't care if they attract too much attention or actually want to attract attention. A McLaren is a no-go in my neighborhood and my social environment over here in Germany, I could then get an Aventador or a 458 too, it doesn't matter.

The 911 Turbo always had some sort of a special standing over here in Germany (I cannot talk about the rest of the world but it is my understanding that it is similar here and there, especially in Europe): It is the Porsche 911 super sports car but without an exterior which screams "here I come, look at me". This means a lot over here and many use the 911 Turbo as a business car or at least it is registered on a company. A 911, the tax office kind of accepts but a Ferrari or McLaren? Well...questions are asked, doubts are made and I remember my tax advisor telling me a story about a former colleague he went to dinner with, a guy who he worked at the tax investigation unit with. This guy told him that recently, he denied the acceptance of a certain Ferrari (don't know the type) for a business man as a company car because and I quote this guy "he pays over 3000 EUR for the lease per month, this is the same money I make in my job". A Porsche is less offensive, it attracts attention but it is not the exotic a Ferrari, Lamborghini or even McLaren is. So why this may be a problem for those who want to stand out from the crowd, for me and many other people, this is actually a huge advantage.

Speaking of Turbo S and MP4-12C: The McLaren has no back seats, no AWD, no close by service centers. These things alone make the McLaren a no-go for me plus all the stuff I wrote before. This is valid for most Turbo S customers I know, nobody would actually consider a McLaren instead. The McLaren is actually the choice between a Gallardo or a 458. I would however always choose the F12 instead, just my personal preference.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Time will tell. They are not doing well even in F1 these days.

I suggest you change your name too, to JimV8 Twin turbo  

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"Form follows function"

BjoernB:

I would agree ! If you don't feel still the "WOW-factor" on a newly ordered car move on.....it;s to much money not to smile

I actually wonder why someone would make the choice between a MP4-12C and a Turbo S. Doesn't make sense to me. If money isn't really that important and if it needs to be a car with maximum performance, get the F12 instead, which in my opinion also looks better, is kind of less "here I come" and elegant at the same time (not that I am a friend of elegant but the F12 is really the best Ferrari offer right now in my opinion and the F12 also destroys the McLaren performance-wise...0-200 kph in under 9 seconds, Ferrari claims 8.5).

I really like the MP4-12C and I would probably get one if I would live somewhere else (and if I would not have kids) but considering the price difference between the MP4-12C and the F12 over here in Germany, aprox. 50k EUR, I would more likely go for the F12 instead.

The Turbo S is a different product for a different customer base in my opinion.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC, we know all the reasons why the McLaren is a no go car for you. But for other people in other situations living elsewhere it may become a viable alternative to the Turbo S. The last thing you need to do is to use a black McLaren on the school run or to park it in front of your customers eyes.

Build quality wise the Ferrari is way behind it and most new expensive cars. If you ever have the opportunity to examine a 458 up on a service rack with its wheels off you will be amazed they can sell it for the price they do.

I think the MP4-12C is a viable option to a 991 Turbo S. This car has something i dont know exactly how to describe - a techy feel like a Porsche built for the road. Yes it screams more then a 991 but imho not as loud as Lamborghini and Ferrari here i come.

I'll try to get a good deal on a MP4-12C - at latest when my current lease runs out early next year.

JimFlat6:

RC, we know all the reasons why the McLaren is a no go car for you. But for other people in other situations living elsewhere it may become a viable alternative to the Turbo S. The last thing you need to do is to use a black McLaren on the school run or to park it in front of your customers eyes.

Build quality wise the Ferrari is way behind it and most new expensive cars. If you ever have the opportunity to examine a 458 up on a service rack with its wheels off you will be amazed they can sell it for the price they do.

I know. This is why I said that the 991 Turbo S actually appeals to a different type of customer. Most "normal" people usually mistaken the MP4-12C for a Ferrari or Lamborghini, so in my opinion, the typical customer for a McLaren is not the typical Porsche customer.

I agree however on the fact that a McLaren has a certain technical appeal to people, similar to the appeal of Porsche cars. So I guess Porsche will come under more pressure from McLaren, especially after the Turbo S actually hits the streets. Maybe Porsche worries too much about the GT2/GT2RS performance, so they didn't give the Turbo S a better performance, which would be a pity.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

McLaren weaknesses:

• Untested manufacturer. The F1 was an one off, which hasn't been used by its owners. A kind of Press hype.
• The styling is not exciting or arresting for an aspiring exotic. Too generic and  Lotus-like with funny doors.
• The after sales support is meagre to say the least. 
• Financially, I don't know how strong McLaren is but long term future is not so guaranteed. If the Formula One  team gets into a Williams-like slump, the road car business will suffer too and even become extinct.
• I don't like Ron Dennis 

To over simplify matters at that elevated price level, I wouldn't experiment. F12, or 458 if you want something expensive and really special and Turbo S or R8 if you want real world performance at a more affordable price.

"Form follows function"

JimFlat6:

RC, we know all the reasons why the McLaren is a no go car for you. But for other people in other situations living elsewhere it may become a viable alternative to the Turbo S. The last thing you need to do is to use a black McLaren on the school run or to park it in front of your customers eyes.

Build quality wise the Ferrari is way behind it and most new expensive cars. If you ever have the opportunity to examine a 458 up on a service rack with its wheels off you will be amazed they can sell it for the price they do.

Whats wrong with 458 internals?

sportcars-history.com

reginos:

McLaren weaknesses:

• Untested manufacturer. The F1 was an one off, which hasn't been used by its owners. A kind of Press hype.
• The styling is not exciting or arresting for an aspiring exotic. Too generic and  Lotus-like with funny doors.
• The after sales support is meagre to say the least. 
• Financially, I don't know how strong McLaren is but long term future is not so guaranteed. If the Formula One  team gets into a Williams-like slump, the road car business will suffer too and even become extinct.
• I don't like Ron Dennis 

To over simplify matters at that elevated price level, I wouldn't experiment. F12, or 458 if you want something expensive and really special and Turbo S or R8 if you want real world performance at a more affordable price.

The latest Sport Auto test of the 12C Spider is actually quite positive, Sport Auto loves the Spider.

They even claim that Ferrari and Lamborghini always reject comparison tests with McLaren, which, if true, would be quite embarrassing for these companies. I just hope that Porsche doesn't do the same but frankly, I do not see a direct competitor right now at Porsche when it comes to straight line performance.

0-100 kph in 3.3 seconds...not enough to beat the 991 Turbo S but 0-200 kph in 9.3 seconds, one second faster than the factory claim for the 991 Turbo S. 

The 991 Turbo S is the benchmark? In what category? Keep in mind that I ordered one, so I'm not trying to bash it. Yes, nobody has tested the Turbo S yet, so maybe it will hit 0-200 kph in 9.9 seconds and maybe it will be faster on the track or the same with street tires (the 12C Spider did 1.09,2 min. on PZero Corsa tires in Hockenheim) but still, McLaren really puts a lot of pressure on the "competition", no doubt about it.

I would prefer the MP4-12C over the 458, performance-wise but I would certainly take the F12 over the MP4-12C. However, comparing the price tag of the F12 and the 12C Spider, maybe I would choose the Spider. Maybe.

Porsche is quite in a difficult position here with the Turbo S, especially since they raised the price tag of the car.

Yes, the 991 GT2 and especially the GT2 RS will be faster than the Turbo S but then, why does Porsche advertise the...benchmark? Sorry, I don't get it. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Figures, above a certain high benchmark which all these cars easily exceed are not so crucial,  ouside the circle of magazines, drag strip heroes and some autobahn racers. 

Perhaps, 99% of buyers of such high value cars treat their purchases as emotional. Unfortunately, in the case of McLaren the figures might  prosper but there is no emotion or charisma (besides the other question marks).

The fact that even McLaren have managed to captivate some cars fans, proves that Porsche are missing a great opportunity in refusing to enter this niche.

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"Form follows function"

The issues with McLaren quality are overdone. I have several friends with them and they suffer no more problems than 458s or 911s. The issues are all minor and certainly smaller than the PCCB issues I had with my GT2 (or the replacement gearbox it had under warranty), or the IMS/RMS issues so well reported in many 911s.

McLaren designed the car and assemble it, but like a lot of manufacturers these days, the vast bulk of the car's parts are made by others under contract. The engine is made by Ricardo and the gearbox by Graziano, both well proven in their capabilities. Most of the electrics and components are sourced from the same specialist suppliers who sell to everyone else.

I do agree it's a slightly different market segment from a 911 Turbo though, in terms of both image and practicality (2 seats).

That said the people I know with them use them as daily drivers as they would a 911 Turbo, not as a weekend car as most 458s are.

I am not sure if the new width of the Turbo doesn't also screem here I come - at least looking from the backside it's going to be wide - same with the new Airintakes on the side - I guess only on the "autobahn" from the backview mirror it will be equally "flashy" as a normal 991.... - just yesterday I saw a black McLaren and I had to look twice to disdinguish it from a Exige or Evora - I think it's much more stealth than a 458 which usually come in flashy colors.

BjoernB:

I am not sure if the new width of the Turbo doesn't also screem here I come - at least looking from the backside it's going to be wide - same with the new Airintakes on the side - I guess only on the "autobahn" from the backview mirror it will be equally "flashy" as a normal 991.... - just yesterday I saw a black McLaren and I had to look twice to disdinguish it from a Exige or Evora - I think it's much more stealth than a 458 which usually come in flashy colors.

The 991 Turbo S is, like most Porsche, color sensitive. If I order a red or yellow one...well...it screams "here I come", agreed. Other colors maybe not that much. Yes, the 991 Turbo is pretty wide but I'm not so sure this is really a problem. People are used to the classic 911 shape, same as they are used to the classic Ferrari shape (308, 360, 430, 458...). Yes, the McLaren, especially in black, looks pretty stealth, wonderful color for Germany or other countries with social acceptance issues.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Let's compare apples to apples,the base price of Mclaren is $70k higher then 991TTS here in US.

Comparing used,depreciated,ordered and deflowered by some other guy car to a brand new,virgin one does not make sense to most of us here.

For regular,daily use,Porsche has no peer in practicality,ease of use and full performance accessibility that ANY Ferrari or Mclaren can't even dream of.

The latter one has very small cabin and the stupid door is mounted at an idiotic angle that any normal sized guy has to make an origami of himself when entering or exiting.

Makes you look like a real schmuck when in public and embarrassing to your wife/girlfriend when she wears some sexy outfit.

Yes,on paper it may have slightly better numbers but in real world the story is totally different.....

Just my 2 cents.......(and I am a long time Ferrari guy......)

absent:

Let's compare apples to apples,the base price of Mclaren is $70k higher then 991TTS here in US.

Comparing used,depreciated,ordered and deflowered by some other guy car to a brand new,virgin one does not make sense to most of us here.

For regular,daily use,Porsche has no peer in practicality,ease of use and full performance accessibility that ANY Ferrari or Mclaren can't even dream of.

The latter one has very small cabin and the stupid door is mounted at an idiotic angle that any normal sized guy has to make an origami of himself when entering or exiting.

Makes you look like a real schmuck when in public and embarrassing to your wife/girlfriend when she wears some sexy outfit.

Yes,on paper it may have slightly better numbers but in real world the story is totally different.....

Just my 2 cents.......(and I am a long time Ferrari guy......)

 

 

 

Interesting points. However, in Germany and other countries, the price difference between a MP4-12C base car and a well optioned 991 Turbo S is not that high, maybe in the 10-15k EUR range. I also heard that McLaren dealers give nice rebates over here but I cannot confirm it. Rebates for the 991 Turbo S are currently in the 3-6% range in Germany, if you are lucky.

I agree, I love the 991 Turbo S for the daily driver capability, even if I won't use it on a daily basis for various reasons (not that I don't want to but things are complicated). I also agree that entering the McLaren is a pain in the a.., it made me feel young though  but my wife hated it ("you drive alone in this...").

Performance? Well...this is where McLaren really nailed it. They put a lot of pressure on Ferrari, Lamborghini and of course...Porsche. Apparently Porsche decided not to try to compete with McLaren on that level but I think this is a mistake. Yes, there will be a much faster 991 GT2 and then a GT2 RS but if Porsche markets and advertises the new 911 Turbo as their benchmark, they have a problem now.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Hmm, while I only have the 997 Turbo S and not the 991, I also have the McLaren, I think I am qualify to add a couple cents haha. I am facing kind of the same choice, not choosing which one to buy but which one to keep when my 918 arrives.

Apart from the constant stares and questions when driving the McLaren, it pretty much behaves like the Turbo S in normal everyday driving, something I can live with driving everyday.

The Porsche does have more cargo room, I can fit 2 sets of golf clubs behind the front seat while I had to put 1 set next to me in the McLaren.

Porsche has the edge with awd in foul weather, but the TC in the McLaren is so good it's a not issue outside of snow. 

Gearbox in the MP4-12C is the exact same one in the 458, they just have different software for obvious reasons. But it pretty feels just like the Porsche one, almost a wash but has a slight edge as it's more eager to downshift when in auto mode, while the one in the Turbo S prefer to hang on to a higher gear for a split second longer.

Build quality is also a wash, panel gaps, fit and finish on both cars are the same, somewhat a surprise, given the MP4-12C is largely hand build car and should be inferior to the more robot intensive build of the Porsche.

Aftersales support is biased towards the Porsche, I am a long time customer of the dealer so naturally I get better service. 

Porsche has more low end grunt but the McLaren just keeps pulling till 8500rpm, I like both.

Like the Porsche, the McLaren is made to be driven everyday and won't complaint, unlike Ferrari which are made to be parked in the garage for fear of break downs and depreciations. Over the last 6 months of ownership, I had conversations with other owners, pretty much everyone pick the MP4-12C over the 458 or traded in a 458 for the McLaren, 3 most common reasons were the doors, it's faster, sick of the Ferrari dealership treatment. 

While I loved both cars, the decision would have been a lot easier for me had the McLaren had conventional doors, I would have kept the Porsche fore sure, but that door. It's so iconic and unique, It's what I felt in love with.  With conventional doors the McLaren would just be like any other normal sports car like the 458 or the Gallardo, one that people won't get emotionally attached.

Yesterday I took the McLaren to pick up my son from school, as it happens another parent also pulled up in a 458 next to me, in any other circumstances all the kids would be gather around his car, not yesterday, no one pays any attention to the 458, as it was invisible and it wasn't there. We had a chat, he told me while he got the car not too long ago he just realized he bought the wrong car. His own son even sat in my car and turn to his dad and said dad can be buy this car instead?

Whoopsy:
 

.

Gearbox in the MP4-12C is the exact same one in the 458, they just have different software for obvious reasons. But it pretty feels just like the Porsche one, almost a wash but has a slight edge as it's more eager to downshift when in auto mode, while the one in the Turbo S prefer to hang on to a higher gear for a split second longer.

Well, it is not the case. DCT in 458 is made by Getrag and the one in MP4-12C is made by Graziano.

Getrag DCT is used in various versions by SLS AMG, FF and F12 Berlinetta as well.

Graziano DCT is used by facelifted R8.

So, difference is actually pretty big. Graziano DCT in MP4-12C use very, very long gearing. Much longer in upper gears then same gearbox(with of course totally different software and ECU) in R8 V10 Plus for example.

Yes, this is little bit off topic, but we need straight fact here.

That's great, I must have another car confused :)

It is oxymoron that whilst many people here either own a MP4 or know someone who owns one, or prefer the MP4 over Ferrari and Porsche, reports in the Press over the last few months suggest that McLaren Group's roadcar arm is losing money as a result of the poor take-up of the MP4 and P1. Around 50% of the expected figures. This situation is already creating a friction between Dennis and his Bahraini co-owners.

At the same time sales of the "slower" 458 go from strength to strength and Porsche's success story continues.

Even if the MP4 were the empirically better car, a fraction  of a second in acceleration to 300 km/h or other similar statistics are totally irrelevant to the vast majority buyers it seems. Too late in history to create a viable brand new supercar marque and more so to create the British Ferrari.

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"Form follows function"

That is a good observation, in real life, a better product doesn't translate to higher sales, iPhone is a perfect example, iPhone is the better phone yet Samsung sells more Galaxy.

Capital outlay for McLaren was enormous, the MPC alone cost 800mil pounds, an education guess puts MP4-12C's sales number around 2500-2700 since launch, that translated to roughly $850mil revenue. Not even close to paying off the building, let alone the other costs associated with the development.

Money is one of the reasons why the P1 is a souped up MP4-12C, most of the initial development cost has been amortized with the MP4-12C program, what they spent on the further development of the components are peanuts.

Ferrari and Porsche is in a different category, they are not startup like McLaren, they are long past the huge initial investment phase, everything is already paid for many times over.

But it's already quite a story for McLaren as a startup to be where they are today, making a superior car from scratch and getting recognized as a legitimate car maker, not some wannabe like Pagani or Koenigsegg.

McLaren have acquired more credibility and goodwill compared to the various limited production supercar brands that have come and gone, due to the F1 car and the F1 Team.

Whether this will prove sufficient for the  McLaren ambitious project to survive  and to become an established roadcar brand, is doubtful IMO. In the 21st century car manufacture is too expensive and complex for a minor independent player. It will be interesting to follow up their fortunes. 

"Form follows function"

Whoopsy:

That is a good observation, in real life, a better product doesn't translate to higher sales, iPhone is a perfect example, iPhone is the better phone yet Samsung sells more Galaxy.

Capital outlay for McLaren was enormous, the MPC alone cost 800mil pounds, an education guess puts MP4-12C's sales number around 2500-2700 since launch, that translated to roughly $850mil revenue. Not even close to paying off the building, let alone the other costs associated with the development.

Money is one of the reasons why the P1 is a souped up MP4-12C, most of the initial development cost has been amortized with the MP4-12C program, what they spent on the further development of the components are peanuts.

Ferrari and Porsche is in a different category, they are not startup like McLaren, they are long past the huge initial investment phase, everything is already paid for many times over.

But it's already quite a story for McLaren as a startup to be where they are today, making a superior car from scratch and getting recognized as a legitimate car maker, not some wannabe like Pagani or Koenigsegg.

 

The numbers make sense.  I received the prospectus of McLaren for funding the automotive side about three years ago and the business model did not make it economically attractive.  However, the MPC is a tremendous car.

reginos:

McLaren have acquired more credibility and goodwill compared to the various limited production supercar brands that have come and gone, due to the F1 car and the F1 Team.

Whether this will prove sufficient for the  McLaren ambitious project to survive  and to become an established roadcar brand, is doubtful IMO. In the 21st century car manufacture is too expensive and complex for a minor independent player. It will be interesting to follow up their fortunes. 

 

 

Have you ever visited the MTC/MPC and seen the investment? I have never seen a car factory like it.