Crown

kudryavchik:

Ferdie:

Wow,

what a great subject. I find it very difficult to answer that, especially since it depends whether these cars are supposed to be stunning to drive, ultimately successful in racing, a milestone in its era or highly innovative during its time. There have been cars that might´ve been a thrill to drive but unreliable, others might´ve been highly innovative but too fragile in its early days... Some innovations might´ve been hugely relevant but spread over a series of models. Colin Chapman´s Team Lotus for example brought some very ingenious ideas that changed F1 until today, but each model in itself might not have the same relevance. I´m also far too uninformed to give a significant opinion about pre-war racecars or F1 of early years as well as CART/IRL. I might have to revise my opinion but here are seven spontaneous choices:

Lotus 72
McLaren MP4
Williams FW14

Porsche 917
Porsche 956/962

Ford GT40
Porsche 911 GT3 Cup

Thank you, Ferdie!

I think that the most important thing in racecar is combination of success, technology, design and who was in competition. Porsche said that the best racing car must win and break into pieces) von Brauchitsch said that there is no win without competition.

Colin Chapman in my opinion is very overrated person, he has adopted lots of things into F1 but those technologies he adopted were created before him. F.e. passive ground effect- auto union streamliner 1938, monocoque- lancia d50, mid engine- benz tropfenwagen. To my opinion Ferdinand Porsche, Rudolf Uhlenhaut, Edmund Rumpler, Jim Hall, Vittorio Jano, Piech are much more Influential persons in this business.

You have written mclaren mp4, which one?

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sportcars-history.com

Cannot agree regarding Colin Chapman, he may not have been the creator but he was the adopter and had the courage to experiment and lead by design.

MY favourite Chapman quote, "Adding power makes you faster on the straights, while subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."

Also Frank Williams deserves some credit for his "active suspension" setup on the Williams FW14B, magnificent piece of kit indeed!

stubenhocker:

kudryavchik:

Ferdie:

Wow,

what a great subject. I find it very difficult to answer that, especially since it depends whether these cars are supposed to be stunning to drive, ultimately successful in racing, a milestone in its era or highly innovative during its time. There have been cars that might´ve been a thrill to drive but unreliable, others might´ve been highly innovative but too fragile in its early days... Some innovations might´ve been hugely relevant but spread over a series of models. Colin Chapman´s Team Lotus for example brought some very ingenious ideas that changed F1 until today, but each model in itself might not have the same relevance. I´m also far too uninformed to give a significant opinion about pre-war racecars or F1 of early years as well as CART/IRL. I might have to revise my opinion but here are seven spontaneous choices:

Lotus 72
McLaren MP4
Williams FW14

Porsche 917
Porsche 956/962

Ford GT40
Porsche 911 GT3 Cup

Thank you, Ferdie!

I think that the most important thing in racecar is combination of success, technology, design and who was in competition. Porsche said that the best racing car must win and break into pieces) von Brauchitsch said that there is no win without competition.

Colin Chapman in my opinion is very overrated person, he has adopted lots of things into F1 but those technologies he adopted were created before him. F.e. passive ground effect- auto union streamliner 1938, monocoque- lancia d50, mid engine- benz tropfenwagen. To my opinion Ferdinand Porsche, Rudolf Uhlenhaut, Edmund Rumpler, Jim Hall, Vittorio Jano, Piech are much more Influential persons in this business.

You have written mclaren mp4, which one?

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sportcars-history.com

Cannot agree regarding Colin Chapman, he may not have been the creator but he was the adopter and had the courage to experiment and lead by design.

MY favourite Chapman quote, "Adding power makes you faster on the straights, while subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."

Also Frank Williams deserves some credit for his "active suspension" setup on the Williams FW14B, magnificent piece of kit indeed!

 

Nobody says that Chapman wasn't the great engineer, but imo his personality a little bit overrated. He wasn't the only engineer that changed the world of motorsport. Many sources call him not an adopter but creator, thats not 100% truth.

Mine is horsepower sells cars, torque moves it ;)

FW15C was the ultimate edition one. FW14 chassis originally wasn`t designed to couple with active suspension. They have "glued" AS to FW14B but FW15 was the car that was 100% complete. I think it was engineered by Patrick Head...

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sportcars-history.com

As astonishing as those active cars were, kudos have to go to BA and McDonnel Douglas for their military spec software! 

REALZEUS:

As astonishing as those active cars were, kudos have to go to BA and McDonnel Douglas for their military spec software! 

As an IMSA GTP cars

sportcars-history.com

kudryavchik:

REALZEUS:

As astonishing as those active cars were, kudos have to go to BA and McDonnel Douglas for their military spec software! 

As an IMSA GTP cars

Right.

Also the reason that SF could not compete and was arguing against these systems.

REALZEUS:

kudryavchik:

REALZEUS:

As astonishing as those active cars were, kudos have to go to BA and McDonnel Douglas for their military spec software! 

As an IMSA GTP cars

Right.

Also the reason that SF could not compete and was arguing against these systems.

Has ferrari installed AS?

sportcars-history.com

Tried to but without much success really. Seems that Alenia and Aermacchi were not very accommodating towards the Scuderia.

New info about budgets. 50 mil euro only for Le Mans. More than 100 mil euro for World Championship. Of course talking about manufacturers. Its interesting, what are sponsorship amounts. In f1 half of the year budget is taken by sponsorship.

sportcars-history.com

Some good pictures of 550 Spyder from Moscow International Automobile Exhibition 2012.

P.S. If it will be interesting I can post all the pictures from exhibition.

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sportcars-history.com

Needless to say that Porsche pavilion had the greatest attendance on exhibition)

Great car, Diamond of exhibition, as GT2RS 2 years ago and Peugeot 908 FAP 4 years ago)

sportcars-history.com

Amazing lap by Mercedes C11 at SPA!

Acceleration figures are the same as for todays F1 cars!!! 0-200 kph around 5.5 sec!!!

sportcars-history.com

kudryavchik:

Amazing lap by Mercedes C11 at SPA!

Acceleration figures are the same as for todays F1 cars!!! 0-200 kph around 5.5 sec!!!

The F1 cars back then were much quicker though.

PS: Today's top speed at Monza was 345 km/h achieved by D' Ambrosio using a 750 HP Ferrari engine. Back in 2004, the 1000 HP Ferrari F2004 hit some 375 km/h. We are going backwards in terms of speed. 

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FERRARI RULES!!!

REALZEUS:

kudryavchik:

Amazing lap by Mercedes C11 at SPA!

Acceleration figures are the same as for todays F1 cars!!! 0-200 kph around 5.5 sec!!!

The F1 cars back then were much quicker though.

PS: Today's top speed at Monza was 345 km/h achieved by D' Ambrosio using a 750 HP Ferrari engine. Back in 2004, the 1000 HP Ferrari F2004 hit some 375 km/h. We are going backwards in terms of speed. 

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FERRARI RULES!!!

Elder c9 merc went 410 on Mulsanne straigth and what? if it needed to go 1 and half hours of GP distance it could go far beyond tyre abilities... Boost pressure...

F1 cars  in 1991 were quicker on corners due to mass, top speed 80 kph lower, acceleration the same, maybe even worse a bit. Also, because on practices nobody tried hard as in F1, its hard to say about real quali pace.

Sorry Realzeus, but where is the parallel between that i have posted and you answered:) that car is from 1991 that accelerates as today f1 car, 3.3 secs from 100 to 200.

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sportcars-history.com

Really? Mulsanne straight? Isn't that like from here to Mars?  As you well know, top speed is track dependent and aerodynamically limited due to downforce levels. In ovals, Indy cars hit nearly 400 km/h, having much less power than an F1 car.

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FERRARI RULES!!!

REALZEUS:

Really? Mulsanne straight? Isn't that like from here to Mars?  As you well know, top speed is track dependent and aerodynamically limited due to downforce levels. In ovals, Indy cars hit nearly 400 km/h, having much less power than an F1 car.

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FERRARI RULES!!!

Normal 5 km straight, nothing wrong))) great old school track as old nurburgring. Infortunately monza, spa and hockenheim were spoiled. Today German Tilke crap is on top unfortunately....

Yes, much depend on gearing and aero setup. But do you remember bar honda effort to break 400 kph zone? Too much modifications, car is undrivable and surely will not last even 20 mins on track due to overheating(small radiator zones for lower drag). F1 cars have too much drag, it is their illness from the start and engines that could not last long at 100% throttle. Do you know why mulsanne straight was shortened? Security? Partly... It was shortened before 3,5 litre engines introduction, fia and aco wanted f1 engines last 24 hours distance, so they have decreased the output and lowered speeds cutting long straights. And to make new cars competitive... they ballasted old cars with 100 kgs...Actually talking about mulsanne straight, group c cars reached top speed on 3 km mark, on fuji nissan recorded 400 kph too. In 1990 group c cars went around 375-380 before cornering. F.e. nissan rc90 on quali tune.

There were no cars that were faster than group c and can am from 300 to 400 mark. 

About cart... When these cars went more than 400 on fontana and indy they had more than 1000 hp turboed monsters behind the driver. Also these cars were much better adopted to such speed than f1 that is projected to go no more than 350. Much lower drag, wider track, fuel, more rigid chassis... Those cars were more powerful than f1 of that time actually. At least 150 hp more... Real monsters...

sportcars-history.com

I was referring to today's Indy cars that have about 650 hp and yet do nearly 240 mph. That speed of course is not their actual top speed; with a longer straight they could do even more. 

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FERRARI RULES!!!

REALZEUS:

I was referring to today's Indy cars that have about 650 hp and yet do nearly 340 mph. That speed of course is not their actual top speed; with a longer straight they could do even more. 

Ok, anyway they have less drag, even special oval packages. Very near to top... Considering their lower drag and 700 hp vs 750 f1 they have the same top speed now.

sportcars-history.com

sportcars-history.com

sportcars-history.com

sportcars-history.com

How come no one mentioned Maserati 450S,famous for winning all the races it managed to finish?

Interesting pyramids by Porsche...

Can anybody tell me the reason that F1 is on top of Porsche Motorsports pyramid even with Ferrari on the first image?

After watching this images all the porsche 20000 or more wins melt down...Especially in Le Mans...

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sportcars-history.com

kudryavchik:

Interesting pyramids by Porsche...

Can anybody tell me the reason that F1 is on top of Porsche Motorsports pyramid even with Ferrari on the first image?

After watching this images all the porsche 20000 or more wins melt down...Especially in Le Mans...

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sportcars-history.com

Because that is the truth lads! There is a reason that F1 is called the pinnacle of motorsports! And like it or not Ferrari is THE F1 team.  If I were Porsche's Marketing director I would like to correlate "my" brand to the best racing brand in the world. Apparently the Marketing Dept of Porsche thinks like me. 

FERRARI RULES!!!

REALZEUS:

kudryavchik:

Interesting pyramids by Porsche...

Can anybody tell me the reason that F1 is on top of Porsche Motorsports pyramid even with Ferrari on the first image?

After watching this images all the porsche 20000 or more wins melt down...Especially in Le Mans...

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sportcars-history.com

 

Because that is the truth lads! There is a reason that F1 is called the pinnacle of motorsports! And like it or not Ferrari is THE F1 team.  If I were Porsche's Marketing director I would like to correlate "my" brand to the best racing brand in the world. Apparently the Marketing Dept of Porsche thinks like me. 

FERRARI RULES!!!

If you were Porsche marketing director you would be fired)))

I am glad that you are happy;)

sportcars-history.com

REALZEUS:

kudryavchik:

Interesting pyramids by Porsche...

Can anybody tell me the reason that F1 is on top of Porsche Motorsports pyramid even with Ferrari on the first image?

After watching this images all the porsche 20000 or more wins melt down...Especially in Le Mans...

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sportcars-history.com

 

Because that is the truth lads! There is a reason that F1 is called the pinnacle of motorsports! And like it or not Ferrari is THE F1 team.  If I were Porsche's Marketing director I would like to correlate "my" brand to the best racing brand in the world. Apparently the Marketing Dept of Porsche thinks like me. 

FERRARI RULES!!!

You seem to have overlooked the fact that the "pinnacle" in that graphic represents the costs of putting a racing driver's butt into a racing car seat, and its intention is obviously to suggest that Porsche gets more value for money by staying out of Formula 1. 

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fritz

Realzeus, I have expected you will come on honey to post this)))) http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2005/7/3327.html

German manufacturers have a long and distinguished history of participating in Formula One racing. Before the Second World War the Auto Union and Mercedes works teams were dominant forces in Grand Prix racing. Currently both BMW and Mercedes have invested large amounts in technical partnerships with the Williams and McLaren team respectively - with BMW set to take full control of the Sauber team next year.

But what of Germany’s most famous sportscar manufacturer? Before the Hockenheim race starts this Sunday the crowd will, as at every Formula One meeting, have their appetites whetted by several support events - with the most action-packed often being the Porsche Supercup. It's the closest that the world's most successful sportscar maker gets to Formula One racing at the moment - but a quick flick through the history books reveals that the company has had considerable association with the sport over the years.

Porsche has no shortage of racing success, the company claiming more than 23,000 victories using its cars in different forms of competition - including no fewer than 16 wins in the Le Mans 24 Hours endurance race. The company made its Grand Prix debut in Germany in 1957, albeit using Formula Two cars. It then moved up to Formula One, using a development of its air-cooled flat four road-car engine to moderate success, including a single victory as a constructor, taken by Dan Gurney in 1962. Later on, engine regulation changes left the company convinced that it would be unable to make a success of its trademark flat four configuration so it withdrew fully from Formula One in 1964 to concentrate on sportscar and endurance racing.

In the following decades Porsche grew substantially as a company, establishing the reputation it still enjoys for making outstanding rear- and mid-engined sportscars. It was also one of the pioneers of commercial turbocharging with the original road-going 911 Turbo of 1975. By the early 1980s, as Formula One racing increasingly turned to turbocharging, Porsche's expertise in forced induction was suddenly very valuable, and the company was persuaded to re-enter Formula One racing as an engine supplier to the McLaren team (with its engines badged TAG) in 1983. 

It was an inspired decision - Porsche's motors dominated the following season, propelling McLaren to 12 victories in 16 races and taking Niki Lauda to his final world championship. Drivers' and constructors' titles followed the following year, too - although by 1986 the supreme Honda engine managed to take Williams to the constructors' crown, although the Porsche/TAG motor was still strong enough to land Alain Prost the drivers' championship for McLaren.

At the end of 1986 Porsche withdrew from the sport again to concentrate on other motorsport activities, leaving McLaren to adopt the Honda engine. One further dalliance followed, supplying V12 engines to the Footwork team in 1991. The project flopped - and apart from support races, Porsche hasn't been involved in a Grand Prix since.

Further Formula One involvement is considered fairly unlikely. Although Porsche is a highly profitable car maker it is also relatively small compared to the likes of BMW and Mercedes who put huge financial investment into the sport. It would be great to hear a Porsche exhaust note in the pitlane again, but it's not something that's expected to happen any time soon…

Ferrari company thinks different))) They think like me)))

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sportcars-history.com

Anyway, Great fault by Porsche Marketing Dept... For Porsche Protos were the pinnacle in every term...It is like if Mclaren would say, Le Mans is pinnacle for us, we won in 1995))) Once. That was the greatest success)))

sportcars-history.com

kudryavchik:

At the end of 1986 Porsche withdrew from the sport again to concentrate on other motorsport activities, leaving McLaren to adopt the Honda engine.

FWIW, it was the end of 1987.

fritz

fritz:

kudryavchik:

At the end of 1986 Porsche withdrew from the sport again to concentrate on other motorsport activities, leaving McLaren to adopt the Honda engine.

FWIW, it was the end of 1987.

Yep, fault of F1 marketing dept. Hate bad marketing...

sportcars-history.com

kudryavchik:

Anyway, Great fault by Porsche Marketing Dept... For Porsche Protos were the pinnacle in every term...It is like if Mclaren would say, Le Mans is pinnacle for us, we won in 1995))) Once. That was the greatest success)))

IMHO The reason for Ferrari symbolizing the F1 in this pyramide is in the numbers :

Ferrari 1950-2012: 842 races started (second McLaren with 715), Ferrari 219 total wins (McLaren 180)  etc etc. By most metrics Ferrari has been successful in F1 , in some periods more and in some others less.

If I was (sadly I am not) a Porsche Mkt guy I would use as well a Ferrari F1 in order to effectively visualize F1.

911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant